Advice for first time vs Tau (competitive)

[Blackcadian]

Commanders!

 

Following orders from high command I am to ready a strike force and take out a stubborn Tau stronghold.

 

As I’ve so far not deployed in the Damocles gulf I would humbly seek advice from you veterans.

 

My opponent currently leads our league and plays BA, too. He gets a lot of practice but doesn’t seem to bring cheesy lists, he’s just very good. Seems to like his Ghostkeels, haven’t seen him bring a Riptide or Stormsurge so far. Some Crisis Suits, a Commander, Broadsides, Infantry in Devilfish. Plenty of drones.

 

Can you give me any pointers?

 

I would charge Captain Smush in (DoA) to stop overwatch and follow up with DC w Lemartes re-rolls. See if I can tri-lock. AM Miner plus an Eversor. Mephiston and/or a JP Libby. No vehicles for fear of melta-cide suits. I like my infantry anyway. Inceptors?

 

Thank you!!!

[Panzer]

Well few things:

 - Commanders are devastating with their BS2+. It's the only real quality shooting T'au currently have so competetive T'au lists tend to spam them. Common are Commander with 4 Fusion Blaster (18" Melta) accompanied by two Drones to soak up shooting the turn they drop

 - Don't underestimate Drones. Gun Drones may hit only on 5+ but each have 4 S5 shots and cost only 8p. With a Fireblade nearby it goes up to 6 shots per Drone at half range. Those guys hurt a lot more than you'd think.

 

^ those are the two big things you have to take care of against T'au.

 

General stuff:

 - T'au can't hit for their life of it. They only have BS4+ (Hammerheads have BS3+), no re-rolling 1s aura on characters except for the Ethereal but that aura requires the units to stay stationary. So they have to rely on Markerlights. That means a few things. It means the Markerlights have to hit to apply their bonuses. The bonuses only apply against the unit that got hit by the Markerlights. You can take the Markerlights out way more easily than you could take out buff characters. The only exception here is the Firesight Marksman which is a character with a single BS3+ Markerlight each.

 - All Drones have a rather broken bodyguard rule. They soak up a whole wound no matter how much damage it'd do without having to roll for it and in return suffer a Mortal wound instead. That usually means the Drone is dead unless it's a Shield Drone which has on top of its 4++ a 5+++ as well. So forget about shooting with Lascannons or Melta at Battlesuits.

 - Most stuff in the T'au Index is overcosted. Exceptions are infantry and Commanders. However while Crisis Suits are incredibly expensive it doesn't mean they are harmless. Especially when equipped with Cyclic Ion Blasters (Assault 3 S7 AP-1 D1 or Assault 1d3 S8 AP-1 D1d3) or Flamer. Each Crisis can take up to three weapons (so 9 Cyclic Ion Blaster shots for example) or use those three slots for support systems instead which usually includes either a 4++ invul or improving the models weapons AP by 1 (so Cyclic Ion Blasters with AP-2 or Flamer with AP-1 for example)

 - Everything that is a Battlesuit, tank or Drone has the FLY keyword. It's basically impossible to tie them up in melee. Actually it's the opposite, T'au player will often charge shooty units themselves so those can't shoot in their turn while they can just fall back and keep shooting.

 - T'au are most deadly within 18" due their weapons being often 18" Assault weapons or 30" Rapid fire weapons. If you get close make sure you kill them.

 - Pay attention to their Stealth Suits. One of the few units that actually aren't overcosted (or if they are only very little). They get -1 to-hit ALWAYS, have T4 W2 Sv3+, Burst Cannons (18" Assault 4 S5) which they can give AP-1 and, the most important thing, they can get deployed like Space Marine Scouts. So if you have reserves make sure to take Scouts and deploy them first where you plan to drop your reserves before he puts his Stealth Suits there. They're also Infantry on top of Battlesuits so they can easily benefit from cover for a 2+ save.

 

 

Strong T'au lists usually contain multiple Commander with Fusion Blaster and Devilishes (transporter) filled with Gun Drones and a Fireblade.
Something I'd take against melee heavy armies would be a Crisis Suit unit equipped with Flamer and two Shield Drones per Suit. That's a hard to shift unit with 31.5 S4 hits on Overwatch (roughly 5 dead Marines) tho as BA we can circumvent these by using the 3d6 charge Stratagem and the Jump Pack relic luckily. Just make sure that you hit hard when you charge their lines or the retaliation will hurt a lot. Try to get rid of the Drones first or he'll simply sacrifice a few nearby Drones to soak up Captain Smashs hits.

 

 

Uh I hope I didn't forget anything and that it isn't too confusing. I'm rather tired and should go to bed probably. 

[Blackcadian]

Wow Panzer, what a comprehensive and helpful reply!! Thank you so much, I already feel better prepared!

 

One thing I noticed is that Tau have access to an intercept ability, which makes me very sad :/ Basically I have to kill all the EWO suits before deep striking or find a spot that’s further than 12 away...

[Panzer]

Ah right EWO is a support system but is rarely taken except for on the Storm Surge.

Riptide and Ghostkeel kinda need the Target Lock due their weapons being Heavy weapons and they usually want the ATS as well so their weapons have a bit more punch. There's a build with a Fusion Ghostkeel and EWO floating around tho so that might be something to look out for (it has only 4 BS4+ melta shots tho).

Broadsides it depends. The HYMP benefits more from ATS usually. The HRR one is pretty much free in what Support System to take but only has few shots as well.

Crisis Suits would have to sacrifice one of their three slots so that means no ATS/no third weapon. Definitely a viable choice tho if the T'au player expects to face lots of reserves.

[Majkhel]

I soooo very much hate shield drones :(

Had a game today vs Commander spam with 3 units of drones (8 gun, 2 shield). Those pesky things are horribly durable.

[Panzer]

I soooo very much hate shield drones

Had a game today vs Commander spam with 3 units of drones (8 gun, 2 shield). Those pesky things are horribly durable.

 

And that's why I love Shield Drones. A unit of Flamer Crisis with 6 Shield Drones or a Broadside with 4 Shield Drones is pretty much my favorite thing to use currently. :D

[Paladin777]

How would a volley from Bolter inceptors work against them? High volume of D1 shots?

[Panzer]

It would obviously work well against Drones. ^^

[brother_b]

I soooo very much hate shield drones

Had a game today vs Commander spam with 3 units of drones (8 gun, 2 shield). Those pesky things are horribly durable.

Xenos! Xenos! Purge! 

 

;)

[Blackcadian]

Ah right EWO is a support system but is rarely taken except for on the Storm Surge.

Riptide and Ghostkeel kinda need the Target Lock due their weapons being Heavy weapons and they usually want the ATS as well so their weapons have a bit more punch. There's a build with a Fusion Ghostkeel and EWO floating around tho so that might be something to look out for (it has only 4 BS4+ melta shots tho).

Broadsides it depends. The HYMP benefits more from ATS usually. The HRR one is pretty much free in what Support System to take but only has few shots as well.

Crisis Suits would have to sacrifice one of their three slots so that means no ATS/no third weapon. Definitely a viable choice tho if the T'au player expects to face lots of reserves.

Hm very interesting, thanks! Apparently he likes his Broadsides with EWOs. And brings tons of anti infantry firepower. Which got me to the idea of bringing a Fire Raptor and a double Storm Cannon Leviathan. Both put out a horrendous volume of fire and should be hard to shift. Maybe even throw in a Libby Dread and some Assbacks. Whereas my standard infantry list will probably get murdered. Hm. Edited March 2, 2018 by Blackcadian

[Majkhel]

Yes, the more crazy the amount of firepower, the better. Hower our firepower is not cheap compared to shield drones. Still need to figure a way to win with those xenos :/

[Panzer]

Yeah Shield Drones are incredibly cheap for how well they protect Suits. However Suits are incredibly expensive for what they do so it balances out ... and not in favour of T'au usually. Get rid of the Drones and the Suits are just seriously overcosted shooty units with BS4+. ^^

Edited March 2, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Majkhel]

The problem I'm facing locally are not the suits with drones, as with suits I can at least target suits. My opponent is using commanders, so I have to target the drones and deal with their double saves before I even get a chance to target commanders in any way.

Maybe its my bad luck, but Yesterday my whole shooting turn (Stormhawk, assback, whirlwind, devastator lascanon plus some random bolters) could only account for 2 or 3 drones. And after that, the commanders were free to have their share of 2+ shots.

Granted, I made some tactical mistakes and only lost by one point. However that doesn't change the fact that I have yet to break my streak of losses against Tau.

 

Edit: the problem with inceptors is that they are worth like 3 points less than 6 devs with HB. The same number of wounds, less range. Now the range is the actual problem, as 18" means you are in range of every Tau weapon. So they will often die next turn after their appearance.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Majkhel

[Panzer]

Yeah as said the Suits are overcosted anyway and there's a reason why competetive T'au lists are spamming Gun Drones and Commander.

Rumours have it that the Codex allows only one Commander per Detachment so at least real Commander spam isn't something you'll have to face anymore in the future....if they are true. ;)

 

Also yes that's definitely just bad luck lol. The Assback alone should kill 3.56 Gun Drones or 1.78 Shield Drones. And that's without any re-rolls from Captains or Sponsons or whatever.

[Blackcadian]

Alright, two more questions:

 

1. Has one of you tried to hard alpha them?

 

In essence thats what we do best after all, and he cant cover everything with his EWO broadsides. I’m thinking along the lines of Libby dread with wings in a pod, Captain, Lt, Libby for Rage on DC, Lemartes, DC and an Eversor. Captain tags as much as he can with DoA, libby dread could soak some overwatch and should make it in if Wings go off. Eversor should make it in, too, and between the other units and their re-rolls there should hopefully be even more melee pressure. Honor the chapter to push even further.

 

 

2. How bad is Tau overwatch currently?

 

I find it hard to calculate at the moment. IE if I send in a 15 man DC unit if I lose 5 I’d be ok with that, but more would hurt. Of course the math depends in the units in question and proximity what with their special rule.

 

Tldr: DoA on the Captain with relic or on the DC?

Edited March 2, 2018 by Blackcadian

[Panzer]

1.

Considering that Gun Drones are often in Transports and Commander in reserve I don't think that the usual T'au list is that vulnerable to Alpha strikes.

However if he has multiple Broadsides or Hammerheads etc. then an alpha strike should prove fairly effective for sure. Just as always make sure there aren't Drones around the Suits once you go over to hit him with Thunderhammers etc.

But don't underestimate how much space he can cover with EWO. A 12" aura is huge. That being said, a Broadside will kill only ~2 Marines with EWO and then probably gets wrecked by whatever you're going to charge it with (unless there are a bunch of Shield Drones around). That's not a whole lot for ~200 points. ^^

 

 

2.

T'au Overwatch is not much worse than other Overwatch. A unit that's within 6" of another unit that gets charged can join shooting Overwatch but can't Overwatch for the rest of the turn afterwards. Their CDS support system that used to make them hit Overwatch on 5+ is now a simple re-roll to-hit on Overwatch. Also since they don't really have characters with re-roll auras they would have to hit with a Markerlight on 6s to get the re-roll 1s.

Edited March 2, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Majkhel]

I would say that alpha strike from reserve is hard against Tau opponent that expects to be assaulted this way. The more assaulting units the better but rolling those 9s is not as reliable as we'd like.
As Panzer said, most of his juicy commanders usually starts in reserve. Rest can be pretty nicely bubble-wrapped with drones leaving you with a choice to assault drones only. In my opinion it relies on the opponent making a mistake in deployment. 
And in my experience their overwatch is a lot nastier than for example ours - lots multi-shot str 5 weapons. Fortunately the AP is not terrible, but still its the quantity that matters the most in this edition. Gun drones gets 4 shots, and they are Str 5.

[Blackcadian]

Thanks for the quick replies! You’re right that therell most likely be a lot of bubble wrap with the broadsides furthest back.

 

How does it work with the assaulting and honor the chapter exactly? Basically I cant HTC vs a unit that I havent declared the initial charge against right? And I can only declare charges against units that I can physically reach, or is that irrelevant? So declare the charge vs say the drones and the unit behind them even though I cant actually get within 1” of the latter with the initial charge?

[Panzer]

You can only declare charges against units within 12" no matter whether you can charge 1d6, 2d6 or 3d6.

[Blackcadian]

You can only declare charges against units within 12" no matter whether you can charge 1d6, 2d6 or 3d6.

Yes, but can I declare against a unit that I cant reach because there are other units in front? For the purpose of Honor the Chapter?

[Majkhel]

I'm not sure if that can be done. If after successfully wiping out one unit you consolidate into another unit that you didn't declare charge against, you are not able to attack it. I guess even with the HTC stratagem. You could, if you declared charge into that unit as well. And for that you need to be able to reach it at least theoretically.

Does it really needs to be up to 12"? Id say that it needs to be below 13" as you need to finish the charge with a model being closer than 1".

And then with the Tau, you have the increased overwatch numbers. Still it might be viable to bait the opponent to use that multioverwatch by declaring a charge with an expendable unit first. Like a rhino or MSU of company vets (2 guys). Or a distraction carnifex like the LibbyDred who has some chance of survival. Then all the units that joined overwatch would be deprived of the overwatch for the entire turn.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Majkhel

[Panzer]

Does it really needs to be up to 12"? Id say that it needs to be below 13" as you need to finish the charge with a model being closer than 1".

 

The rulebook is clear there. You can only declare charges against units that are 12" away or less. Even if you could theoretically make a charge from 13" away.

[Aothaine]

Wow Panzer, what a comprehensive and helpful reply!! Thank you so much, I already feel better prepared!

 

One thing I noticed is that Tau have access to an intercept ability, which makes me very sad :/ Basically I have to kill all the EWO suits before deep striking or find a spot that’s further than 12 away...

 

sfpanzer is a T'au player. I would take his advice very seriously. He knows his stuff when it comes to T'au.

[Panzer]

Heh, to be fair I shelved my T'au a few months ago due how bad the Index rules are. I've got plenty theoretical knowledge from various sources tho. ^^