Are Transports Obsolete?

[Marshal Laeroth]

Heya.  So this is a topic that has been stewing for some time for me and has influenced my lists dramatically.  I have found that transports are eating up my precious points in an army that is already hamstrung by elite price tags.  That those transports do not have the kill power capacity to warrant utilization in today's competitive metagame.  If we don't take transports, we are able to fill additional slots in the army and that is ultra-important these days.

 

I am including such units as LRC's, Stormravens, Rhinos, Drop Pods, and Razorbacks.  I just can't do it until there is a points adjustment.   Am I way off base here?

[redmapa]

While Im not too invested in the competitive meta I do think Rhinos have a place and are wort it if you take them to run 10 man Crusader squads, then the question is are 10 men Crusader squads really worth it? If you are running other units that dont need a transport then you could just run 5 men Crusaders or Intercessors and forget about them. Land Raiders are expensive but I love them and they are quite tanky, Drop Pods are kind of crap but can be useful to get a group of characters close to the deep striking units that you may be running.

 

Are transports obsolete? No, Rhinos are what make Crusaders into a viable close combat force but transports in general are not such a must take for other units or purposes.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

From a gaming perspective, transports are actually quite crucial in a game, while they might not have the killing capacity to make their points back, they will do their job which is transporting units to their destination. This is extremely apparent with transports like Drop Pods and Stormravens, that's why they have such a high price tag, especially with Drop Pods that have just 1 weapon and will only transport units once...

 

The main issue, is the hefty price tag that comes with using transports... but you'd need them if you want to play aggressively... if you'd rather not have transports, then I would suggest getting fast moving units such as Bikers or Assault Marines, as mobility still plays a huge part in the current setting of W40k

[Acebaur]

I think transports are better than ever. The ability to transport multiple units is huge, especially on higher capacity vehicles like LR's and Storm Ravens, and even Rhino's to an extent. Also these units are significantly tougher than they used to be and if your opponent is wasting high S and damage weapons on killing your transports then those same guns aren't shooting at other expensive multi-wound models like bikes or TDA.

 

Furthermore I think you are underestimating the firepower that some of them can bring to bear. AC Razorbacks are scary, putting out 12 shots on a relatively cheap platform. LRC's are of course a beast now with the changes to both AC and Hurricanes. Even the lowly rhino with a cheap 2 point SB will put out 8 shots inside of 12"  Against horde units with crappy armor saves that is a pretty good amount of carnage. Stormraven's are boss, packing basically whatever kind of firepower you need to kill stuff and transporting 12 guys and a dreadnought which can assault something on turn 2. 

[Firepower]

I am inclined to agree that Transport prices are rather crippling in the list building stages.  Pods in particular are ruthlessly overpriced, but Rhinos, LRC, and Raven are pricey enough to force a lot of corner cutting as well.  I don't think a 10 man Crusader Squad is much good for general melee, at least not enough to justify paying so much for a Rhino to help get them there.  The LRC and Ravens are particularly disturbing when building lists.  The Raven can be justified as a mean gunship without even transporting models, but the LRC is less so (for its price), and once you start adding up the cost of what you stick inside, you can end up with a third of the army in one tank.

 

It's why these days I've been looking at Tide again.  There are a couple of lists in the Old Fart thread leaning that way.

 

It's worth noting that the price increases on general Transports (Rhinos, Razors and Pods) is somewhat justified by 8th's kinder rules, with no stunning or random Deep Strike landings, but in return a necessary unit for most armies doubled in cost.  Can't say I feel it's necessarily a fair trade.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Firepower

[SydonianDragoon404]

The main thing I am seeing with how the meta is evolving is that specifically space marine transports are getting phased out because of the increase in the number of strong AT weapons factions are being able to bring out to your standard 2k point game. A single twin lascannon Razorback used to be able to stand up a decent amount of punishment, given that many factions didn't have the points to spam high power long range AT weapons, or buff them to make them more reliable. Now that Guard, Nids, and Eldar are out, and soon to be Tau as well, all of those factions have become exponentially more effective at killing enemy vehicles. Not just due to price decreases, but also due to new synergies and support for those weapons. I field 2 twin lascannon razorbacks quite often, and they usually do not survive past turn 2. Dark Lances, Bright Lances, Artillery, Rail cannons, Exocrines, Tyrannofexes firing twice, etc. I use the razorbacks purely as gun platforms quite often these days because it just isn't worth the trouble of trying to use them as transports. 

 

For my local meta, people are starting to juice their lists and be as efficient as possible and squeeze as much firepower as possible out of the points available. Points spent on transports are points not spent on guns.

 

Most melee units that are worth anything at the current moment have a means of deployment via deepstrike or outflank. 

 

Just a couple things that I've taken note of. YMMV. 

[arigatous]

Razorback is very strong in this edition, both with LCs and ACs.

 

Rhino is good as well. For 74 points you basically get the firepower of four vanilla marines + T7 + transport capabilities + ability to chargelock almost any unit.

 

LRC should be close to the enemy to work as a transport and if it is close, than it will become chargelocked, so not a good choice in this edition. Raven could be used instead since it's hard to chargelock.

 

Drop Pod is a complete waste. Basically it gives deepstrike ability to up to 10 infantry models for 83 points which means at least 8 points per model - super expensive.

[Halandaar]

A Rhino with 2 Storm Bolters costs about that same as 5 Initiates and a Neophyte; it has a similar amount of firepower but twice as many wounds, almost twice as high a toughness, can move your other squads around at twice their normal speed and once it's deposited them, can smash into an enemy squad to tie them up in combat.

 

If your opponent is using dedicated anti-tank weapons against a Rhino to remove it, then they are ignoring your other high value assets.

[tvih]

"On paper" it seems to me Rhinos with dual storm bolters - maybe even a HKM thrown in - are quite decent. Razorback with SB+TLHB+HKM is decent as well, but the other primary weapon upgrades seem rather expensive.

 

With some bad luck Land Raiders can die sooo fast for their point cost. It was always true of course, but now the prices are even higher. Drop pod seems entirely ridicilous compared to just buying units that can deep strike on their own.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Here's the problem with utilizing vehicles right now. Multi damage weapons are extremely efficient when shooting vehicles because none of that damage is wasted. Lets take a Twin Lascannon Razorback vs. a Devastator squad with 2 lascannons. They are fairly comparable in terms of point value.

 

If your opponent is shooting dark lances, plasma, missiles, etc, at that Razorback, none of that damage gets lost. All of it gets applied to wound stat of your single model. A devastator squad is 5 individual models with 1 wound. So basically, you're forcing your opponent to waste the point cost efficiency of their multi damage weaponry on killing a single model at a time. Those devastators are also easier to put in cover, easier to hide, and they have the auspex thing. The single attack at +1 I can't remember what its called. 

 

Basically what we're looking at, depending on your meta, is we're back to the old rock paper scissors. Vehicles were everywhere for a while and so now people are fielding tons of very efficient AT and multi damage. Eventually the meta will shift toward infantry spam to counter it, and people will bring anti infantry again. Thing is, a balanced with list a smattering of both has become inefficient because of how good multi damage weaponry currently is due to price and synergies. So depending on who you're fighting, your opponent will kill your vehicles efficiently and they often won't make their points back. Especially if you go second. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by SydonianDragoon404

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Signum?

[tvih]

Hmm, speaking of Devastators and Signum. I guess that for a single turn you could even get off two shots from the Signum-boosted model by using an Armorium Cherub. Certainly something to keep in mind for when I finally get around to using Devastators.

[Firepower]

In terms of Pods, there's little purpose beyond Dreadnoughts and Sternguard, unless you really want to go all out and throw some heroes at the enemy on turn 1 as well.  Still, the price of them is almost as prohibitive as painting the damn things.

 

Throne willing, the Raiders will get a cost reduction next time Chapter Approved comes around.  Jacking up the cost of Twin Assault Cannons to stifle Razor spam had some far reaching complications.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Firepower

[Honda]

*cough, power levels, *cough

[Marshal Wolfhart]

My observations considering Space Marine transports:

Pods are pretty much useless due to cost (competitively speaking, fluffy games be fluffy). Land Raiders are overpriced, but can be made to work when built around.

Razorbacks are strong, more in a weapons carrier role, than as transports, as they get you cheap heavy weapons on a sturdy chassis. Rhinos are good to reposition turn 1, then act as a nuisance. Stormravens are still going strong, for their transport as well as the firepower.

In my experience transports are not as much on/off as they used to be (as in everyone needs one or noone needs one), Rhinos being picked singularly or in pairs seem to suffice. I really hated those parking lot lists... ;)

[tvih]

I hadn't realized they actually changed codex points values in Chapter Approved. I've always liked Twin Assault Cannon Razorbacks, though rarely used them. Now they're rather pricey. Still decent against hordes, I guess.

 

It's a bit silly though is that that Razorback suffers from the same thing as terminator heavy weapon options - crappy heavy flamers. Heavy flamers average less hits than an assault cannon does, all the while having lower strength and 1/3 of the AC's range as well. The one and only upside it has is overwatch, yet it is quite pricey. On the Razorback the difference is bigger now with the increased cost of TAC, but on terminators no such boon for the flamer. Kind of a similar situation with storm bolter vs regular flamer on models that can choose between those, except the SB is only a fraction of the cost of the flamer.

[Medjugorje]

In my lists there are Rhinos very important.

 

Obsolete are LRC, Stormraven as Transports, but they are good in firepower.

[4ndroid]

I agree Rhinos are great tools to soak up Fire and overwatch. My Razorback load outs have been less inspiring. What I was playing Guard last fall my Leman Russ tanks would smash every LandRaider, Repulsor, and StormRaven within one or two wounds of it’s life on my first volley. Last match my Grey Knights got tabled in the 4th by Slaneesh running 90 deamonettes, anti-horde is a big problem for Space Marines

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Yeah the most reason why hordes are so prevalent in this edition is because of the lackluster treatment given to template weapons in their change of rules... anyone running anything on open ground would think twice back then if you were running a Vindicator with it's massive pie plates... alas, it can now only kill a max of 6 models if it's even lucky enough to roll a 6... and don't get me started on flamers...

 

If template weapons that are made to take out hordes of enemies make a massive comeback, then there goes all your horde worries and everyone would want to take transports back again to cover up against flamers and vindicator shells...

 

edit: imho, transports would be quite necessary if your enemy has a lot of RoF weaponry to clear out hordes, but has few anti-tanks, so it becomes really situational to the meta in your play area... if everyone is bringing hordes or MSU and someone decides to bring anti-horde, and you bring tanks, you'll be the scissor to his paper, and he'll be the paper to everyone's stone...

Edited March 6, 2018 by Marshal_Roujakis

[Firepower]

A lot of folks like the Raven but are disheartened by how easily (and quickly) it gets shot down, largely because everyone knows what a threat it poses with or without cargo.  A potential solution to this is to bring another big nasty vehicle like a Land Raider, but then you've invested a huge amount of points, and a dangerous shooting army like Guard tank lines have a decent chance of blowing them both out of the water before they can earn that price tag. 

 

Another alternative is to scare the hell out of the opponent by pressing their lines with Deep Strike/Infiltrate units to force target saturation conundrums, i.e. shoot the Raven or the Ironclad in your face, but if they get Turn 1 then there is no Ironclad to worry about as yet.  I can't quite recall if the Raven starts off on the table, though...

Edited March 6, 2018 by Firepower

[Marshal Laeroth]

I am glad that there has been some discussion over this topic.  That is what I was hoping for.  So here is my position.  I think that mobility definitely is important.  However, that is mitigated by deep strike and/or faster units on the board.  Nevertheless, the "mobility" of the game is pretty much watching your opponent run at you as quickly as they can.  Or they are large groups of infantry.

 

The costs of taking the transport is not offset by the transport capability.  Unlike in previous editions, I do not "gain" by sitting in the transport.  For all intents and purposes, the unit inside does not exist.  It can't shoot (no firepoints), cannot claim objectives, does not provide anything to the battle.  Nor does the weaponry make it worthwhile to take.  I see the commonly stated reason that storm bolter rhinos put out similar firepower as 5-man bolter squad.  However...that squad does not provide useful firepower to the game. Its great add-on damage, but I don't go out of my way to spend 74 points for it.  Razorbacks are...okay...but they got super expensive.  The only one I can halfway convince myself to use is the twin-HB razorback due to points cost (twin-AC's got nerfed too hard imo).  Even if my opponent didn't easily ignore my transports due to their negligent impact on the game, they can kill them with relative ease.  But I personally wouldn't spend a bunch of time worrying about them.

 

My point is...I cannot validate spending points on glorified storm bolter platforms, when I need things that kill stuff.  Or adversely, more bodies/threats on the board.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Exactly my thoughts as well, the board is only 6x4 feet, and most units are not having to cross the entirety of it. Some of the faster units can cross that distance with ease. Others don't have to at all when they can just deepstrike in or shoot from afar. Something I would love to see is what happens to the game when the range of all shooting weaponry in the game is halved. 

[tvih]

Ah yes, I again forgot about Rhinos losing their fire points. I didn't even realize it when I played my first and only 8th edition game. It IS rather silly, really.

[Firepower]

Fun thought: we may see the return of the Black Tide simply because our cars got too expensive :teehee:

[Medjugorje]

Fun thought: we may see the return of the Black Tide simply because our cars got too expensive

lol - maybe for Primaris-lists. But not for Crusaders