Death Company v Vanguard Vets for a Specific Purpose

[Explorer1]

I have a dilemma - I’m trying to decide between a 10 man unit of DC or a 10 man unit of Vanguard Vets. But I have a specific purpose in mind.

 

I need something to kill big scary things (BSTs). Until now I’ve run DC with a mix of Hammers and Chainswords. However, I find I usually want more Chainswords, or more Hammers. So, I’m planning on running a 15 man unit of DC for horde control and busting up screens, and I need a “Hammer Unit” (in both sense of the word!) to take out BSTs.

 

I looked at Sanguinary Guard, but they are just too expensive for their damage output, and a 2+ save isn’t what it used to be! So I’ve come to either a 10 man DC unit with 5 hammers, and 5 Chainswords, or a 10 man Vanguard Unit with 5 Hammers, 2 Chainswords, and 3 Stormshields. They are more or less the same points.

 

I would expect to drop this unit in on turn 2 or three, to kill BSTs, after I’ve cleared away screens. Chances are I would use Descent of Angels for a 3d6 charge, and most likely have re-rolls to hit from either Lemartes, or Dante.

 

My math skills are rudimentary at best, but I think it’s fair to say that versus T8 or T7 targets the DC put out more damage than the VV (roughly 6 points of damage more) due to them having 4 attacks on the charge. However, with the Storm Shields, the VV will be more durable.

 

Now, durability is more slippery to pin down. I’m not really talking about durability from torrent of fire, becasue they all have a 3+ save. I’m really talking about durability from AP-x weapons, particularly in combat. It seems to me that the VV have more chance of hanging around for a second round of combat against BSTs than DC.

 

But is that important?

 

The only other real difference is that the VV wouldn’t get a charge re-roll from Lemartes, but, then again, it’s likely Lemartes will already be deployed with the 15 man DC unit. I could Wings of Fire him over though, if I have the Command Points.

 

Thoughts?

[Silverson]

I'd probably go with the death company because of the possibility of buffs from lemartes, without lemartes they are close but with him in your army the situational bonus of his re-rolls plus the also situational bonus of forlorn fury (assuming poor screens etc....) I believe that the death company have a decent enough edge over vanguard vets. 

[Paladin777]

There’s one rather large advantage that the vanguard have over death company in the ability to take pistols on the models with hammers. You could take a few inferno pistols on the models with hammers to add some additional punch while leaving the chaff cheap and/or with shields. Edited February 28, 2018 by Paladin777

[Majkhel]

DC also get additional attack when charging.

That being said, I'm going to try VanVets in hammer-time role in my next game as their hammers are single-handed. Plus DC comes with big TARGET mark on their foreheads.

[Kaese]

DC is better against big targets as you can get +33% attacks on the charge. Much more reliable than vanguard veterans. Inferno pistols don't usually help as ypu are going to be 9" away the turn they come to play.

 

Vanguard veterans with shields are better agains something that can put out a lot of high ap firepower on overwatch or even when they land.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Let's start with this; what exactly are you defining as big scary things?

[Explorer1]

K

 

Let's start with this; what exactly are you defining as big scary things?

Knights, Monsters and Primarchs. Also, anything T8 - most probably Plague Burst Crawlers.

[Explorer1]

There’s one rather large advantage that the vanguard have over death company in the ability to take pistols on the models with hammers. You could take a few inferno pistols on the models with hammers to add some additional punch while leaving the chaff cheap and/or with shields.

 

Not convinced by Fusions Pistols as I'll be dropping down outside 9". The only time they might come in handy is if the VV come out the other end of their combat and have other hard targets, which is possible with the Storm Shields I guess

[Explorer1]

DC is better against big targets as you can get +33% attacks on the charge. Much more reliable than vanguard veterans. Inferno pistols don't usually help as ypu are going to be 9" away the turn they come to play.

 

Vanguard veterans with shields are better agains something that can put out a lot of high ap firepower on overwatch or even when they land.

 

Thats the key isn't it - is it worth sacrificing damage output for survivability?

[Brother Crimson]

Vanguard can survive more shots with shields at the cost of some attacks. This would be my reason to take them but I prefer other options.

 

DC can be buffed by lemartes, he is as good as a HQ can be for his price, reroll to charge makes assault a lot more reliable.

 

Speaking of reliability, have you considered melta assault/ company veterans with JP? Melta gun only one more point over hammer and you don’t have to charge to use it.

[Panzer]

Vanguard can survive more shots with shields at the cost of some attacks. This would be my reason to take them but I prefer other options.

 

DC can be buffed by lemartes, he is as good as a HQ can be for his price, reroll to charge makes assault a lot more reliable.

 

Speaking of reliability, have you considered melta assault/ company veterans with JP? Melta gun only one more point over hammer and you don’t have to charge to use it.

The Meltagun also has one shot less than Vanguards have attacks and you can't shoot back the same turn you got charged tho. Also if you stay out of combat everything can shoot at you without a unit having to fall back.

I don't think it's bad but I also don't think it serves the same role as a Thunderhammer.

[Explorer1]

 

Vanguard can survive more shots with shields at the cost of some attacks. This would be my reason to take them but I prefer other options.

 

DC can be buffed by lemartes, he is as good as a HQ can be for his price, reroll to charge makes assault a lot more reliable.

 

Speaking of reliability, have you considered melta assault/ company veterans with JP? Melta gun only one more point over hammer and you don’t have to charge to use it.

The Meltagun also has one shot less than Vanguards have attacks and you can't shoot back the same turn you got charged tho. Also if you stay out of combat everything can shoot at you without a unit having to fall back.

I don't think it's bad but I also don't think it serves the same role as a Thunderhammer.

 

Agree with this. Also, some of the tournaments I go to don't allow index units (rightly IMO, but that's another issue entirely!)

[Indefragable]

By "not allowing Index units"....are you referring to jump-pack Company Veterans?

 

The Codex allows Meltagun Assault Marines.

 

Anyways...

 

I would consider the following:

 

A. are you bringing Lemartes?

he is essentially a Tax for Death Company since you really need him to get their all.

 

B. are you facing a high volume of Mortal Wounds?

 

C. do you want to kill things in a single charge?

 

 

Hidden Content

A. if NO, then go Vanguard Vets

 

B. if YES then go Death Company, since they at least get 6+++ FNP. HOWEVER, if you plan on running the Standard of Sacrifice, then go VV since DC are not eligible for that

 

C. if YES then go DC...no one can get more TH swings on the charge then they can (3 each). Dirty-dozen suicide-squad style.

if NO then VV are the best monster-hunters in our book since they can get 3++ storm shields.

 

[Brother Crimson]

 

Vanguard can survive more shots with shields at the cost of some attacks. This would be my reason to take them but I prefer other options.

 

DC can be buffed by lemartes, he is as good as a HQ can be for his price, reroll to charge makes assault a lot more reliable.

 

Speaking of reliability, have you considered melta assault/ company veterans with JP? Melta gun only one more point over hammer and you don’t have to charge to use it.

The Meltagun also has one shot less than Vanguards have attacks and you can't shoot back the same turn you got charged tho. Also if you stay out of combat everything can shoot at you without a unit having to fall back.

I don't think it's bad but I also don't think it serves the same role as a Thunderhammer.

 

 

They do have similar purpose and it depends how you like to play. Assault has more damage but at a greater risk.

 

Deep striking with a reroll to charge gives you about 48% chance to land your hammers and some models can die to overwatch. Descent of angels makes this a lot more reliable but you burn CP. If you are already burning a lot of CPs for another assault unit you will run out quickly.

 

Meltagun (or plasma with a cpt if you prefer them) will always give you 1 shot right out of deep strike and does not require good charge roll or CPs. 

 

Also, against knights and primarchs, charging them is not always the best option. Mortarion will strike back with 15-18 plague weapon attacks and potential mortal wounds. Knights have 12 attacks with their titanic feet to stomp you when they strike back and they can disengage and shoot you anyway.

[Panzer]

 

 

Vanguard can survive more shots with shields at the cost of some attacks. This would be my reason to take them but I prefer other options.

 

DC can be buffed by lemartes, he is as good as a HQ can be for his price, reroll to charge makes assault a lot more reliable.

 

Speaking of reliability, have you considered melta assault/ company veterans with JP? Melta gun only one more point over hammer and you don’t have to charge to use it.

The Meltagun also has one shot less than Vanguards have attacks and you can't shoot back the same turn you got charged tho. Also if you stay out of combat everything can shoot at you without a unit having to fall back.

I don't think it's bad but I also don't think it serves the same role as a Thunderhammer.

 

 

They do have similar purpose and it depends how you like to play. Assault has more damage but at a greater risk.

 

Deep striking with a reroll to charge gives you about 48% chance to land your hammers and some models can die to overwatch. Descent of angels makes this a lot more reliable but you burn CP. If you are already burning a lot of CPs for another assault unit you will run out quickly.

 

Meltagun (or plasma with a cpt if you prefer them) will always give you 1 shot right out of deep strike and does not require good charge roll or CPs. 

 

Also, against knights and primarchs, charging them is not always the best option. Mortarion will strike back with 15-18 plague weapon attacks and potential mortal wounds. Knights have 12 attacks with their titanic feet to stomp you when they strike back and they can disengage and shoot you anyway.

 

Again, I did say it's not bad.

[Kaese]

 

DC is better against big targets as you can get +33% attacks on the charge. Much more reliable than vanguard veterans. Inferno pistols don't usually help as ypu are going to be 9" away the turn they come to play.

Vanguard veterans with shields are better agains something that can put out a lot of high ap firepower on overwatch or even when they land.

 

 

Thats the key isn't it - is it worth sacrificing damage output for survivability?

Not against big things. 2 attacks base is just too low to do reliable damage, and the cost for the unit with enough hammers will be too high. Even with the shields they are quite fragile and go down if the enemy sends enough bullet at them, and big unit with multiple hammers will surely get the attention.

 

Vanguard veterans with shields are better against softer targets with high at weapon. Especially if there is a risk for hellblasters using auspex scan. Death company will perish, but vanguard veterans with shields actually have a chance.

 

Big blob of death company with few hammers will have far better chance against big things, especially when backed up by a chaplain.

[Explorer1]

Thanks guys. Appreciate all your thoughts. I get the feeling that the weight of opinion favours DC - the survivability gained by VV with Storm Shields doesn't really outweigh the additional damage output of the DC with their 3 attacks on the charge.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I agree with the majority of what's been said here. I've tried vanilla codex Vanguard Veterans many times, and 2 attacks just simply not enough attacks to deal damage that sticks. With ANY weapon. 

[tychobi]

Meta guns and chain swords on the vets. If you need a big model busting unit 10 melta guns will do work. Don't get too pigeon holed by our chapter tactic

[Arkhanist]

I'd go with option C. plasma inceptors and captain smashypants. Captain drops in with the inceptors to reduce their self-inflicted blowingupiness, they riddle something scary with overcharged plasma, then he charges like an angry red missile to either finish off the initial target or go hammer something else.

[Morticon]

storm shields. 

That is all. 

[Majkhel]

Meta guns and chain swords on the vets. If you need a big model busting unit 10 melta guns will do work. Don't get too pigeon holed by our chapter tactic

Vanguard Veterans can't take melta guns. If they are Company Vets, they can, but then (codex-wise) no jump packs for them. Just pointing the distinction as the topic started from VV not CV and both are "veterans".

Edited March 1, 2018 by Majkhel

[sebs_evo7]

I’m thinking maybe he meant inferno pistols? A unit of inferno pistols and ss is something i want to price up

[Explorer1]

Really not convinced by Inferno Pistols. My otehr 8th ed army is Harlequins. They have Fusion Pistols, which are essential the same as Inferno Pistols. What makes them awesome in a Harlies army are Starweavers i.e. their open topped transports than move 16” and still let the guys inside fire Fusions Pistols. I could count on the fingers of one hand, the number of times I’ve used Fusions Pistols, while my Harlies have been foot slogging, and I think I’ve only ever once fired them in close combat. Now Jump Marines are faster than Harlies, but i still dont think they’ll get the benefit from Inferno Pistols.

 

At best I think Inferno Pistols will be very situational.

 

Anybody run multiple Inferno Pistols on Jump Troops?

[Kaese]

Anybody run multiple Inferno Pistols on Jump Troops?

 

I have used 2-3 inferno pistols on death company on few games. I have usually get to shot once or twice with them, depending if I use forlorn fury or not. I have had some really bad rolls with the pistols, but it has been helpful on softening tougher targets.

 

Basically I just keep them in the unit for the looks :)