Single 2++ GMNDK Option

[Ninjoe42]

So I'm wondering about the possibility of sticking to a single GMNDK that is kept under Prognosticars protection and Sanctuary for as long as possible.

 

I know most people go with more then 1 GMNDK, but my reasoning is that with 2 GMNDKs on the board, the opponent is still presented with a viable target. I'm sure many of you have experienced the speed with which a 4++ GMNDK can be put down when it becomes the focus of anti-armor fire.

 

So my theory is that with a single 2++ GMNDK, we can deny the opponent an efficient anti-armor target, while using it to clean house as it does.

 

Curious to thoughts on this.

[Gentlemanloser]

The next mixed GK/AC list I'm eager to try (no 40k due to holiday in Lanzarote!), the GK component is 1 GMNDK and 3 Doomglaives.

 

On board presence (no DSing the GMNDK), with 4 Denies.

 

3x AC Biker Shield Captains to advance and tie up units.  Allarus SC, 3x Allarus Terminators and an Allarus Vexila for Deep Strike.

 

And a beta Achilus Contemptor for backfield.

 

a 2++ GMNDK and his Doomgliave bodyguard for midfield.

 

13 minis, but damn I hope they will be tough to move.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I regularly do that combo on my Warlord GMDK. It's great, but Mortal Wounds make it completely meaningless.

 

I do take two because exactly as you mention, one is going to get all the attention while the other gets ignored. So if I fail 'Sanctuary' I still have redundancy should my first GMDK fall.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm hoping to overwhelm my opponent with MW targets.

 

Should they Smite the Bikers?  The Allarus?  The GMNDK?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd be more concerned with getting tied up by screening units. Only the Biker Captains can disengage freely, everyone else gets shut down by countercharges (can't activate if you back out).

 

They're probably going to Smite the Captains anyway, they are the biggest threat after all.

[InquisitorBlack]

Am I missing something or is this not possible due to the FAQ?

The Sanctuary FAQ includes wording that specifies the +1 invuln is to a maximum of 3++

[Gentlemanloser]

Sactuary gives you a 3++ Save.

 

Heed gives you a +1 to save *rolls*.  In essence giving you a 2++ Save.

 

The only thing the Sanctuary change did was to make it unusable on Draigo (And an Index Libby with SS).  Draigo can still have a 2++ thorugh Heed (well technically a 3++ Save with +1 to the roll...).

[InquisitorBlack]

Wow, it does too. Damn, that changes everything... so does that mean we start our DKGM's on the board so they can pop it turn 1 and then gate in?

[Ninjoe42]

That's what I'm considering, I haven't encountered much Mortal Wound spam so I don't know how much can really be leveled at him.

 

Right so we can't use Heed on deepstriking units correct? Cause they're not on the board?

[Corvus Fortis]

Nothing forbids using stratagems on units that are not on board. 

 

The problem with 2++ GMNDK is that he's just ignored. That means, that enemy will target stormraven, razorbacks, even strikes with his AV. And another thing I just realized - with new beta rules GMNDK cannot screen our smaller characters. It was cool to use him as a supershield - 2++ invuln 12 wounds t6 target which you cannot kill, and Draigo, Apothecary, Ancient and Capt hide behind. And all this will charge the next turn. 

 

So, 2++ GMNDK is tricky. Two 3++ GMNDKs will draw more fire and though less likely to survive, if they tank it, you are a winner. So a bit of gamble. But GMNDK in 2++ will survive almost anything so unlikely to be shot at at all.

[Gentlemanloser]

They can only know 1 Santic power.  So someone else will have to Gate them.

 

I've just started walking mine up the board.  With chaff screens, there's not much difference in distance.

 

Usually there's a 24" no mans land, so with DS you're 27" from your board edge.  Just walking (if you deploy at the edge of your DZ at 12") gets you 20" in.

 

Sure, no first turn charge, but I find them too unreliable anyway.  And you're still in bubble range if you want to DS some Strikes infront and get the reroll 1s aura.

 

(Different Deployment Maps will change all this ofc!)

 

Edit: As for MW spam, I *always* forget Truesilver Armour and the 5+++ it gives versus MW... /sigh

Edited February 27, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[InquisitorBlack]

Nothing forbids using stratagems on units that are not on board. 

 

The problem with 2++ GMNDK is that he's just ignored. That means, that enemy will target stormraven, razorbacks, even strikes with his AV. And another thing I just realized - with new beta rules GMNDK cannot screen our smaller characters. It was cool to use him as a supershield - 2++ invuln 12 wounds t6 target which you cannot kill, and Draigo, Apothecary, Ancient and Capt hide behind. And all this will charge the next turn. 

 

So, 2++ GMNDK is tricky. Two 3++ GMNDKs will draw more fire and though less likely to survive, if they tank it, you are a winner. So a bit of gamble. But GMNDK in 2++ will survive almost anything so unlikely to be shot at at all.

 

 

I realise that nothing forbids us from using strategems on a unit in reserves, but is something that people are actually doing? I know TOs that would rule against this if a few people kicked up a stink.

 

In other words, are there precedents in other known plays/strategies that use strategems on off the board units? I don't mean to be contrary, I'd just like to solidify the merits of this play before I invest heavily in it

[Gentlemanloser]

That's a great question for the OR!

 

I think the general consensus might be you can't do anything with a model that isn't on board.  Including Strats.

[Ninjoe42]

Nothing forbids using stratagems on units that are not on board.

 

The problem with 2++ GMNDK is that he's just ignored. That means, that enemy will target stormraven, razorbacks, even strikes with his AV. And another thing I just realized - with new beta rules GMNDK cannot screen our smaller characters. It was cool to use him as a supershield - 2++ invuln 12 wounds t6 target which you cannot kill, and Draigo, Apothecary, Ancient and Capt hide behind. And all this will charge the next turn.

 

So, 2++ GMNDK is tricky. Two 3++ GMNDKs will draw more fire and though less likely to survive, if they tank it, you are a winner. So a bit of gamble. But GMNDK in 2++ will survive almost anything so unlikely to be shot at at all.

See I'm ok with him being fully ignored, cause then I have a full hp dreadknight on their side of the board that can get some guaranteed charges. Careful or delayed deployment could mean an extremely limited target pool

[InquisitorBlack]

That's a great question for the OR!

 

I think the general consensus might be you can't do anything with a model that isn't on board.  Including Strats.

I think I agree GL, I'll post it up later tonight unless someone gets in first >_>

 

I would love to be proven wrong (or incentivised otherwise) but until then I don't think I'd use the strategem on an 'off the board' DK.

 

 

 

Nothing forbids using stratagems on units that are not on board.

 

The problem with 2++ GMNDK is that he's just ignored. That means, that enemy will target stormraven, razorbacks, even strikes with his AV. And another thing I just realized - with new beta rules GMNDK cannot screen our smaller characters. It was cool to use him as a supershield - 2++ invuln 12 wounds t6 target which you cannot kill, and Draigo, Apothecary, Ancient and Capt hide behind. And all this will charge the next turn.

 

So, 2++ GMNDK is tricky. Two 3++ GMNDKs will draw more fire and though less likely to survive, if they tank it, you are a winner. So a bit of gamble. But GMNDK in 2++ will survive almost anything so unlikely to be shot at at all.

See I'm ok with him being fully ignored, cause then I have a full hp dreadknight on their side of the board that can get some guaranteed charges. Careful or delayed deployment could mean an extremely limited target pool

 

I agree that him being fully ignored is fine. He is a beast in both shooting and combat and moves relatively fast, I think it's a big mistake for an opponent to just let him 'do his thang' unhindered. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by InquisitorBlack

[Gentlemanloser]

Ninja'd! ;)

[Ninjoe42]

Ninja'd! ;)

No, its NinjOE'd :P

[Corvus Fortis]

Rulebook only states that model's abilities doesn't work when they are in transports, buildings, etc. HtP only says "pick a character". I was told, that is how they played it on large tournaments. And everyone I played with were OK with it. I see no reason to hinder ourselves, just because it ''feels wrong", until official errata is made by GW. 

[Helycon]

I'd just stop playing against that opponent. It feels badly like wanting to game the system.

[Gentlemanloser]

There are also numerous strats that target units in reserves.

 

Like webway portal.

[Helycon]

You mean the Drukhari one where they put stuff in reserve before the battle? Worded specifically to be used during deployment, so not targeting anything in reserve, but before you actually set up that specific unit in reserve.

 

All the similar ones are worded the exact some, so that doesn't really work.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Helycon

[Capt. Mytre]

The rules describe what you can and cannot do. Unless there's a universal rule saying what targets are valid for stratagems, then there are no general limits that stop you from buffing a unit who deployed off the table.

 

Also remember that "Reserves" is not longer a thing, except in Narrative play. It's now called "Reinforcements", and they are deployed elsewhere, such as above the battlefield, in a teleportarium chamber, in the warp etc. The rules for Reinforcements are clear as to what limitations they have, stratagems aren't included there.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes Hel. Point Was there's precedence for strats working on units 'off the board'.

[Ninjoe42]

I'll admit it's a bit vague, but it certainly FEELS like it shouldn't be able to target a character in the teleporter. It probably should be able to, but as is it seems pretty questionable

[Shagah]

Heed it says can be used at the start of the turn, reinforcements arrive generally at the end of the movement phase, at least ours do.

 

It also says "you can use command points to use a Stratagem before or during the battle" which is very loose, my interpretation being 'in line with the limitations outlined in the stratagem'. Using that interpretation, and there being no restriction on where the 'user' is in Heed, and it being known that stratagems can be applied to reinforcements in other circumstances (normally specified), I would be hard pressed to disagree with someone who wanted to do this.

 

There are stratagems that are only used before battle starts, there are stratagems that can only be used by a unit in reinforcements, but most stratagems specify which phase and even when in each phase they are used.  Those that are not are given very open restrictions to work within.  Heed is one of those (as is Wisdom of the Ancients and Finest hour), so I would say technically speaking it can be used before arrival from Deep Strike, not because the rules don't say you can't, but because the rules very loosely say you can.