What’s with all the bad battle reports lately?

[depthcharge12]

I took about a year’s break from the heresy after enjoying the game system of 8th much more but still love the Heresy setting. It seems after Bligh’s passing, FW’s slow slogging, and Prospero that the quantity and quality of battle reports have just gone down the pipes.

 

I tried looking up some batreps on YT with the hopes that people were keeping the hobby alive but I was quite dismayed. Games have devolved into whose two leviathans and fire raptor rolled better that day, or how badly can you beat your opponent with Custodes/Magnus.

 

What happened to all the people who want to play with the actual legions and have interesting battles? Not that taking a powerful unit in your list is bad, but the community seems to be holding on to the worst excesses of 7th edition 40k. 8th edition has dark reapers and some silly Eldar stuff, but on the whole is not bad.

 

Is this a community issue or is this just a byproduct of FW’s stagnation and 7th edition?

[m_r_parker]

As with all things, there are going to be pockets of people who enjoy a more thematic / fluffy game and there will be those who are looking at tournament style gaming exercises where they can optimise their forces. I know a fair few people locally that have decently themed lists and have a great time using them without resorting to power builds and the like. One mate who's recently moved to the other end of the country was quite successfully running a Talons list with about two thirds Sisters and one third Custodes, something he started after completing a large 30k Space Wolves force long before Inferno was dropped. Not everyone is dropping Primarchs into mid sized games, but I get a feeling that those who aren't are less likely to be filming it and putting it into Bat-reps.

 

I would disagree with the thought that the 30k community is 'holding on to the worst excesses of 7th Edition 40k', and merely suggest that what you've been seeing has been symptomatic of all previous versions of 40k and most of GW gaming systems (and probably those outside of GW too), in that there will always be power gamers who actively look to take the army / build that is considered to be the most powerful. You can look back to things like Rhino spam, or Imperial Guard leaf-blower lists, and death-star units, every edition has had multiple occurrences of this. I would argue that whilst the 30k and 7th Edition 40k ruleset had a common base there were plenty of differences that left 30k less prone to power gaming - and I'm specifically looking at 40k formations which were a terribly badly implemented idea.

[Fangbanger]

30k army checklist:

 

preator with p.blade or a primarch

10 x terminator unit for them

Spartan as a ride

 

Leviathan in pod. Drill and claw or Drill an Melta

 

vets x 2 (cos pride of the legion)

 

Thudd guns with shatter shells

 

whirlwind Scorpius

 

Fire raptor

 

Why have cotton, when you can have silk?

[Fangbanger]

I mean, the above is meant as a bit tongue in cheek (I had Spartans for my world eaters, Levi for my Ravens) but you do see the above units a lot.

 

I think the whole primarch death star is a bit 'done' now

 

But generally, I think I see enough variety at events

[depthcharge12]

30k army checklist:

 

preator with p.blade or a primarch

10 x terminator unit for them

Spartan as a ride

 

Leviathan in pod. Drill and claw or Drill an Melta

 

vets x 2 (cos pride of the legion)

 

Thudd guns with shatter shells

 

whirlwind Scorpius

 

Fire raptor

 

Why have cotton, when you can have silk?

Does it even matter that you are playing a legion at that point?

 

 

@MrParker

Agreed that there are different categories, and I don’t think anyone cares to lose, but like the above list shows, are you really playing to have fun with a legion and your friends? Or are you just trying to use the best units?

 

I didn’t care to make this topic 8th vs 7th but I can’t help but feeling that a lot of this is caused by having to just write entire units out of lists because they have little to no impact in games. The sad part is, that’s generally the Legion Astartes themselves. I rarely see more than 3/4 units of infantry unless it’s a NL or WE list.

 

@Fangbanger

I know you’re cheeky :P but I’m glad you played along. Like the list you wrote, I have been seeing almost exclusively that in battle reports. My gaming group is a bit more moderate than that, but we haven’t played Heresy for over a year. You most definitely can take a few of those units in your list, no problem, but when it becomes Magnus with 3++ rerolling 1 terminators with pocket demolished cannons, two leviathans in pods, min tac/vet sniper squads, etc., you can’t help but feeling ire (this list example wasn’t directed at any particular member).

Edited March 2, 2018 by depthcharge12

[Baluc]

I took about a year’s break from the heresy after enjoying the game system of 8th much more but still love the Heresy setting. It seems after Bligh’s passing, FW’s slow slogging, and Prospero that the quantity and quality of battle reports have just gone down the pipes.

 

I tried looking up some batreps on YT with the hopes that people were keeping the hobby alive but I was quite dismayed. Games have devolved into whose two leviathans and fire raptor rolled better that day, or how badly can you beat your opponent with Custodes/Magnus.

 

What happened to all the people who want to play with the actual legions and have interesting battles? Not that taking a powerful unit in your list is bad, but the community seems to be holding on to the worst excesses of 7th edition 40k. 8th edition has dark reapers and some silly Eldar stuff, but on the whole is not bad.

 

Is this a community issue or is this just a byproduct of FW’s stagnation and 7th edition?

 

This is what happens when you open up any system to a larger audience, its going to through strict attrition expose blind spots. This blind spot was a pretty big one, and one that was already exposed in the core game. Marines themselves are fundamentally flawed as a unit, and because 30k is predicated on the Space Marine for the most part many units stop working once the player stops feeling the compulsion to take Space Marines, or you reach a sufficient number of armies that don't need to take Space Marines as their troops. 

 

Custodes are just the most extreme example of this, but it really started as soon as Mechanicum were playable as an exclusive faction.

 

Now to the list construction, well nobody wants to build and paint units that don't do anything in the game, and scoring isn't doing something. And, that is before you even come to the rule of cool in list construction. 

 

Fix the base space marines attacks, the AP of a Chainsword or give them proto-rending (ap5), and give marines the ability to fall back from combat and they might be deemed useful. 

[Hellrender]

I recommend checking out the30kchannel. I wish they dished out batreps more often, but i enjoy watching them. They seem to be thematic, and not really power gamey.

[Marshal Rohr]

Check on the Centurion mode games on IG.

[depthcharge12]

I recommend checking out the30kchannel. I wish they dished out batreps more often, but i enjoy watching them. They seem to be thematic, and not really power gamey.

I enjoyed them too and even paid for a while until they barely put out content, let alone for those that spent for it. If it was more like tabletop tactics I’d put money into it, but in the year that I’ve been gone, they’ve put out 7 batreps (FETHING 7), which is about the amount I’ve played being inactive with school, a job, and getting employed in the real world. They’re content creators for feth’s sake. Most of their batreps now adays are one of two factions (UM and admech). I much enjoyed the SoH/IH one and the start of Prospero, but they both went nowhere after that. I gave them a chance and even paid for a while, but it just dragged on for so little value.

 

MWG was good for a while too but now it’s just games against Josh with the variety being NLs or Admech.

[Hellrender]

But i think a lot of people played 30k, because they were tired of the imbalance in 40k. That, and that 30k became a lot more accessable due to Calth and Prospero plastic boxes. It also shared most of the same rules. So it was relatively easy and "cheap" to get into 30k and play some fun games. That also evolved into 30k becoming maybe more competetive orientated? Maybe.

In any case, now a lot of people simply moved on. 8th is out, and it is a decent system, and you can play against a more varied set of armies. My point being is that i think that the 30k buzz simply went back to pre-betrayal at calth. People still play it, and certainly more than others, but content producers simply moved on to the system that is current, and regulary updated (which makes for far less repetetive content).

 

Sadly so.. 

 

But my hope is that MWG will put out an actual proper Heresy campaign. They have the models, and it would be awesome, as they do some nice campaigns. (i dont really care about the more competive or power gamey vids.

[Qkhitai]

Are there any people/groups/blogs putting out written battle reports for 30k with any regularity? I never much cared for the proliferation of video batreps we've seen over the past few years; rare to find anyone with the charisma to actually make it entertaining.

[Noserenda]

Are there any people/groups/blogs putting out written battle reports for 30k with any regularity? I never much cared for the proliferation of video batreps we've seen over the past few years; rare to find anyone with the charisma to actually make it entertaining.

Oh god this, Battle reports are so much better written down :) Battle bunnies did a few great ones but then seemed to trail off :( 

[depthcharge12]

Are there any people/groups/blogs putting out written battle reports for 30k with any regularity? I never much cared for the proliferation of video batreps we've seen over the past few years; rare to find anyone with the charisma to actually make it entertaining.

I’d ask the same. Winters SEO has some good ones as well as MWG and the aforementioned 30kchannel, but other than that it’s a crap shoot.

[Hesh Kadesh]

These broken units were basically spotted on the release. I know, because I was one of the people who made mention of them.

 

Shatter Shells were one of the worst decisions in the game.

 

I've got a couple of Zone Mortalis games this weekend. I won't have pictures, as we're using papercraft while I join the hobby again.

[ProsperoStands]

Here is the thing, 30k really is governed by the groups you play it in.

 

Thankfully the groups I have been privileged to be in have been pretty decent about keeping the cheese down.

 

Have conversations with your opponents and figure out what sort of game you are playing.

[Corswain]

I miss Guerrilla Miniature Games 30K stuff....

 

Generally speaking, I figured we’d see a slump between the release of 8th Edition and the proper Age of Darkness rulebook release and that certainly seems to have held true.

I had hoped that we would see a resurgance by now but it still seems pretty slow. That, to me, is the real problem, rather than a dip in content quality. There’s too little content being produced for there to be a drop in quality.

 

Can only hope that those who were producing good stuff get back to it and/or the lack of quality/quantity inspires new people to give it a crack themselves.

[Laughingman]

As with all things, there are going to be pockets of people who enjoy a more thematic / fluffy game and there will be those who are looking at tournament style gaming exercises where they can optimise their forces. I know a fair few people locally that have decently themed lists and have a great time using them without resorting to power builds and the like. One mate who's recently moved to the other end of the country was quite successfully running a Talons list with about two thirds Sisters and one third Custodes, something he started after completing a large 30k Space Wolves force long before Inferno was dropped. Not everyone is dropping Primarchs into mid sized games, but I get a feeling that those who aren't are less likely to be filming it and putting it into Bat-reps.

 

I would disagree with the thought that the 30k community is 'holding on to the worst excesses of 7th Edition 40k', and merely suggest that what you've been seeing has been symptomatic of all previous versions of 40k and most of GW gaming systems (and probably those outside of GW too), in that there will always be power gamers who actively look to take the army / build that is considered to be the most powerful. You can look back to things like Rhino spam, or Imperial Guard leaf-blower lists, and death-star units, every edition has had multiple occurrences of this. I would argue that whilst the 30k and 7th Edition 40k ruleset had a common base there were plenty of differences that left 30k less prone to power gaming - and I'm specifically looking at 40k formations which were a terribly badly implemented idea.

 

 

There are "ways" to punish the cheese lists... Play ZM game, Strategic raid, etc... Alternatively change the victory point conditions (if you are organizing an event) to punish the cheese. Especially for units that were rare in universe or were strategic assets (how many Leviathan dreadnoughts actually existed at the outbreak of the Horus heresy? )

[Warhead01]

I've lost interest in watching battle reports and I don't really enjoy filming and edition them either. which is kinda a shame we use troops and have big games with loads of stuff. 

I definitely prefer written reports with a lot of pictures and commentary.
I do prefer short form battle reports over a full 2+ hour video.

[Brad_hutcho]

But i think a lot of people played 30k, because they were tired of the imbalance in 40k. That, and that 30k became a lot more accessable due to Calth and Prospero plastic boxes. It also shared most of the same rules. So it was relatively easy and "cheap" to get into 30k and play some fun games. That also evolved into 30k becoming maybe more competetive orientated? Maybe.

 

In any case, now a lot of people simply moved on. 8th is out, and it is a decent system, and you can play against a more varied set of armies. My point being is that i think that the 30k buzz simply went back to pre-betrayal at calth. People still play it, and certainly more than others, but content producers simply moved on to the system that is current, and regulary updated (which makes for far less repetetive content).

 

Sadly so.. 

 

But my hope is that MWG will put out an actual proper Heresy campaign. They have the models, and it would be awesome, as they do some nice campaigns. (i dont really care about the more competive or power gamey vids.

I personally got into 30k, and got my son involved too because I love the setting and the fluff. I get to build a CC army that actually works with WE, and he gets to build a shooty army that can obliterate swathes of men with big guns in the IH. For me personally, the Horus Heresy is one of the greatest, most tragic tales GW have ever produced :-)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Having played a game today, and another few to play tomorrow, I can quite happily confirm that Imperialis. Ilitia are rather ridiculous in blood in the void at 625pts. 40+ S4 Rending Shots, and still have points left for FNP on everything AND 4 Rending Quad Multilasers?

 

Oy vey. My 6 Terminators were very put upon: Thank the Lord for Infiltrate.

[rendingon1+]

As for MWG batreps most of them were rather lame (if I remember it right). Dudes sometimes twisted the rules/forget them which makes watching it pointless from some moment because if not for their errors the battle would unfold completely different.

+ the guy who play AL with super weak list and being defeated almost every time. I mean, when you field a unit like Headhunters that just doesn't work and is expensive as hell in every battle? It's not about "being a fluff player that like x" (yeah, right) but about being inteligent enough to recognize weak elements in your list or gameplay and remove them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So lets just be clear, you're not saying Battle Reports have gotten worse due to poor production quality, unpainted armies, or lack of rules knowledge; they've gotten worse because you don't like that the lists are competitive?

 

I'm not sure where to start.

 

You may not like competitive 30k. That's fine, plenty of people don't, and I agree it can get stale when it becomes an arms race of laser vindis, leviathans etc... That doesn't mean a battle report is bad. There's a lot of time that goes into making a good one; the game itself usually gets lengthened by an hour or two, then editing, making a good thumbnail, etc...If they have fully painted armies (and they should for a good battle report imo) that's even more time. Saying that all the work put into creating some content doesn't matter and  the end result is "bad quality" because of the lists they use is very...discourteous.

 

From my own experiences as a more competitive player doing battle reports, when you generally have a smallish group of 4 guys, there tends to be some escalation. If you beat your one friend really badly with a particular unit, he tends to try and find an answer for them, and then you need to try and compensate for his new unit etc... In my case my buddy couldn't get through 40 adscularis with  fearless, 4+ and fnp, so he brought phosphex mortars. I'm pretty sure my thanatars can kill them, but I'll bring some outflanking units just to seal the deal. It's what happens.

Edited March 4, 2018 by SkimaskMohawk

[depthcharge12]

@Skimask

You’re definitely right with that as well. Poorly painted, poor production, etc. - but I’d rather watch something with that rather than a list dick-measuring contest which boils down to who can roll better.

 

I’ve started off being optimistic looking at the beginning of videos until they start showing the lists: “Ok and I took 2 batteries of quad mortars, two leviathans in drop pods, a fire raptor....and two token squads of tactical marines from, what legion did I paint again?” It just boils my blood.

 

I’m not against competitive lists if they fit the theme of the army (IW rite of war comes to mind), or even against “ubermensch lists” for tournaments as long as they are contained within a tournament. But seeing people put these reports out with the above lists just lacks the spirit of the Heresy and the community that enjoys putting fun thematic lists together.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Different communities. Something of us like very competitive matches and dislike narrative or fluff scenarios. If you don't like highly competitive lists that's fine, but that doesn't make a bat rep bad and neither is it against "the spirit of the heresy" . Whatever that's supposed to mean.

[m0nolith]

I recommend checking out the30kchannel. I wish they dished out batreps more often, but i enjoy watching them. They seem to be thematic, and not really power gamey.

The five bucks or whatever every month for their channel is worth every penny IMO.

 

The great thing about Heresy is the community itself and the ability to self moderate.

Don’t be a dingus and run quads with Phospex. If you’re running Custodes, give yourself a 25% point increase. Don’t run a Primarch unless the other guy is running a Primarch or a LoW as well, ect ect.

 

I have a list that has 3 Leviathans! All claw + drill, all footslogging!

Why? Because putting 3 Leviathans in 3 pods is just mean.

Footslogging 3 Levis with a CC build is not points efficient at all, but it’s just decent enough to be taken without it being cheesy.

 

This isn’t universal of course, there are some power gamers out there, but this type of self moderation happens FAR more often in 30k than in 40k.

 

This is why the 30k community is great...well that, and our stuff is actually painted :D

 

PS: On the subject of having an over abundance of vehicles. Now that multi-bombing is a thing again with Heresy 1st ed, we may see a gradual increase in infantry units with time.