In the grim darkness of the far future... [Controversial]

[Tarvek Val]

 

 

hardly goes into his writing with the intent to "stack powers and feats up"

 

... And I stated my opinion that he does not make an effort to make exceptional characters. Unlike some people, whose name may or may not be Matt Ward, who make their protagonists, who may or may not be Ultramarines, the most ludicrously Mary Sue-esque characters in the known universe.

 

I am not seeking to dismiss anyone's opinions. Everyone is free to think whatever they wish; if you think the moon is made of cheese or the Earth is flat, more power to you.

 

And again, I am not looking to be drawn into a debate on this. I stated my humble opinion, and will leave it at that.

[MrDarth151]

 

... And I stated my opinion that he does not make an effort to make exceptional characters. Unlike some people, whose name may or may not be Matt Ward, who make their protagonists, who may or may not be Ultramarines, the most ludicrously Mary Sue-esque characters in the known universe.

 

I do not make guesses about his intention, but I will say that they come off as such. It's the little things that sometimes annoy me.

 

At any rate, I really care not about to such a degree that I want to continue this discussion. Keep your opinion, and I will keep mine.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I would argue that ADB hardly goes into his writing with the intent to "stack powers and feats up" on his characters. His characters have depth and are cleverly written as more than just "guys with big muscles and guns".

 

And have I criticised that, or have I criticised their exceptionalism?

 

Or is this another case of people not knowing what I'm talking about, and making the most far reaching assumptions just to dismiss my opinions flat out?

 

 

And yet you've yet to distinguish how this is different in any way from what any other character is written as in any other series. Argel Tal? Exceptional. Honsou? Exceptional. Ciaphas Cain? Eisenhorn? Harry Potter? Bilbo/Frodo? Literally any superhero? Beowulf? Hell, let's bring it right back to the earliest story we have, Gilgamesh. All "conflicted, exceptional characters" Most of those listed have supporting characters too. It's like criticising a story because it follows the Hero's Journey. 

 

Again, you're criticising AD-B for following a pattern that 90% of stories do. Criticising the way he does it, that I could buy. But criticising him for having conflicted, exceptional characters with supporting characters is a trope that can be applied to most fiction in existence.

[Marshal Rohr]

That Luke Skywalker is a real piece of work, huh? That female sidekick? What was that about? Don’t even get me started on that swashbuckling best friend and older mentor in the esoteric religious order with supernatural abilities.

[bluntblade]

I'm really struggling to think of any BL lead character who isn't exceptional in some way except maybe Rhodaan of the Iron Warriors. Wait, nope, he's the most loyal of that company and has a jetbike with neat daemonic wings.

 

Loken, Sigismund, Meduson, Ahriman, Shiban Khan, Torghun, Yesugei, Bjorn, etc are all exceptional within the groups they belong to in one way or another, and all get an impressive feat sooner or later.

[Enosh]

I would argue that ADB hardly goes into his writing with the intent to "stack powers and feats up" on his characters. His characters have depth and are cleverly written as more than just "guys with big muscles and guns".

idk, sure as hell felt that way to me with Khayon, I'm used to some level of "suenes" (for a lack of a better term) in 40k protagonist, it's the nature of the setting, but Khayon was off the charts

[TheRealMcCagh]

Black Legion grounded Khayon pretty hard, in my opinion. That duel with the Iron Warrior he did manage to win, at the cost of his arm, but remember what Daravek does after that? Commands him forward, makes him kneel and forces him to apologise in front of all his colleagues. He is so humiliated that Telemachon doesn't even want to stand near him for fear of being associated. Khayon doesn't have a whole lot of 'wins' in Black Legion. And at the end of the day, the whole series is coming from his point of view sitting in an Imperial cell with his eyes cut out. Not your typical fairy tale ending.

 

I can't really think of many 'Mary Sues' in the HH, since it seems like everyone loses. Sharrowkyn cuts it pretty close though, in my opinion. Angel Exterminatius was great, but some of Nykona's parts just had me roll my eyes

Edited March 21, 2018 by TheRealMcCagh

[Lord_Caerolion]

Sharrowkyn is definitely Mary Sue. He's single-handedly developed silent power armour, a jump-pack to go with it, and submits Lucius even further to the Worf Effect, as apparently he's no longer the best swordsman in the Legions, but rather a whipping-boy for whatever new character gets introduced. Sharrowkyn's flaws? Doesn't really have them. He's just an Awesome Space Ninja.

[TheRealMcCagh]

Lucius has been painted into a corner. He is supposed to be a peerless swordsmen (or at least thinks he is), but the only way to make use of his 'gift' is have him lose. If he runs around killing all these champions, his quirk never comes into play, so why eve use Lucius when he could just be some random dude. If they want to make use of what makes Lucius unique, he has to lose the duels, which tells us he's a loser. They could try and spin it in a way that Lucius fights until he is bored, then allows himself to die for grins (gets off on the body take over), but then he's catapulted into the Mary Sue catagory. I honestly don't know how Lucius can be made interesting any more. I did like him in the opening trilogy though.

[Withershadow]

They could follow the Manji angle about how his invulnerability is making him sloppy, and they would have to tear it away from him to make him take things seriously again.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Personally, I want 40k Lucius to be done as literally going insane, as he's had 10,000 years to become bored with basically everything, and he's even died countless times now, so the one final sensation that Slaaneshi worshippers can have is even lost to him. He should be absolutely desperate to experience absolutely anything he hasn't felt countless times before, just something new.

[TheRealMcCagh]

I can imagine Lucius charging head long into a Land Raider, 'I've never been hit by twin linked Las Cannons before!''Stab me with that auspex real quick. Looks blunt as hell.'

[bluntblade]

Black Legion grounded Khayon pretty hard, in my opinion. That duel with the Iron Warrior he did manage to win, at the cost of his arm, but remember what Daravek does after that? Commands him forward, makes him kneel and forces him to apologise in front of all his colleagues. He is so humiliated that Telemachon doesn't even want to stand near him for fear of being associated. Khayon doesn't have a whole lot of 'wins' in Black Legion. And at the end of the day, the whole series is coming from his point of view sitting in an Imperial cell with his eyes cut out. Not your typical fairy tale ending.

I can't really think of many 'Mary Sues' in the HH, since it seems like everyone loses. Sharrowkyn cuts it pretty close though, in my opinion. Angel Exterminatius was great, but some of Nykona's parts just had me roll my eyes

You forgot that Lheor also cuts off his grumbling with a "how important do you really think you are?" Khayon hasn't been commanding forces on the level that his fellows in the Ezekarion were.

[Indefragable]

Personally, I want 40k Lucius to be done as literally going insane, as he's had 10,000 years to become bored with basically everything, and he's even died countless times now, so the one final sensation that Slaaneshi worshippers can have is even lost to him. He should be absolutely desperate to experience absolutely anything he hasn't felt countless times before, just something new.

 

"Duel a Primarch? Been there done that. Take on 17,000 Custodes at once? BORING. Have my own heart ripped out in front of me? So 2 weeks ago. But wait...there's a new flavor slurpee at the convenient store? I MUST try it!"

[Enosh]

 

Black Legion grounded Khayon pretty hard, in my opinion. That duel with the Iron Warrior he did manage to win, at the cost of his arm, but remember what Daravek does after that? Commands him forward, makes him kneel and forces him to apologise in front of all his colleagues. He is so humiliated that Telemachon doesn't even want to stand near him for fear of being associated. Khayon doesn't have a whole lot of 'wins' in Black Legion. And at the end of the day, the whole series is coming from his point of view sitting in an Imperial cell with his eyes cut out. Not your typical fairy tale ending.

I can't really think of many 'Mary Sues' in the HH, since it seems like everyone loses. Sharrowkyn cuts it pretty close though, in my opinion. Angel Exterminatius was great, but some of Nykona's parts just had me roll my eyes

You forgot that Lheor also cuts off his grumbling with a "how important do you really think you are?" Khayon hasn't been commanding forces on the level that his fellows in the Ezekarion were.

 

because he's too busy being the Black Legions assassin, he gets his own followers and warband latter given all the talk about the feud and mini war between him and Telemachon

[bluntblade]

True enough. My point is that Khayon is just one of several VIPs under Abaddon.

[A D-B]

I try to approach this generously, but I can't help but think anyone thinking Khayon is "Mary Sue"-ish is either operating from misconceptions about the setting, or just not thinking things through clearly. (Although let's not rule out unclear writing. Heh.)

 

I mean, yes, he makes Magnus kneel... somehow. How do you really think that will happen, though? There's literally no way he can just out-cast Magnus the Red, so it's obviously not that. So people using this as an example of him being overpowered always sort of surprise me, since... I mean, being a Daemon Primarch isn't good thing. It's not a promotion. The Path to Glory doesn't actually end in Glory... I mean, people understand that, by and large. They don't in the setting, but readers usually do. No one can say with a straight face that Chaos characters are completely right and aren't massively deluded. Khayon included. (Khayon arguably more than most; several characters spend significant time telling him he's deluded about X and Y, even as he's telling them they're deluded about A and B.)

 

Daemon Primarchs are the Genie in Aladdin: "PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER... itty bitty living space." It comes with huge drawbacks-- That's why it's a tragedy, it's why their stories are deceptions and tragedies. By the time they realise what they've walked into, it's too late. It's why Chaos needs mortal champions. It's why Abaddon is Warmaster of Chaos. So it's not a case of "But primarchs are the bestest" and that's that. They have staggeringly vast spiritual and metaphysical weaknesses, because becoming a Daemon Prince doesn't just mean you get better at everything, The End. And, well, to even wonder how one might humiliate a primarch is to forget the vaaaaassssst resources the Black Legion commands compared to the other Legions. Sometimes I get confused as to why the question is "How does Abaddon/Khayon/the Black Legion do X?" Well, because they can. They can, and no one else could. That's the point. Not because "ADB wants them to be the best." I couldn't care less who's "the best". It's just because this is who they are and what they do.

 

But Khayon, specifically:

 

Firstly, yes, he's one of the most powerful Chaos Space Marines in the setting. That's not because I sat there and thought "Oh, I'll make him great because lol." It's because, well, that's what one of the most powerful warlords in the most powerful Legion would be. If he was anything but that, it wouldn't be true to the setting or a character in that role. He has armies... just like every Black Legion warlord, except his are significantly smaller than most others. He's a pre-eminent sorcerer, because Abaddon famously has some of the most powerful sorcerers serving him, and it's alluded that Khayon may or may not be one of those famous ones operating under his own name instead.

 

Secondly, he never really achieves anything that isn't comparable to other characters in his position-- and often significantly less. What he achieves at the end of Talon for example, with sorcery and a warship, could have been done with a tractor beam or... heck, just a ship with its engines on, on a suicide run. Instead, Khayon does it to get a finer sense of control on the situation, and to do so, he can't move for half a year, has to be guarded at all times, has to be fed and given water like an invalid... and is weak for months afterwards. Look at a lot of the world-breaking sorcery unleashed by famous Chaos Marine sorcerers elsewhere, and you're honestly telling me that it's a big deal he guides an empty spaceship around for a while, at the cost of being an invalid for six months? That's a pretty massive downside. If that strikes you as impossible or unrealistically powerful-- especially in the Eye of Terror-- the issue isn't the event itself, it's, well, your perception of the setting. Is it a big deal? Yeah, kinda? But that's the point. These are the warlords of the Black Legion, foreseen by Abaddon as the potential future leaders of the Black Crusades. Even as Abaddon's assassin, look how many times he fails with Daravek due to... certain circumstances. Look at the effort and meticulous preparation that goes into his assassination attempt. He doesn't waltz into the palace and start lol-killing everyone because he's such a badass. He spends a year infiltrating minds slowly, inch by inch, and so on. He despises prophecy, which bites him the butt several times. He certainly can't predict what happens to Ahsur-Kai, when Ashur-Kai clicks almost at once. He loses ground against Moriana, who is one of Abaddon's faves. It goes on and on.

 

Thirdly, the fact he has esoteric bodyguards and a powerful weapon isn't a massive deal. It's not unique to him. It's not "I am the only one with these weird slaves." It's 'This is an example of the kinds of weird slaves Chaos Warlords have'. Khayon downplays Nefertari and co. consistently, citing how she'd last half a second on the battlefield, and how other Chaos big cheeses have equally weird champions. There was cool stuff in Ye Olde Lore about warbands having really wacky champions, and Khayon is just one example of that. (Telemachon and Vortigern are obviously hands-on and do it themselves, but I'm really looking forward to showing Amurael's warband champion in the next novel. Amurael has a very weird but understandable one, based on some old lore chats.)

 

Fourthly, look at what Khayon is actually good at, sorcery-wise. He's a daemonologist. That's his expertise. Something practically unseen pre-Heresy, but increasingly common in the Legions post-Heresy during their exile in the Eye. In many ways, that makes him the archetypal Chaos Sorcerer-- not a D&D mage in his own right, throwing fireballs on Ahriman's level, but a summoner par excellence. That's his speciality. He's good at other stuff too, but that's his speciality. So of course there's a lot of detail about the daemons he binds, and of course they're powerful. 

 

I'm not saying these guys aren't big deals and don't do some serious stuff. They are, and they do. If they didn't, it would be laughable-- These are the characters leading the largest Chaos Legion and at the vanguard of the biggest incursions into the Imperium. That's the point. But this is one of those cases where it's not a particularly well considered criticism (which the words "Mary Sue" are often a great indicator of anyway) to say Khayon is overpowered, or whatever. Like... Think it through, honestly. Half the time I'm worried he's not massacring whole planets and turning them into Daemon Worlds, which is what a lot of these kinds of characters would actually be doing on their levels of power and influence.

Edited March 21, 2018 by A D-B

[bluntblade]

And even as he argues, he tickles our pauldrons with hints about the next Black Legion book.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That's the part that differentiates Khayon from being a Mary Sue, is that what he does has an actual cost. For a Mary Sue, their powers are either completely effortless and without downside, or it's something completely trivial that doesn't affect them in any meaningful way.

Khayon destroyed the fortress by throwing a ship, sure, but as mentioned, he was basically comatose in the leadup to that, and almost crippled by the effort. You've then got the costs of his daemon-summoning, both in the examples of the Ragged Knight almost turning on him, putting him in extreme danger, and the fact that his summoned daemons can act as a sympathetic link to him for any of his foes, as shown in Black Legion.

 

He can't just do what he wants and steam-roll over everyone in his way, flipping them off as he goes. Psychic ability is an incredibly risky ability in 40k, even more so in the Eye, and incredibly more so when you're dealing directly with daemons. We've already seen Khayon experience consequences twice now in two books, and I can't see things particularly getting easier for him from here on out. He's powerful, but when it comes to Psykers, being more powerful also means you've got more daemons wanting to use your head as a doorway, and that you'll create a bigger boom if you do screw up.

[Fire Golem]

And even as he argues, he tickles our pauldrons with hints about the next Black Legion book.

Right? AD-B, always a tease.

[MrDarth151]

And yet you've yet to distinguish how this is different in any way from what any other character is written as in any other series.

 

That's because I've learned something about this board quite a while ago: Putting actual effort towards negative critique of things that are praised on this board is a waste of time.

 

It's really not that hard: There are certain opinions that are firmly entrenched here. People are already convinced that I have bizarre vendetta against ADB. Spending a day writing an elaborate response that will get dismissed flat out regardless of what arguments I will make strikes me as counter-productive. So really, what would be the point? I can spend my limited amount of free time on something more productive.

 

As far as I am concerned, there is nothing worth discussing here regarding the subject. It was stupid of me to think otherwise.

Edited March 22, 2018 by MrDarth151

[TheRealMcCagh]

Do we know what happened to Nefertari and Khayon? In my head she died and he brought her soul back, sort of making her bound to him like one of his demons, but not exactly. But I also feel like this has been explained to us at some point. Is it actually more vague than that, and my head canon is leaking?

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

And yet you've yet to distinguish how this is different in any way from what any other character is written as in any other series.

 

That's because I've learned something about this board quite a while ago: Putting actual effort towards negative critique of things that are praised on this board is a waste of time.

 

It's really not that hard: There are certain opinions that are firmly entrenched here. People are already convinced that I have bizarre vendetta against ADB. Spending a day writing an elaborate response that will get dismissed flat out regardless of what arguments I will make strikes me as counter-productive. So really, what would be the point? I can spend my limited amount of free time on something more productive.

 

As far as I am concerned, there is nothing worth discussing here regarding the subject. It was stupid of me to think otherwise.

 

 

Back up your point then. Your argument, in its entirety, was "ABD's habit of writing protagonist as in some way special rubs me the wrong way", and that "ADBs novels follow largely similar pattern: There is a Space Marine protagonist who is conflicted, yet highly exceptional, there is one/two major supporting characters, humans, who interact with the Marine protagonist to varying degree and so on, and so forth.". Literally every protagonist ever is "in some way special", otherwise they're a boring character. Don't throw out points so vague that they apply to almost every character ever written, then get upset when people question it.

[A D-B]

 

And even as he argues, he tickles our pauldrons with hints about the next Black Legion book.

Right? AD-B, always a tease.

 

That wasn't my intention, for the record-- and I'll say no more on this after this post-- but after various chats with peeps behind the curtain, I'm pretty certain the third book will be happening, now. That should hopefully dispel a bit of the accidental teasing.

 

(Okay, I'm going now. PEACE.)

[Marshal Loss]

Yesssss. Good, good. Good. Excellent. Good. I can rest easy (well, significantly easier) now.