Philosophizing; how do you balance your RG army?

[9x19 Parabellum]

So after having played a good number of games now with both my Raven Guard and Blood Angels in 8th edition, I have happened upon some insight that I'd like to share with you all, and solicit your comments and/or arguments.

 

The first thing that has struck me is how absolutely different two Chapters (RG vs. BA) can play all due to their Chapter Tactic.

 

I'll give you one example of many: My "Lascannons" in my RG army are all on Devastator Squads.  This is because their long range means they'll typically be outside the 12" range and will leverage our chapter tactic for a good long while.  In my Blood Angel army, when I need punch, I use my Predator Annhilator. I don't care about having them on a vehicle vs. infantry because there is no chapter tactic to leverage on a unit that's going to sit that far back and I'd prefer the T7.

 

Here's a problem, though. I tend to find myself getting hung up on our chapter tactic, to the extent that it drives all my decision making.  Wanting to secure that sweet, sweet, -1 to be hit, I tend to build my RG as a gunline army.   Now, it is typically effective, to be sure, but can also be very boring to play.  I have found myself using Strike from the Shadows, not as a potential forward close combat threat (since I can't be sure I'll be going first), but rather as a hide-and-seek for my big guns. (For example, last night I used SftS twice for my 2 big devastator squads so my opponent would not know where they were going.)

 

Then, I tend to find, after I build my list, I have very few if any assault elements, mostly because I just can't get around disregarding our chapter tactic.

 

The exact opposite tends to apply when I build my Blood Angels.  I tend to go very assault oriented, although at least my troop tax prevents me from going all in with that, since you really can't with Tacs (moreso with Scouts).

 

This also propels to, if I want to play a balanced list, building 2 separate detachments, a gunline for RG and a forward CC element for Blood Angels.  I don't have a problem with this, perse, as the color scheme works well together, and the 2 chapters compliment each other beautifully, but it would be nice to try to make a single chapter work as well.

 

So I'm curious how you guys tend to build your list, and if anyone gets shoehorned, mentally, into the same dilemma I do.  How do you resolve it, if you in fact you do at all?

[MajorNese]

To be honest, the only way the chapter tactic is shoehorning my lists is that I tend to drop vehicles and stock up on more non-vehicles. With our CT, infantry and bikes are resilient enough not to need transports. Having fewer vehicles means the few just die to all the AT one usually brings, as there are just very few proper targets for the AT. Which ends up in losing quite a few points just for giving the opponent the targets he prepared for.

 

As for the gunline vs. mobile army, this has had little impact for me. I prefer counter-deployment at a time and place that suits me (read: deep strike) and mop up things from there on. Gunlines without much movement are just boring to play IMO.

 

And that's where our chapter tactic still works. Nothing keeps skirmisher units like scout bikers or reivers alive better than not getting hit in the first place. Advance the skirmisher units in cover, and they will stick around until the deep strikers arrive, join up with them and continue mopping up. At that point, the 12" -1 to hit might get lost, but I prefer having the biker captain at hammer range and the scout bikers in rapid fire range. Losing the CT bonus is mostly irrelevant at that stage.

 

As an example of units using that particular range in my previous lists: Inceptors, grav cannon devs, hellblasters/reivers/intercessors, sternguard, bikers/trikes of all sorts, assault squads (>12" distance before movement = in CC next round). Bonus points for Raptors players, Issodon can drop quite a few PA units in that particular range. Max out the 3 units you can take, drop in cover, and you got yourself a nice midfield brick of all-rerolling dakka.

[Claws and Effect]

I don't.

 

I tend to take units I like and figure out how to make it work in a list.

 

The only thing I make a point of is making sure I have sufficient AT firepower to balance my other units.

[9x19 Parabellum]

To be honest, the only way the chapter tactic is shoehorning my lists is that I tend to drop vehicles and stock up on more non-vehicles. With our CT, infantry and bikes are resilient enough not to need transports. Having fewer vehicles means the few just die to all the AT one usually brings, as there are just very few proper targets for the AT. Which ends up in losing quite a few points just for giving the opponent the targets he prepared for.

 

I also tend to avoid taking vehicles in my SM lists, partly because they cost a lot this edition and I like having lots of guys to move around, and partly for the chapter tactic issue.

 

 

 

As for the gunline vs. mobile army, this has had little impact for me. I prefer counter-deployment at a time and place that suits me (read: deep strike) and mop up things from there on. Gunlines without much movement are just boring to play IMO.

 

And that's where our chapter tactic still works. Nothing keeps skirmisher units like scout bikers or reivers alive better than not getting hit in the first place. Advance the skirmisher units in cover, and they will stick around until the deep strikers arrive, join up with them and continue mopping up. At that point, the 12" -1 to hit might get lost, but I prefer having the biker captain at hammer range and the scout bikers in rapid fire range. Losing the CT bonus is mostly irrelevant at that stage.

 

As an example of units using that particular range in my previous lists: Inceptors, grav cannon devs, hellblasters/reivers/intercessors, sternguard, bikers/trikes of all sorts, assault squads (>12" distance before movement = in CC next round). Bonus points for Raptors players, Issodon can drop quite a few PA units in that particular range. Max out the 3 units you can take, drop in cover, and you got yourself a nice midfield brick of all-rerolling dakka.

 

So what are you taking? Mostly Vanguard Vets? Termies?

 

How are you "counter deploying" your Grav Cannon Devs/Hellblasters, Intercessors, Sternguard, etc?  Are you StfS on them or using drop pods?

 

I wish I could watch some of you experienced RG players in action to see how you play your games.  I'd love to play less static gunline, but so far haven't figured out something that works.

Edited March 9, 2018 by 9x19 Parabellum

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

At 2000 points I always have Shrike in there with some flavour of vanguard/inceptors.  I just cant really see the point in playing raven guard without this type of element in my list.  Shrike is phenomenal for this so Im cool with it.  

 

 

On the flip side of this.. ive been building up a Chaos army and it is completely rudderless.  I've been adding models from ebay and the FLGS junk pile.  So my army is a multi god multi codex, technicolour soup.  I dont really feel constrained by anything other than available models.  

 

Tomorrow im playing a narrative game with a list I totally made up for the hell of it using the new 1k sons codex and the daemons codex.  Im just gonna spam some cool spells and summon lots of blood letters.  

 

Overall I'd say sticking with what is obviously strong is good but I'm having more fun playing Chaos as chaotically as I can.  Im sure you could do the same with space marines.  

[Dracos]

Shrike and 5 Interceptors (Reserve)

Shadow-Grav Captain and 5 Aggressors (SftS)

- 2 five man Reivers with Grav-chutes and Carbines as support

 

Idea is to target two flank or backfield targets and apply pressure at weak spots, initially avoiding hard targets. Those targets would have been surging toward to two Heavy Plasma Hellblaster squads that are hopefully bubble wrapped in forward deployed Sniper Scouts and intervening 4 five man squads of Intercessors.

 

I think I even prefer going second given our Chapter Tactic if I can find the Aggressors some cover 18” form their target. Force your opponent into committing and making choices then drop the Hammer with the Reserves where they’ve made a mistake.

 

I’d love to find a way to have enough units to SftS with the third Captain and the Heavy Plasma Blasters but priority goes to the Aggressors. I’m using a five man squad hoping that allows a few to accompany Grav-Captain into melee with all those sweet sweet power fist attacks. :)

[MajorNese]

 

So what are you taking? Mostly Vanguard Vets? Termies?

 

How are you "counter deploying" your Grav Cannon Devs/Hellblasters, Intercessors, Sternguard, etc?  Are you StfS on them or using drop pods?

I don't have termies or vanguard. I dislike one-trick ponys like SftS vanguard turn 1 charge, and both units seem too squishy for their points.

 

The hellblasters get SftS. 24" range on assault weapons mean they will reach their target, and always benefit from CT. Intercessors (rapid fire version) are my preferred skirmishers (as well as mandatory troops), they just walk out of deployment and stick to ruins. Makes them crazy resilient against small arms, and they can go on to take objectives. Grav cannon devs and sternguard deep strike via Issodon (Raptors chapter master, allows 3 power armoured units to deep strike with him), and with 15-24" range, they can mostly land in cover. Grav have enough range to stay there, sternguard advance when running out of targets.

 

The other units either have deep strike (inceptors, reivers, assault squads) or are mobile enough on their own (biker scouts/captain).

[Claws and Effect]

I like my Vanguard. Sure, they're one trick ponies, but you gotta admit it's a pretty good trick.

 

I've evolved my tactics with them a bit. Now I try to put them somewhere they have more than one charge option. That way if I don't go first and my opponent pulls my preferred target back I can still charge something. And if they pull ALL the potential targets back it is still a win because I made them put their units farther from mine with just the threat of a first turn charge.

 

I like to play psychological warfare as a game within the game. Sort of a "what can I goad my opponent into doing that he might not want to?"

[Race Bannon]

Since I play to the opposing army, then I use whatever I think would work on a per-game basis.  This allows me to rotate some units in my (budding) collection.  I mean, there are a few staples (ex: Tactical Marines because I'm old-school like) that and some I prefer to use above others, but nothing is set in stone.

 

Jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better, than a master of one ^_^

[9x19 Parabellum]

Huh. So, just to be clear, it sounds like what I'm hearing is that you guys generally don't specifically build a list around our chapter tactic?

[MajorNese]

Only "specific" aspect is the mentioned vehicle reduction. Non-vehicles become more resilient, single vehicles are easy targets.

 

Except for that, we have probably the most flexible chapter tactic of all. The only time we give up the bonus is below 12". Ranged units want to stay above that anyway (to be out of enemy weapon range), and CC units want the enemy closer than 12". Everyone profits, but some specializations (like BA-grade CC) can't be achieved.

 

SftS is often used as vanguard one-trick pony, but allows us to use a lot of units that would otherwise lack mobility, or have to pay a lot of points for transports. Agressors in range turn one, grav cannons set up in range turn one, sternguard in rapid fire range, and so on. Meaning, our "specific" build when including the CT is less specific than a non-CT build, because more units are viable.

[Race Bannon]

Well said :tu:

[Dracos]

Agreed. I would use my same basic battle plan if Chapter Tactica and Stratagems exist or not.

 

The only “tailoring” per se for me are the Aggressors. Pre-Primaris they would have been Deep Striking Terminators. Raven Guard abilities just happen to suit this old counter puncher like an old glove. ;)

[Cordova]

For me, I have always relied on MSU to help me out - everything has redundancies so the opponent needs to either shoot all of the MSU options or face them.  Rather than one big 10 man VV squad, I have two 5 man. Sure, easier to kill, but means two targets and usually two units need to do that shooting.

 

Plus, whilst StfS is a great trick for first turn assault etc, I think that in reality it just gives us more deployment options than other SM players, which we can use to our advantage.  Put scouts down first, then StfS things into positions they couldn't usually  reach.  That's my balance - throw the opponent out of whack from the get go and force them to react to you, not the other way around.

[duz_]

Huh. So, just to be clear, it sounds like what I'm hearing is that you guys generally don't specifically build a list around our chapter tactic?

 

 

Yup!

As the others have already put my army construction priorities generally go

1. What I like
2. Cover my TAC bases / Rule of cool
3. CT bonuses
4. Stratagems 

 

Although it does help that when I started building my army I focused on "light" mobile infantry and lighting assaults so I tended to avoid vehicles, other than flyer support.

 

Certainly on the surface our CT would let you believe a gunline is the obvious choice. Although with StfS and the general diversity of SM's in general there are plenty of ways to use RG :D

[9x19 Parabellum]

Yeah I've been trying to specifically push myself in a direction now that goes against gun-lining our chapter tactic. Hence, my recent purchase was Aggressors and I ordered a Whirlwind to try out the Datalink Telemetry stratagem.  But really I want to get more mobile/assualt elements for my RG force.

[duz_]

Inceptors of both kinds are also great

 

Assault marines still seem lack luster this edition, but I am yet to use them. Although you need to acknowledge that Assault is a misnomer. They are cheap quick objective grabbers and chaff harassers, particularly with dual flamers. Keep them cheap.

 

VV's are fun, but expensive and require some kinda re-roll support. I'm starting to think 7 is the ideal number in a squad.

 

[ShinyRhino]

I regularly run twenty Assault Marines in my lists. They'd be more accurately described as Counter Assault Marines or Board Control Marines.

They're not a spearhead unit, like the fluff would indicate. They're better used parked behind your gun line and then hopping over to charge an incoming unit or just being a fence/wall.

I do find them great for denying deep strike though. You can spread them out to control the 9" bubble, and after the threat has passed they are fast enough to reposition to more useful areas.

 

In theory you could take five man squads as plasma pistol bombs, but it doesn't seem efficient.

[MajorNese]

I regularly run twenty Assault Marines in my lists. They'd be more accurately described as Counter Assault Marines or Board Control Marines.

For the board control role, I prefer primaris. The bog standard intercessors are cheap, have 2W, and a 2+ save in cover. Add the -1 to hit, and chaff fire won't scratch them. I tend to just run them around the midfield, grabbing objectives, and (with 2A and 2W) take on other cheap objective grabbers despite smaller model count. Bolters are not bad, and almost always in range. Unless really heavy firepower gets wasted on them, they tend to stick around. For backfield areas, deep striking reivers could do the same.

[Race Bannon]

ShineyRhino presents tactics for old-school players with previous investment on models that do not get much traction in this edition.

 

In my opinion ^_^

[ShinyRhino]

That pretty much sums me up, Race. The only Primaris model I've bought so far is the Store Birthday Captain.

The plight of the penniless gamer sitting on piles of old plastic. You've got to make the stuff you have work as best it can for you.

Edited March 18, 2018 by ShinyRhino

[Race Bannon]

:lol: which is me as well. Thank you for the post because such units still have a place in armies of today. :tu:

[Dracos]

Pfft Old school rocks. If I wasn’t so set on Primaris, I’d defineitly be converting Rhinos to Razorbacks (Kromlech bits from Noble Knight FTW). Even without my just Rhinos though I’d still build a strategy around loading up some Vets and hitting them where it hurts the most ;)