Honour Guard? What Gives?

[zero88]

Why don't more people use Honour Guard? I'm looking over their stat line and besides the one weakness of mobility I see nothing but positive. Their 2+ save means against most Heavy Weapons (-3) they are still getting a 5+ save, so that Essentially acts as an invulnerable save in my opinion. They have the same 2W and 2A as Terminators and Primaris, and they all carry the power weapon of your choice and the trust Bolter. For the cherry on top they still only take up a single transport slot, so a squad plus character can very manageably be any transport.

 

So what say you? Does anyone use them regularly? If so, what have your experiences been?

[SydonianDragoon404]

I don't take them because of their max squad size of two. If I could take a squad of 10 I would try it. 

[Firepower]

Unless it's been FAQ'd, the only power weapon they can use is the Ax.  Can't rightly say I know why I don't see them pop up in many lists, really.  It may have something to do with a lack of versatility.  Again, unless it's been rewritten, the Codex gives them a set load out with no alternative options.  With restrictions like that, they're rather clearly meant to do their implied job as meat shields, rather than pose any serious threat in combat.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Firepower

[Schlitzaf]

Firepower Indexs give them, Ax, Maul or PowSword.

[Firepower]

Firepower Indexs give them, Ax, Maul or PowSword.

 

Still, rather weak compared to Relic Blades, Hammers, etc.  4 Power Weapon attacks don't come across as especially threatening, so you'd have to take them in bulk.  You'll burn up elites slots (which are already a competitive category) quickly that way, meaning more detachments, meaning a quickly climbing HQ tax.  Unless I'm missing something, of course.

[Schlitzaf]

Unless I am too FP. I see it good way to reasonably burn 52-54 Points to protect a character over a Company Veterans who are 54 Points for 4 but no Power weapons, and worse saves, but double raw attack value. Basically if you 50ish Points and a spare elite slot and 2 slots in a transport. They make good bodyguards for mid teir characters like our Champion or a Castallen.

 

I wouldn’t ever use any myself but that is best I imagine they do role wise

Edited February 28, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[crazyterran]

Probably because it takes an entire vanguard detachment to get an old single squad of them.

[Firepower]

Hm, technical question: if a HQ loses 2 wounds to a overcharged plasma shot or something similar, and Company Vets/Honor Guard successfully intercede on their 2+, do you lose one model per shot, or is it directly related to wounds?  Like, a 2 Damage shot hits a boss, Company Vets intercede.  With 1 wound each, do you lose 2 or 1 Company Vets?  If you only take it on one model, then Honor Guard have very little purpose by comparison.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Firepower

[Ishagu]

Really, really poor damage in combat. They are pretty worthless, imo. I tried running a few early on in 8th.

[Ipsen]

When you look at them in isolation they aren't very efficient but really I've always seen them as a modifier to a hq's base stats. C:SM don't really have big monstrous cc characters but treating a character plus honour guard as one pool of wounds and one pool of attacks with a decreasing attack profile it bridges the gap some what making your character much harder to kill and giving him more bite in combat.

[Ishagu]

In the last game I used them, unfortunately, they simply gave away an easy firs blood... a Unit of two, t4 models with no inul :-/

[Margulix]

I played a lot with HG in 7 and they are really bad in 8th compared to their old self. 5 attacks on charge per model vs two. Also squad of 10 vs squad of two.

 

As pool to character... dunno. It is hard to charge a lot of diffrent squaeds at once, so... your hg may attack while charater was left out of CC for example.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Margulix

[Ipsen]

I played a lot with HG in 7 and they are really bad in 8th compared to their old self. 5 attacks on charge per model vs two. Also squad of 10 vs squad of two.

 

As pool to character... dunno. It is hard to charge a lot of diffrent squaeds at once, so... your hg may attack while charater was left out of CC for example.

 

There's this thing called heroic intervention. It can go the other way around but the character can't really be left out. If the honour guard are in combat he heroically jumps to their defence. As they are only 2 models they can't block him either.

 

In the last game I used them, unfortunately, they simply gave away an easy firs blood... a Unit of two, t4 models with no inul :-/

 

A footslogging cc character without a transport?

[Ishagu]

I was using him for aura effects.

[Acebaur]

I was using him for aura effects.

 

Then yeah honor guard would have been a bad choice because they are better for a CC character. Company vets can take combi weapons that can actually benefit from the characters buff. 

 

But HG in 8th are pretty bad IMO mostly because they lost a massive amount of damage and squad size and gained a paltry 1W each for this. Company Veterans are a better more versatile buy IMO now able to take both good guns and CC weapons.  

[Margulix]

 

I played a lot with HG in 7 and they are really bad in 8th compared to their old self. 5 attacks on charge per model vs two. Also squad of 10 vs squad of two.

 

As pool to character... dunno. It is hard to charge a lot of diffrent squaeds at once, so... your hg may attack while charater was left out of CC for example.

 

There's this thing called heroic intervention. It can go the other way around but the character can't really be left out. If the honour guard are in combat he heroically jumps to their defence. As they are only 2 models they can't block him either.

 

 

As a BT player, i want MY units to charge, not the other way around.

[Schlitzaf]

Thinking on them more, the more I see them as a 50 point fill unit. If you have nothing better to buy, you may as well buy one of these kind of choices

[Acebaur]

Thinking on them more, the more I see them as a 50 point fill unit. If you have nothing better to buy, you may as well buy one of these kind of choices

 

That's a good point, but for 5 points more, I'm pretty much always going to take an Apothecary instead who provides much better value

[Ishagu]

I think they are actually 52 points. 38 points more for 5 Sternguard? 3 points more for an Apothecary... or an Inquisitor?:-P

[Schlitzaf]

The index allows you to equip them with Swords, Mauls and also apparently Relic Blades

[Ishagu]

Relic Blade is interesting but the costs would be very high at that point I feel.

[Schlitzaf]

It’s 50 Points to protect mid teir combat characters. They are good in Rhino Rush Styled Lists espacially. Black Templars are best in that regard because Heavy/Special/Special. Followed by something like Imperial Fists or Iron Hands with BolterBro Tacticals. Honor Gaurd are the two of the one two punch of firefight units.

 

Also just aside, 4 Company Veterans are 64 Points. So Honor Gaurd provide more wounds to characters for cheaper. I am not saying they are good, they are just cheap fill units to help Rhino based Firefight Lists. Being 14 points cheaper than a Liutanent w/ Sword. Providing same number of damage (4 on 3 vs 3 on 2). Better in combat defense (2+ and 3+). But no Aura.

 

A champion of either stripe might be better for that role, I have no idea

[Ebon Hand]

Honor guard are great. I think all the talk of their "poor" stats are really missing their cost to wound ratio and comparing them to past editions is just going to cloud your judgement.

 

With power axes (they can take a variety of power weapons via the index so this can go down to 25 with swords) each Honor guard is 26 points. However they have 2 wounds, so break that down further and you're paying 13 points per wound which is the same as a regular power armored Marine. That means that, for FREE, you are getting a 2+ save and a power axe plus the ability to act as ablative wounds for a character. Vs 2 Marines, you are losing 1 bolter but the defensive stats are there. Any list can cut a few Marines and add them in their place to protect your important characters. Company vets are 16 points base, so you are paying 3 points for their extra attack, and that's before factoring in weapons.

 

Yes HG "only" have 2 attacks, but that's what you paid for and you're already getting a bargain! They can't take thunderhammers, but why would you even want to? You want to hit on 4s and then sacrifice these now expensive models to your character? The Chapter champion is your damage dealer. He was part of the Honor Guard previously along with the Ancient. I give my Chapter Champion a burning blade for a relatively cheap beatstick. Or, if you're cool, just bring the Emperor's Champion.

 

These guys aren't meant to be fighting monsters, they are meant to be guarding your character while HE fights monsters with his thunderhammer. You take wounds on your character with his Storm shield and pass off any that make it through to the Honor Guard. You might not even want your Honor Guard in that combat, just nearby to bodyguard while firing bolters so the enemy doesn't just attack them first.

 

To answer the bodyguard question, each damage that your character takes is what's passed off, not the wounds. So if you take 6 damage to the face from a lascannon, 4 will go to the HG on a 2+, the rest stay on your character. No lost wound shenanigans this edition, pretty much all bodyguards work this way.

 

The small squad size lets you fit these guys into a list very easily and fill elite slots while you're at it. You can tac on a vanguard detachment super easily because of this.

 

First blood can be an issue, so if your Commander is on foot then company vets might be a better choice if you are facing snipers, but otherwise the character rule will protect him and vets have a max size of 5. 5 wounds that is, vs the Honor guards' 4 with a 2+ save... Not a huge difference, unless multi damage weaponry is involved. Go ahead and shoot at my Honor Guard... They're dirt cheap!

 

The real obstacle that arises from the small squad size is getting them to stick with characters who charge, especially if you bring multiple Honor Guard squads. For that reason, you want to charge them first and move your characters in afterwards. You might find it better to keep your character back with them if you rolled poorly on those charges.

 

This also makes it preferable to use them riding in vehicles with characters where your charges will likely be closer and thus more reliable. They only take 1 slot as mentioned above. Black Templars also have the benefit of being better at keeping these men coherent with your commanders with their righteous zeal.

 

Try them out, but don't just throw them at the wall to see what sticks. Think of them as an extension of your characters.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Ebon Hand