Input on a Primaris Chapter idea, "Jaws of Tindalos"

[XenoMechanicum]

I can't work on my Necron Overlord for the Conversion challenge at the moment so my mind wandered while driving today and I had a thought - I'd like to create an all Primaris Successor Chapter - to the Warhounds, now known as the World Eaters.

 

The idea being that Cawl being Cawl decided to create an illicit Successor to a corrupted Legion, and designated as a Black Templars Successor (since they seem to have the closest tactics to what I could see the old school Warhounds as being aside from the Iron Hands as a 'berserker rage' type thing), their entire chapter having a Dark Angels style of grimness - their Chapter Master chooses to embody the spirit of their uncorrupted Primarch, holds a special grudge against the World Eaters, and wants to personally hunt down and kill Angron to 'redeem' him and their fallen brothers.

 

They see themselves as a fresh start for the Legion, trying to turn back the clock a bit on their bloodlines history.

 

Any input on the idea?

[Race Bannon]

You seem to have a groovy start already :tu:  It seems the hardest part now is heraldry :P

[XenoMechanicum]

Thanks! Not so much actually; I'm thinking a set of four 'fangs' 2 larger ones on the outside and 2 slightly smaller on the inside, just like the squad markings? Hard to explain I think but easy enough to paint I think!

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Is the name a reference to the Cthulhu mythos story 'The Hounds of Tindalos'? For a loyalist Chapter allegedly descended from the Black Templars, I think it's better to name it after a mortal hound celebrated for its loyalty, e.g., Argos, Odysseus' faithful dog; or Hachiko; or Seymour, an Americanized Hachiko from 'Futurama'.

 

The idea is otherwise okay.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Bjorn Firewalker

[XenoMechanicum]

It was and thanks for the input! That was just the working name since it's the first one that popped into my head, I would probably prefer Argos out of those though there are probably more resonant names I'm not aware of - I've been wanting to do a Chaos Legion Primaris army since someone here mentioned the idea though I can't remember who.

[Dosjetka]

This kind of thread belongs in the Liber Astartes. :tu:

[Archivist Thaddeus Kryptem]

I like the idea, and would agree that the "Jaws of Argos" is a strong name and good for the loyalty it brings to mind. 

 

The one thing I would say is that if doing a Primaris Chapter descended from a Traitor Legion make sure that you keep it subtle, hinting at their true lineage rather than stating it in the IA. From an in Universe stand point the only person remotely aware of it would be Cawl so for all intents and purposes they should believe themselves as Scions of Dorn. 

 

Maybe when describing the Marines and their command structure try and draw from the HH book Betrayer and how they were before the coming of Angron. Another useful source is: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/War_Hounds where the below quote is from:

 

 

The War Hounds developed a reputation for victory, although at a cost, and it was said every assault they conducted ended in only one of two ways: victorious slaughter or simple slaughter, either of which left the foe in no condition to resist further. However effective the Legion was, there were many who fought alongside them who found them also to be unpredictable, intemperate and dangerous to anything that stood in their path, combatant, civilian or otherwise. Rumours soon began to circulate that the War Hounds would put to the sword human auxiliary regiments of the Imperial Army they saw as failing them in battle, and they kept a guarded distance from other Legions. It was noted by outsiders that the War Hounds' officers enforced an unusually harsh code of discipline in their ranks which was indeed needed, as the Astartes of this Legion often proved fractious, and bloodshed between Battle-Brothers was far from uncommon.

The XIIth Legion was increasingly deemed by the Imperial War Council as being more suitable for use against targets where annihilation was the goal rather than Imperial Compliance or liberation, a task to which they seemed eminently suited. The War Hounds were brought together again under the banner of the "Bloody 13th" alongside a variety of units who, like the War Hounds, had gained a dark reputation for unrestrained violence rather than military discipline, or who were otherwise deemed as unusable for actions where collateral damage was to be kept to a minimum and liberation rather than destruction was the goal. They mustered on the harsh, volcanic world of Bodt which had been taken by the War Hounds as a training ground some years before, included regiments of Feral World head-hunters inducted into the Imperial Army and brute Abhumans on the edge of the Imperium's tolerated genetic deviance. To these were added units such as the Titans of the Legio Audax around whom a pall of suspicion had fallen ever since the Lorin Alpha Massacres, and the distrusted Numen Gun Clans -- nomadic techno-barbarians who had bitterly fought against Compliance for many standard years before their recent and grudging induction into the Imperium.

 

It could be worth having the Jaws behave in a similar manner as a subtle nod to their true origins with out stating out right and keeping the IA limited to the in universe knowledge that the Imperium has. Although feel free to disregard it is jsut a personal opinion :) 

[XenoMechanicum]

This kind of thread belongs in the Liber Astartes. :tu:

Ah my apologies Chaplain! Still a bit new here and learning my way around (not helped by catching the flu at the end of January, I haven't painted anything since then) is there a way for me to move it or ask for it to be moved? Or should this one be closed and reopened there?

 

And many thanks to Inquisitor Van Horn! Resources like that are exactly I'm searching for so I can build them properly - I do like Jaws of Argos as well but it just doesn't quite flow for me - the feeling like you found the first or second runner up instead of the winner you know? Could be wrong which is why I figured I should ask for some input, working well so far! The IA is the Index Astartes right?

 

Though as far as the knowledge of their origins I originally planned for Cawl and the Chapter Master to be fully aware, as well as the upper echelon of their command structure, with the brothers as a whole only loosely aware - rumors floating through the Chapter but never leaving their walls - with the fresh initiates being told firmly that they are sons of Dorn - no one else!

[Dosjetka]

I've already moved it for you.

[XenoMechanicum]

Ah thanks! Sorry for not noticing!

[Archivist Thaddeus Kryptem]

 

This kind of thread belongs in the Liber Astartes.

Ah my apologies Chaplain! Still a bit new here and learning my way around (not helped by catching the flu at the end of January, I haven't painted anything since then) is there a way for me to move it or ask for it to be moved? Or should this one be closed and reopened there?

 

And many thanks to Inquisitor Van Horn! Resources like that are exactly I'm searching for so I can build them properly - I do like Jaws of Argos as well but it just doesn't quite flow for me - the feeling like you found the first or second runner up instead of the winner you know? Could be wrong which is why I figured I should ask for some input, working well so far! The IA is the Index Astartes right?

 

Though as far as the knowledge of their origins I originally planned for Cawl and the Chapter Master to be fully aware, as well as the upper echelon of their command structure, with the brothers as a whole only loosely aware - rumors floating through the Chapter but never leaving their walls - with the fresh initiates being told firmly that they are sons of Dorn - no one else!

 

 

No problem you are most welcome, and welcome to the Liber!

 

You are correct an IA is an Index Astartes, and do you mean kind of like an Unforgiven/Dark Angels style of Inner Circle? Because that could work, but you will have to make sure you explain why Cawl felt it important that they know, like how does it benefit them, him or the Imperium? Remember there are numerous Chapters who are rumoured to be descended from Traitors gene-stock like Blood Ravens  (Thousand Sons), Silver Skulls (Iron Warriors) and possibly even the Carcharodons (Night Lords) and none of them strictly speaking know, know as far as we are aware. 

 

I am by no means trying to say it won't work or shouldn't be done, just make sure that you think about why they were told and explain it and all will be as Golden as a Custode, jsut trying to provide food for thought :)

[XenoMechanicum]

Thanks again! Yes much like that - I have been interested in Cawl and hope to buy him at some point as he also has connections to my Helguard Marines - as far as the reasoning I think I need more research for that; aside from the Chapter wide reasoning (to know their origins and temper the violent impulses inherited by Angron and their own natural aggression, the shame of Angrons fall hopefully enough to straighten them into the aggressive but militant force they began as before the Butchers Nails), and the Command reasoning (a force dedicated to hone their skills for the explicit destruction of a rogue living Primarch, using his own gene seed to engineer an entire Chapter for the takedown of what is essentially a living avatar of violence), but Cawl should have his own reasoning - but again I'm not familiar enough with his character yet to know what his motivation could be, are there any good books out featuring him?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Do the Jaws of Argos lobotomize its members with the "Butcher's Nails," as the World Eaters did?

 

Anyway, it makes sense for Cawl to attempt to use Traitor gene-seed against Traitors, but it does NOT make sense for the target of the Jaws of Argos to be their own sire; as Angron is very familiar with the World Eaters' strengths and weaknesses, he can anticipate the next move of the Jaws of Argos and keep himself "ahead of the game."

 

You do not defeat an enemy by "beating him at his own game," as that is playing to your enemy's strengths. You defeat an enemy by forcing him to "play your game," i.e., play to your own strengths, allowing you to defeat the enemy at your leisure, and conserving resources needed for your next fight.

 

Send the Jaws of Argos after Fulgrim or Magnus. I'm sure the Ultramarines and the Space Wolves will be happy to let them "soften up the enemy," allowing them to flank their distracted nemesis and win glory- crush the Traitor Primarchs- more easily.

[XenoMechanicum]

Definitely not; as that would be a very direct and obvious relation to the World Eaters and they're intended as the 'pre-Angron' War Hounds.

 

That does make more sense, thanks for that - an oddly inherited dislike for sorcery sees them rejecting sorcery much the same as their Primarch, resulting in a slight camaraderie with the Space Wolves and a grudge against Magnus - possibly with additional training to resist such 'trickery' in the "Abhor The Witch" stratagem from the Black Templars.