About devastators

[Paladin777]

I intend to get a devastator box so I can make two squads of tacticals with a lascannon each for the ability to take potshots while objective sitting. The question is, what should I do with the rest of the devastators. I’m not opposed to getting a second box to make things like a grav-bomb.

 

I also intend on having a couple of Dreadnoughts with twin lascannon for supplementary anti-tank. Maybe not the absolute best choice but I’m not a tourney player and I think they’re plain cool!

[Slothysaur]

Grav Cannon Devs are still awesome. They don't require* a transport, but I highly rate giving them a Drop Pod (for your aforementioned Grav bomb). If you're into Primaris you can give heavy bolters and plasma cannons a miss (opinion incoming), I feel inceptors fulfil that role better in a BA list. Missile launchers can be fun, if only for the stratagem, but I've been more prone to putting that in a scout squad.

As it stands my collection includes 4 Lascannon, 8 Gravcannon, 2 Heavy Bolter and 2 Missile Launcher Devs; you can see where my bias lies (I'll probably not use all 8 Gravcannnons at the same time in 8th edition though).

[Bonzi]

At least one heavy Bolter might be worth it because of the hellfire rounds strategem.

[Paladin777]

So how about if I got two boxes and used two lascannons on the tac squads; one dev squad with 2 lascannon a HB and ML for the strategems and another dev squad with 4 grav cannons and a combi-grav on the sergeant and eventually get a drop pod (or Razorback.)

[Slothysaur]

Those are definitely the most commonly used weapons. I did forget about the Heavy Bolter strategem, though I quite commonly employ that on scouts rather than power armored bodies. All up to what you want really. I think you're headed in the right direction!

[dread05]

Not competitive by any stretch, but lately I've been thinking 3 heavy bolters and a plasma cannon for the sergeant to use the signum. Maybe go 2 and 2 so you have extra bodies for hellfire rounds and the signum.

[Karhedron]

So how about if I got two boxes and used two lascannons on the tac squads; one dev squad with 2 lascannon a HB and ML for the strategems and another dev squad with 4 grav cannons and a combi-grav on the sergeant and eventually get a drop pod (or Razorback.)

Sounds like a good combo. In some armies I would suggest a plasma cannon in a Dev squad to take advantage of the Signum but frankly I think BAs have excellent plasma caddies in the form of Plasma Inceptors or Jump Copmany Vets meaning that they aren't really needed on slower infantry.

[Ornithologist]

I have 2 Squads of them. one has 2 Lascannons and 2 missile Launchers. The other has 2 Plasma Cannons and 2 Heavy Bolters. 

 

One's anti-infantry with a smidge of anti armor/ and the other is anti Armor, with a smidge of anti infantry.

 

I still need to convert some Cherubs, as I got them before the Cherub existed.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I've been finding the 3 standout heavy weapons (for Devs and infantry) are Lascannons, Grav Cannons and Heavy bolters.

 

Lascannons for getting the job done against the big stuff

Gravcannnons for TEQ

and Heavy Bolters for truly efficient horde control.

 

The Missile Launcher is a mess imho.  The str 8 means it has a tough time punching the big tanks, and the -2 AP is just another potential for letdown. It's not offset, IMHO, by the frag missile loadout, which I don't think does a good job against hordes, based on the variable hits and low str, and non AP. I'd rather take 2.5 heavy bolters for the same price, getting me litterally twice as many shots, at higher strength, and better AP.  The decrease in range is not significant, as 36" is usually enough to get the job done.

 

Also not a fan of Plasma Cannons this edition. I like plasma guns, mind you, but not cannons.  I've generally been finding that the variable shots really screws things up, and if my opponent has any -1's to be hit (which there is a lot of), I'm not overcharging, even with a captain it's not worth it.

 

In short, split-fire makes split-profile fairly superflous.   And the grav cannon works as a great all around gun, due to the volume of shots, being good at horde control (if a bit overpowered) as well as anti-vehicle (if a bit underpowered).  The -1 to hit while moving doesn't hurt as much when you're throwing 4 dice out.

 

Multi-meltas just don't cut it for me this edition either.   The extra -1 ap doesn't make up for the lack of range and 12" damage bonus, nor the difference in wounding over a lascannon's higher strength (and range).   (But then again, you didn't even mention these, so I saved them for last.)

 

Don't forget the armorium cherub for 5 pts, and use it with your Signum for 2 shots hitting on 2's for a round.

[Paladin777]

@9x19: Those all make a lot of sense and I agree with pretty much everything said. The only reason I figured to take a missile launcher was for the flyer strategem.

[Paladin777]

In an alternative idea, would it be better to have heavy bolters on the tactical squads and then have a devastator squad of full lascannons and another devastator squad of grav cannons?

[Ekfud]

Not that I disagree with hoarding lots of sprues... but I recall Shapeways doing a grav cannon (or close proxy) if you wanted to save a second box? Getting 2 extra cannons is the lighter option particularly if the lascannons are going to tac squad bodies anyway.

[9x19 Parabellum]

In an alternative idea, would it be better to have heavy bolters on the tactical squads and then have a devastator squad of full lascannons and another devastator squad of grav cannons?

 

Depends on how optimized/competitive you're looking to get and what you're army point total is.

 

I'd probably fill my Heavy Support squads with Devs before I started putting heavy weapons on my Tacticals. I like my Tac squads to be moving around, and I like gun concentration, so I prefer to have 2 specials on my Tacs (special + sgt. combi).  Devastator squads give free Signums (and 5 pt. Armorium Cherubs), so if you're looking at heavy weapons, there is almost no reason not to take Devastator squads before dipping into Tacs for your heavy weapons (except force org slots, of course).

[Karhedron]

In an alternative idea, would it be better to have heavy bolters on the tactical squads and then have a devastator squad of full lascannons and another devastator squad of grav cannons?

 

There are pros and cons to mixing heavy weapons, just as there are to specialising.

 

Since split fire is thing in 8th, we don't have to worry about weapons firing at sub-optimal targets. The advantage of specialising in a single weapon type is that it makes the squad easier to use. Park as Lascannon Dev squad in cover with a good field of fire and they can pretty much take care of themselves. Put a Grav-bomb squad in a transport and drop them off mid-field and they are golden.

 

However putting all your weapons of 1 type in one place can also make life easy for your enemy. If he wants to take out your anti-tank, he just has to kill that one squad to seriously cripple your firepower. If you have 4 lascannons scattered across 4 squads, he is going to have a much harder time shutting them all down.

[Slothysaur]

 

 

In an alternative idea, would it be better to have heavy bolters on the tactical squads and then have a devastator squad of full lascannons and another devastator squad of grav cannons?

There are pros and cons to mixing heavy weapons, just as there are to specialising.

 

Since split fire is thing in 8th, we don't have to worry about weapons firing at sub-optimal targets. The advantage of specialising in a single weapon type is that it makes the squad easier to use. Park as Lascannon Dev squad in cover with a good field of fire and they can pretty much take care of themselves. Put a Grav-bomb squad in a transport and drop them off mid-field and they are golden.

 

However putting all your weapons of 1 type in one place can also make life easy for your enemy. If he wants to take out your anti-tank, he just has to kill that one squad to seriously cripple your firepower. If you have 4 lascannons scattered across 4 squads, he is going to have a much harder time shutting them all down.

Adding on to the spreading out of Lascannons; if you have 4 Dev squads with 1 Lascannon each that's a lot of wounds for your opponent to get through before he can even hurt your AT effectiveness. Plus you then have 4 Lascannons hitting with +1 from 4 Signums.

[Paladin777]

That maybe true, but with for tactical squads with one lascannon each you get objective secured…

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

 

In an alternative idea, would it be better to have heavy bolters on the tactical squads and then have a devastator squad of full lascannons and another devastator squad of grav cannons?

There are pros and cons to mixing heavy weapons, just as there are to specialising.

 

Since split fire is thing in 8th, we don't have to worry about weapons firing at sub-optimal targets. The advantage of specialising in a single weapon type is that it makes the squad easier to use. Park as Lascannon Dev squad in cover with a good field of fire and they can pretty much take care of themselves. Put a Grav-bomb squad in a transport and drop them off mid-field and they are golden.

 

However putting all your weapons of 1 type in one place can also make life easy for your enemy. If he wants to take out your anti-tank, he just has to kill that one squad to seriously cripple your firepower. If you have 4 lascannons scattered across 4 squads, he is going to have a much harder time shutting them all down.

Adding on to the spreading out of Lascannons; if you have 4 Dev squads with 1 Lascannon each that's a lot of wounds for your opponent to get through before he can even hurt your AT effectiveness. Plus you then have 4 Lascannons hitting with +1 from 4 Signums.

 

 

While spreading your guns around, and having ablative wounds is certainly not a bad idea, I think you are missing the ablative-wound-per-heavy-gun ratio if you only put 1 heavy in each devastator squad.  I have personally found that a unit of 6 Devastators, 1 sgt, 3 heavies and 2 ablative are about the optimal ratio in normal sized games.  Paying 52 points to give your lascannon 4 more wounds...I don't know...it just doesn't seem like an optimal investment to me.  For the same price (90 pts.) I'd rather just get a hunter tank which has 12 wounds at Toughness 8 and it's Skyspear Missile has about the same odds of hitting as a single lascannon with signum...but is a hell of a lot more durable.

[9x19 Parabellum]

That maybe true, but with for tactical squads with one lascannon each you get objective secured…

 

I think it's the wrong strategy  weapon loadout for our chapter tactic.  Tacs want to be able to move around, both to leverage a changing battlefield (achieving tactical objectives) and to be in striking range to use their red thirst, if and when necessary.  If you're toting around a gun that begs you to stay in place so as to not get a -1 to hit, you have conflicing priorities.  Why not just slough that gun off to devastators and free up your tacs to roam and assault?

[Panzer]

 

That maybe true, but with for tactical squads with one lascannon each you get objective secured…

 

I think it's the wrong strategy  weapon loadout for our chapter tactic.  Tacs want to be able to move around, both to leverage a changing battlefield (achieving tactical objectives) and to be in striking range to use their red thirst, if and when necessary.  If you're toting around a gun that begs you to stay in place so as to not get a -1 to hit, you have conflicing priorities.  Why not just slough that gun off to devastators and free up your tacs to roam and assault?

 

 

Imo if you don't use Tacticals for something like that you could just as well take Intercessors or Scouts instead. Lascannon Tacticals are good for any Space Marine army, even BA. Just because our units get +1 to-wound the turn they charge it doesn't mean it's always a good idea to plan with them to charge stuff.

Also keep in mind Marines have BS3+, after shooting something big for a turn or two you can move with them perfectly fine and still hit things on 4+. Marines are way less limited than other armies with their heavy weapons. ;)

[Paladin777]

With the bonus to hit or not, tacticals with their piddly one attack with no special weapons (barring the sergeant) aren’t exactly CC powerhouses...

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

 

That maybe true, but with for tactical squads with one lascannon each you get objective secured…

 

I think it's the wrong strategy  weapon loadout for our chapter tactic.  Tacs want to be able to move around, both to leverage a changing battlefield (achieving tactical objectives) and to be in striking range to use their red thirst, if and when necessary.  If you're toting around a gun that begs you to stay in place so as to not get a -1 to hit, you have conflicing priorities.  Why not just slough that gun off to devastators and free up your tacs to roam and assault?

 

 

Imo if you don't use Tacticals for something like that you could just as well take Intercessors or Scouts instead. Lascannon Tacticals are good for any Space Marine army, even BA. Just because our units get +1 to-wound the turn they charge it doesn't mean it's always a good idea to plan with them to charge stuff.

Also keep in mind Marines have BS3+, after shooting something big for a turn or two you can move with them perfectly fine and still hit things on 4+. Marines are way less limited than other armies with their heavy weapons.

 

With the bonus to hit or not, tacticals with their piddly one attack with no special weapons (barring the sergeant) aren’t exactly CC powerhouses...

 

I don't disagree with either of you, perse, regarding Tacs in general, which bespeaks to the general problem of Tacticals in almost all Astartes list.  Scouts and Intercessors are generally better (which is to say, they have a purpose) which is why you're seeing them used and not tacs.

 

But I don't see why you'd start giving lascannons to tacticals until after you've filled up 3 squads of devastators with lascannons first. Anything a tac can do with a lascannon, a devastator (or predator annhilator) can do better. 

 

But also let me be clear here; i'm not saying tacs with lascannons are the worst idea in the history of human ideas, ever.  I have a lot of experience playing with Tacs (because I love them) and since the OP asked for opinions on how to outfit his Tacs, I'm trying to give him the advice based on my experience.  I generally find my tacs more useful running around midfield with a couple special guns and Sgt with power sword to put pressure on the midfield objectives, rather than babysitting backfield ones (which devastators themselves can do as well.)

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Then again, I've lost 9 of my last 11 games, so what the hell do I know! :-D

[SydonianDragoon404]

The point of tactical marines is give you a way to block deepstrikes into your deployment zone and still have the unit contribute to the battle. A lascannon is the easiest way to do this. If your tactical marines are advancing up the board, what is keeping the bloodletter bomb from dropping in your lines and wiping your backfield? 

[9x19 Parabellum]

The point of tactical marines is give you a way to block deepstrikes into your deployment zone and still have the unit contribute to the battle. A lascannon is the easiest way to do this. If your tactical marines are advancing up the board, what is keeping the bloodletter bomb from dropping in your lines and wiping your backfield? 

 

Scouts, for cheaper. Not saying you can't do it with Tacs, mind you, just saying Scouts are better at it.

[Panzer]

Keeping Scouts in your backfield means they'll do nothing most of the game tho. Lascannon Tacticals can at least threaten some big stuff in the meantime. Scouts do better work midfield, trust me.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Keeping Scouts in your backfield means they'll do nothing most of the game tho. Lascannon Tacticals can at least threaten some big stuff in the meantime. Scouts do better work midfield, trust me.

 

Depends on the scout though doesn't it?

 

A  scout unit, backfield, with a missile launcher and pistol/blades performs the following;

-denies deepstrike territory

-camps backfield objective

-has a better counterattack than tacticals in the event they do deepstrike

-still has very good reach-out-and-touch someone potential with a missile launcher.

-is 10 points cheaper

 

A lot of this is spinning around, though, as it all depends on what else he has in his army and what the points value he is building at is.

______________________________________________

 

To get back around to the OP's original question, though.

If I had just purchased a box of devastators, (and currently had no other heavy weapons) I would make:

 

A sgt with signum, storm bolter and chainsword (actually I'd magnetize, but if I wasn't going to bother with that, I'd do StBlt+ChSw)

2x Lascannons

2x Grav Cannons

1x Weapon of your choice (but probably a heavy bolter)

 

That being said, I do ALL my heavy weapons with the "Devastator" icon and I don't worry about Tac vs. Dev icons, because when my heavy weapons join a tactical squad, I conceive of it in the same fashion that modern US military does, where a heavy weapons gets parsed out, "on loan" as it were from a weapons platoon. I don't paint or icon them with a permanent residency in a tactical squad. I can then just freely attach them as I see fit to tac squads.