Speed of the Primarch (and similar abilities)

[MeltaRange]

Hey good people.

 

I have a couple questions on this ability and others like it; not sure if it's been FAQ'ed or anything but wanted to double check.  Trying to find a use for this trait but having a real hard time.

 

1) Let's say Mephiston is my Warlord and he gets charged by a single unit of Genestealers.  It's pretty clear that the bugs will attack first since they charged and it's my opponent's turn so he chooses which "fights first unit" actually fights first. Assume both units survive. Now, in my turn, I choose Mephiston to fight first.  Does that count as my activation and now my opponent can choose a unit to fight?  Or can I choose him first just separately from normal combat protocol because of Speed in the Primarch, and then choose another unit to fight as my "first activation"?  Or does he get to activate after Mephiston?

 

2) How does this interact with the Counter-Offensive stratagem? Let's say I have a unit of Terminators get charged by Genestealers and a Broodlord and then Mephiston does a Heroic Intervention.  Let's say he chooses to have the Genestealers fight first and he attacks the Terminators but I boss most of my saves.  Can I play Counter-Offensive on the Terminators to have them attack, and then IMMEDIATELY after attack with Mephiston due to Speed of the Primarch? I think yes, but the "alternate" clause could be interpreted that the Broodlord gets to go.

 

Thanks!

[Ornithologist]

The order of operations are as follows:

 

 

1. Charging unit of Current Player fights. - or (Speed of the Primarch) unit of current player Fights.

2. (Speed of the Primarch) unit of other player fights - or Counter-charge Strategem of other player Fights.

 

repeat until out of these units.

 

Once out of all of the above - 

 

1. Current player unit attacks.

2. Other player unit attacks.

 

Repeat until done. 

 

If one player runs out of units during either of these the other player runs through theirs of the same category and them moves on.

 

Big things to note:

 

The strat can only be activated after a unit that charged that turn has attacked. So if no one charged, but a unit has speed of the primarch, then the strat doesn't work as I understand it. The warlord trait and similar abilities don't count as charging in and of themselves.  - Though I suppose RAW means if you run all of your speed of the Primarch units (that didn't charge) first then start with your charging units they could not Strat in a counter charge until then (though they could Speed of the Primarch themselves. (Slenesh armies could get away with this maybe?) 

 

Further point is that once you start resolving non charging speed attacks it is too late to use the strat.

 

Finally, you are right on the Alternate clause. The strat just gives a unit a change to which category it attacks in.

 

 

edited for clarity.

 

Edit for final thought - Speed of the Primarch and charging don't stack. ( I know you didn't ask that, but I'm putting it in for completeness.)

Edited March 1, 2018 by Ornithologist

[The Unseen]

Firstly, don't use Speed of the Primarch.

It's a bad ability, it only actually matters when A. Someone else has it, B. You charged last turn and your still in combat, because your opponent didn't flee/die, or C. Your opponent charged you with at least 2 different units, some of which charged your warlord.

 

I believe only Slannesh units have it, other than other similar warlord traits, so A. Doesn't come up much, B. I can count on the fingers of 1 hand, and C. Means you screwed up somewhere.

 

Otherwise, think Ornithologist has the right of it.

[Ornithologist]

There's a Slannesh player in my meta, so it has come up a bit. I don't normally take that trait myself, because I normally do the Artisan of war.

 

Something else to think about, when its your turn to pick a unit to fight in close combat, you don't need to pick something from the same combat as the opponent. It can occasionally allow you to Kill a charging unit before it gets to strike at all. 

[Xenith]

 Any units that always strike first essentially form a separate stack of operations to resolve.

 

Work through all 'strike first' units first, as normal, alternating activations starting with the player whose turn it is, then move to non 'strike first' units, alternating activations starting with the player whose turn it is.

[brother_b]

Firstly, don't use Speed of the Primarch.

It's a bad ability, it only actually matters when A. Someone else has it, B. You charged last turn and your still in combat, because your opponent didn't flee/die, or C. Your opponent charged you with at least 2 different units, some of which charged your warlord.

 

I believe only Slannesh units have it, other than other similar warlord traits, so A. Doesn't come up much, B. I can count on the fingers of 1 hand, and C. Means you screwed up somewhere.

 

Otherwise, think Ornithologist has the right of it.

 

This is what I've always thought. Horrible warlord trait because charging units always go first. You would literally have to go through your charge phase, attacking, and then wait until your opponents melee turn to utilize this warlord trait, if you're still locked into combat.

 

And lets say you are locked into combat, you can get charged by another unit/character and they still get to go first. Only when it comes to the melee phase after all chargers have made their attacks does it count.

 

At least that's been our take on the trait/rule.

[Panzer]

Either wait for the second turn of combat (if it happens at all), or have the opponent charge your warlord with 2+ units so it works like a free interrupt. It's slightly better when your whole army has it (like Emperor's Children) but still fairly bad.

[BluejayJunior]

It would be better if it took precedence over charging units.

So the order would be:
1) Speed of the Primarch/Emperor's Children trait/etc.

2) charging units

3) everyone else.

 

Then it might have use. 

[MeltaRange]

 Any units that always strike first essentially form a separate stack of operations to resolve.

 

Work through all 'strike first' units first, as normal, alternating activations starting with the player whose turn it is, then move to non 'strike first' units, alternating activations starting with the player whose turn it is.

 

Ok cool this is what I was really asking because I think this makes it more viable for a character like maybe a Chaplain Dreadnought or Terminator Capt w/ SS near the Relic Standard, who can potentially survive a protracted combat against another dedicated assault unit.  Clearly, it's not the best trait ever and I think it's something that kinda sucks on Mephiston anyway since he doesn't have an Invuln.