Melee Crusader Squads

[Crusader_Aleister]

Are melee Crusader Squads viable right now?  Sure, you can put them in Rhinos to get them close, and then use the Rhinos to soak overwatch, but even then their statline is pretty meager unless you’re up against a pure gunline with screens that are weak in melee.  I haven’t played a lot of battles with them yet, but I’ve been wondering if Intercessors with a power sword on the Sergeant might be better due to the extra attack and wounds.  I feel like the Crusaders don’t live long enough for the power weapons to matter. I’ve considered adding in Neophytes for more ablative wounds, but that means I need more Rhinos, which are pretty costly, or I am going to foot slog, in which case the extra ablative wounds can be taken out before I close in.

 

So far, I’m tending more towards using Intercessor squads with a power sword to screen my ranged MSU Crusader squads, with my assault portion of the army coming from Terminators, Centurions, Dreadnoughts, Helbrecht, and Emp. Champ.  Does this seem better?  I’m just trying to make sure I’m not missing out on melee Crusaders before I give up on them.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

This is a recurring issue, we have discussed it in several other threads. I'm not pointing you to them to be dismissive, but it saves people giving the same advice over and over, (not that some of them seem to mind!)

 

Firepower's quest for a melee focussed crusade: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344613-old-fart-versus-new-world-an-ongoing-saga/

Marshal Von Trapp's quest to renew his faith: www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344561-help-me-renew-my-zeal/

Radioactive Toy's thread as a newbie: www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343512-getting-started-in-8th-edition-with-templars/page-2

 

In my opinion, you've stumbled on the real problem with our army. As Firepower says, we have the best chance of getting our troops into melee, but once there our crusader squads hit like a wet fish.

[Medjugorje]

try it and you will see. But Black Templar and Close Combat and Games Workshop..... one of this participants you have to cross out - always.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Medjugorje

[Crusader_Aleister]

Thanks, sorry about that!

[Schlitzaf]

“Something MSU vs Tide, Melee things”

 

First off a Crusader Squad in Rhino should not be Melee. Rhino is a method of Deployment not delivery. Having to disembark at start of movement means you are paying 70 Points for 6ish of movement. And that extra 6” overs footwalking means you’ll get within 2” of the enemy. But we already have our tactics so making an 8” (7”) Charge is not an unreasonable prospect.

 

Second MSU Squads are garbage in melee. They lack durability and hitting power, they are poor receivers of command points. Crusader Squad is Melee inclined should be a tide squad of 13+ men (and point for point they have as many raw attacks as Vang, with Equal Neo/Init Ratio). 10 man below shouldn’t use PowWeapon at all and instead utilize high RoF like Heavy Bolter and GravCannons. Because you are in Rhino, jump out turn two. And multishot to mitigate -1 to hit roll. Power Swords are good in larger Squads, because you are paying 8 Points of 0.5 damage increase (and yes ChainBro with 2 is more efficient than SwordBro with 1.

 

But the 4 Points you spend do increase your damage over a ChainBro. It’s good in tide because you have so many raw attacks losing 1 isn’t a massive deal). Tide Squads are good because either for buff auras, better receivers of CP, (and by extension less likely to have issue with a staggered front you’ll experience with MSU. Sense you can spend CP to Reroll poor advance or charge rolls).

 

And with the issue of “But my boys get shot up”, target saturation. 2-3 Reivars 0-2 Interceptors. All drop turn 1. It’s why I run 8-12 deep/forward Deployment Units in my List. Long story short with your post;

Tide not Mecha

Tide not MSU

Distraction Fexes.

 

If you want to Melee. But seriously, MSU is something more for shooty Units. Melee you want larger units to better receive and be better on the reception of charge.

[TheOneTrueZon]

From my playing experience in 8th, with mixed transports - getting a crusader squad & friends with melee to support vanguard and terminator elements is not so hard to do. They do their role very well as long as the deployment is mindful and the enemy focus fire on the elites rather than the squad. I run a TH/SS squad of terminators out of deep strike with an LRC full of crusaders in range to disembark, move and charge, the terminators charge first and soak up the overwatch, or first apply reivers and cancel the overwatch and then just run them into the wall and let the dice fall where they may. 

 

So if you want your crusader melee squads to be the lead singer in the band, you're going to have a hard time. They're support singers right now, but by the Emperor they will sing with the chorus of amassed chainsword attacks. 

[arigatous]

Are melee Crusader Squads viable right now?

 

Against which army?

 

C:SM is based on synergy between squads and heroes. Crusader's melee squad by itself is pretty useless. The same squad backed up by a Lieutenant and Chaplain's aura is a completely different story.

 

9 Crusaders backed up by heroes can wipe out 20+ Guards or Daemons in a single charge.

 

vs Plague Marines... well, not that effective. Still you can expect to kill around 4-5 while charging.

Edited March 7, 2018 by arigatous

[Castellan Doren]

Mine have become a mid game clean up crew.

 

Turn one deepstrike assault marines, terminators, etc.

 

Turn two position rhinos or LRC to deploy crusaders on turn 3.

 

Turn 3 unleash hell. And one EC.

 

They do ok. But losing the extra attack on charge really nerfed the hell out of them. It could be argued that the bolt pistol round maintains that attack effectiveness. But a smart player will remove the dead to widen the gap to make the charge harder on us.

[Schlitzaf]

Unless you kill enough models so you have to make 10” (9” Charge) it shouldn’t be terribly relavent. As 9” (8”) or below, you have a 50% pass rate already. With our tactics we are almost always gonna make charges where we don’t need to row 9 or higher. So while your not wrong about the danger of opponent’s removing models. It’s also not terribly relavent for us in particular.

[Medjugorje]

i want to try this Imperium: Battalion Detachment - 838 Punkte

***************  2 HQ  ***************  

1 Lieutenant
- 1 x Combi-melta
- 1 x Power sword  - - - > 83 Punkte

High Marshal Helbrecht  - - - > 170 Punkte


***************  3 Standard  ***************  

Crusader Squad
8 Initiates
- 5 x Chainsword + Bolt pistol
- Plasma gun
- Power sword
5 Neophytes
- 5 x Combat knife + Bolt pistol
+ Sword Brother
   - 1 x Power sword
   - 1 x Combi-plasma  - - - > 195 Punkte

Crusader Squad
8 Initiates
- 5 x Chainsword + Bolt pistol
- Plasma gun
- Power sword
5 Neophytes
- 5 x Combat knife + Bolt pistol
+ Sword Brother
   - 1 x Power sword
   - 1 x Combi-plasma  - - - > 195 Punkte

Crusader Squad
8 Initiates
- 5 x Chainsword + Bolt pistol
- Plasma gun
- Power sword
5 Neophytes
- 5 x Combat knife + Bolt pistol
+ Sword Brother
   - 1 x Power sword
   - 1 x Combi-plasma  - - - > 195 Punkte

Imperium: Patrol Detachment - 243 Punkte

***************  1 HQ  ***************  

Chaplain Grimaldus  - - - > 120 Punkte


***************  3 Elite  ***************  

3 Cenobyte Servitors  - - - > 6 Punkte

Company Ancient
+ - Power sword  - - - > 67 Punkte

Honour Guard
- 2 x Power sword  - - - > 50 Punkte


Gesamtpunkte der Armee : 1081
Powerlevel der Armee : 62
Kommandopunkte der Armee : 6
 

[AlmightyWalrus]

Honour Guard can't take Power Swords (or any other Power Weapons other than Axes) anymore. It's probably the single most neutered unit in the army compared to last edition.

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

I think the honour guard can take swords via the index

[Schlitzaf]

That list really shouldn’t have both Grim and Helbrect. Grim and Helbrect belong in two very different lists. One of them should be the emperor’s champion. Also banners and tides are really really sad. It says model in 6” not unit in 6” for the last shot.

[Medjugorje]

its just the foundation and why the hell i shouldnt Grimaldus running with Helbrecht.... that argument is wrong

That list really shouldn’t have both Grim and Helbrect. Grim and Helbrect belong in two very different lists. One of them should be the emperor’s champion. Also banners and tides are really really sad. It says model in 6” not unit in 6” for the last shot.

i forget to mention that we need the relic banner - so there is a real fearless bubble

[Schlitzaf]

It’s a complete unnecessary waste of Points entirely. Helbrect buffs to be used effectively need small compact lists of 2-3 5 Man Squads. Helbrect benefits form using Hammers and Power Fists due to full rerolls and the strength occurring before modification, enabling you to wound things like Plague Marines and Biker style Units on 2. While also wounding T8 And T9 Monsters on 3. Best stacked with a Castallen to make full use of those rerolls. Further Helbrect is a combat character with Strength, and a 2+ save, he can go toe to toe with the best of the them. So you want him in the frontline leading the charge.

 

Grimaldus Leadership Aura, Extra Attacks and more benefit from larger squad size. Further he is an absolutely atrocious combat character with a mediocre melee weapon, 3+ save, and only 4 wounds. He should be hiding and not engaged in combat. And given his aura you want to run lighting claws, Chainsword and more to make best benefit and get a better chance to hit on 6’s. And more opprotunities.

 

Any list that is running Helbrect and Grimaldus requires two very distinctive and different centers. Or you are running a Center where you are effectively wasting one of the two of them. Espacially given, each of them is the price of the Marshall + Castallen, and in case of the a second Castallen. You want to be using them effectively from the get go. Your list is a tide list, and as such gains little benefit from Helbrect. You are increasing your damage by 33%. For about 12 models at any given time. Or you are shooting and wasting Grimaldus, when you should be advancing every turn into you are engaged.

 

You can do so, but your list there, is absolutely not a list that can use Helbrect and Grimaldus.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Hey from the thread I posted a few weeks ago mentioned above I learned a few things that I can share.

 

Rule 1) More targets means less overall damage, if you have lots of things for the enemy to shoot either they have to focus one down or spread their fire, leaving everything mostly ok.

 

Rule 2) Redundancy is key! If you have a melee tide squad, you better have at least 1-2 more, you have a deep striking vanguard squad, same thing. The more one one thing you have the more likely any one is of doing it's job because of rule 1

 

Rule 3) Math and probability are just a tool and cannot substitute for what can actually happen. Just because you have a 3+ save doesn't mean you will always lose 1/3 of the wounds you take. So just because math tells you some things are not optimal doesn't mean they always will be in every game!

 

And finally, it's a game, just have fun with it!

[Medjugorje]

it was just a foundation. I would use minimum 3x crusader squads. And then a few other units...

 

2 crusaders fight with helbrecht and 1 crusader fight with Grimaldus.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Medjugorje