When NOT to alpha strike

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Paladins are fine, but their biggest issue is their slowness (it's a general TDA problem actually) and they're entirely reliant on melee to do work. I've stopped using mine entirely because they don't accomplish much in a typical game.

 

I've been tossing up running double Battalion and just starting some of the Strikes on table. They're gonna die either way, but 105 points for 5 dudes isn't amazingly expensive. Currently I use Purgators for a backfield drop to deny landing zones, and they've been working fine. However they are kinda inefficient and slow. I often feel like more Strikes would do most of the same job, be cheaper and count towards another Battalion. The biggest obstacle is the two additional HQ's we need, which is really points hungry (none of them are below 130 points except for Brotherhood Champion, who doesn't do anything).

 

I've also been considering doing house rules to get around some of the dumber aspects of Matched Play. I personally have no issue with null deploy for other armies, and for GK it's our entire playstyle. However, acceptance of ignoring Matched Play restrictions is difficult because they're core rules. I am also trying to figure out the alternative to 'Psychic Focus' as well. 

 

Until GW decides to let us play the army as intended, we need on table drops. That means Allies or taking subpar stuff to fill out DZ with (or wasting Teleport Strike on Strikes). Razorbacks could work potentially, but I need to playtest that (also they don't add any additional Command Points, which is another of our glaring issues, we typically run out Turn 1/2).

[Corvus Fortis]

I've also been considering doing house rules to get around some of the dumber aspects of Matched Play. I personally have no issue with null deploy for other armies, and for GK it's our entire playstyle. However, acceptance of ignoring Matched Play restrictions is difficult because they're core rules. I am also trying to figure out the alternative to 'Psychic Focus' as well. 

 

 

Or you can simply play Open. GK can really break game with some combination there. But if you are homeruling anyway, why bother with restrictions?

 

And I rarely have problems with Reserve slots. Ravens, Dreads, Rhinos and Razorbacks resolve them fine. Also one unit can Gate to the line. I played only one game with Razorbacks so far and what I learned - they really need rerolls. Don't underestimate Rhinos too. They can carry 10 strikes\interceptors and can be Gated and use Smoke Launchers then. This is almost 100% charge turn 2. If Rhino survives, it can 'tankshock' enemy shooting units for the whole game. I peresonaly seen one shutting down a leman russ for 3 turns. And with only 72 points it is the cheapest our unit after servitors. 

[Gentlemanloser]

In Open I'd run nothing but Apothecaries with Vortex/Purge Soul.

 

 

Edit: Hammer 'Pothecaries.  Natch.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Helycon]

 

 

Because they are almost as easy to kill (that +1 to armour isn't a major factor), more expensive and can't deny DS.

1) If +1 save is not a major factor, Sanctuary is taken suprisingly often;

2)I pointed that it is for the same points;

3) they can deny DS, but GK do not need it nearly as much as other armies.

 

Taking another strike is 2/4 more SB shots, 1 more attack and more possibilities to survive with single model, that can either bring another mortal wound or gate away to secure objective. Scouts are questionable addition to a GK force.

So our game plan is completely dependent on going first

 

This.

Except an invulnerable cannot be modified by weapons, making a +1 matter a lot more. Scouts can be forward deployed in cover to gain the exact same save (and better if you decide to spare points for camo cloaks) as PAGK.

For the same points as a squad of PAGK, you almost have double the amount of scouts, meaning the same amount of shots on bolters and twice the wounds, with a larger footprint.

 

Denying a DS very much depends on the army you're facing, sure. Scouts are one of the best options for a cheap Adeptus Astartes Batallion though, they're incredibly efficient.

[Corvus Fortis]

Strikes can be put in cover in exactly same way. It is important to deny large areas only for heavy gunline lists, while GK rarely take more than 3 razors\vendreads. Again AM will do better here. Scouts won't have rerolls and can't gate to their targets. 

 

A matter of taste, I guess. but I'd never take scouts just for area denial or CP. 

[Ninjoe42]

 

 

Because they are almost as easy to kill (that +1 to armour isn't a major factor), more expensive and can't deny DS.

1) If +1 save is not a major factor, Sanctuary is taken suprisingly often;

2)I pointed that it is for the same points;

3) they can deny DS, but GK do not need it nearly as much as other armies.

 

Taking another strike is 2/4 more SB shots, 1 more attack and more possibilities to survive with single model, that can either bring another mortal wound or gate away to secure objective. Scouts are questionable addition to a GK force.

So our game plan is completely dependent on going first

 

This.

Since who goes first is determined by a die roll, surely you can see the problem with trying to run your army that way?

 

Reminds me of old MtG tournament decks where they just checked to see who went first and the other player immediately conceded

[Capt. Mytre]

Strikes can be put in cover in exactly same way. It is important to deny large areas only for heavy gunline lists, while GK rarely take more than 3 razors\vendreads. Again AM will do better here. Scouts won't have rerolls and can't gate to their targets. 

 

A matter of taste, I guess. but I'd never take scouts just for area denial or CP. 

 

You can't scout any of those options, that's the key reason for taking scouts. The whole idea is to deny enemy DS, thus securing ours. It's undeniable that scouts are one of the better options for this, given their deployment happens before almost all other units. Sure they aren't as efficient for cheap CP gain as IG, but they also provide cheap CP gain as well as being decent DS denial and hold objectives for you that you wouldn't otherwise have units for with a GK army.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Capt. Mytre

[Gentlemanloser]

Die roll to go first is only for CA missions. And gives horde armies even more of an advantage.

 

Plus most of the CA missions are broken in some fashion.

 

Normal missions, no die roll.

[Corvus Fortis]

Since who goes first is determined by a die roll, surely you can see the problem with trying to run your army that way?

 

Reminds me of old MtG tournament decks where they just checked to see who went first and the other player immediately conceded 

 

 

Again, we GK not have other way. No matter how poor and unreliable t1 alphastrike, other ways are worse. Unless you play something that wants to get to you.

 

 

Die roll to go first is only for CA missions. And gives horde armies even more of an advantage.

 

Plus most of the CA missions are broken in some fashion.

 

Normal missions, no die roll.

 

Unfortunately, our tournament organizers liked (or misread first three published CA rules) the idea so much that added first turn roll to all missions.

 

Back when before CA I easily got first turn because low unit count. That was a benifit for elite armies that helped a bit. I could make a first strike and kill something hurty before getting teared apart by laspreds, reapers, etc. But, I guess, gulliman-lovers whined that in their games with tons of lascannons always wins the one who gets the first turn. And as a result GK got nerfed. As always.

[Gentlemanloser]

And That's why i don't tourny. ;)

 

Plus my painting sucks and I've got loads unpainted... :(

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Or you can simply play Open. GK can really break game with some combination there. But if you are homeruling anyway, why bother with restrictions?

 

Open Play and Narrative Play are ignored by the entire community. I'd simply never get games. Also I personally have no interest in them.

And I rarely have problems with Reserve slots. Ravens, Dreads, Rhinos and Razorbacks resolve them fine. Also one unit can Gate to the line. I played only one game with Razorbacks so far and what I learned - they really need rerolls. Don't underestimate Rhinos too. They can carry 10 strikes\interceptors and can be Gated and use Smoke Launchers then. This is almost 100% charge turn 2. If Rhino survives, it can 'tankshock' enemy shooting units for the whole game. I peresonaly seen one shutting down a leman russ for 3 turns. And with only 72 points it is the cheapest our unit after servitors. 

 

All that costs points, which we simply don't have. Also, Rhinos/Razorbacks die quite easily to enemy anti-tank. Turn 2 charges won't happen because they will de-mech you Turn 1 (any army that can't dismantle Rhinos at range is bad). If you even make it into a Guard tank line, they are simply a terrible player and deserve the loss. Allies offer cheaper drops and more Command Points, which is another thing all those points sunk in vehicles doesn't do.

 

Razorbacks biggest issue IMO (besides cost, which is stupid high) is they hit on 4's if you move. It's something I'm considering for my house rules, granting Relentless back to all the platforms that had it in 7th (namely vehicles and monsters keyword). With the amount of -1 to hit in the game, it's hardly backbreaking to allow those platforms to work properly. I'm still considering what to do for Russes and Machine Spirit Marine vehicles (might let them +1 to hit, LR's need a buff anyway they're pure garbage). 

Except an invulnerable cannot be modified by weapons, making a +1 matter a lot more. Scouts can be forward deployed in cover to gain the exact same save (and better if you decide to spare points for camo cloaks) as PAGK. 

For the same points as a squad of PAGK, you almost have double the amount of scouts, meaning the same amount of shots on bolters and twice the wounds, with a larger footprint.

 

Denying a DS very much depends on the army you're facing, sure. Scouts are one of the best options for a cheap Adeptus Astartes Batallion though, they're incredibly efficient.

 

Yeah it's something I've considered. I'm probably gonna do a Patrol though, as I have written off 'Psychic Onslaught' and 'Psybolt Ammo' as useable, so Command Points don't matter as much for me. I only really want the TDA Librarian for 'Null Zone' (GK fall apart against decent invul saves), everything else is gravy.

 

Rolling off for first turn is fine by me. I actually found the 'cheese your drops so you go first' dumb. +1 to the roll is fine, as GK you will usually get the bonus anyway (my army is 10 drops, not many lists go that low). The real kicker is that only half our army can be Teleport Striking in. If they removed that restriction, we'd work a lot better.

[Gentlemanloser]

The smaller army goes first is to stop you facing something like the old Guard leafblower where they field a gazillion tanks, go first, and wipe you off the board.

 

Random rolls for first turn (as first turn is *so* powerful in 8th) is simply another boost in favour of Horde armies at the expense of Elite.

 

And should be (like open and Narrative play) ignored by the community.

 

Number of deployments is a strategic choice.  It also gives a small boost to Transports, allowing you to get more bang for your deployment buck so to speak.

[Corvus Fortis]

All that costs points, which we simply don't have. Also, Rhinos/Razorbacks die quite easily to enemy anti-tank. Turn 2 charges won't happen because they will de-mech you Turn 1 (any army that can't dismantle Rhinos at range is bad). If you even make it into a Guard tank line, they are simply a terrible player and deserve the loss. Allies offer cheaper drops and more Command Points, which is another thing all those points sunk in vehicles doesn't do.

 

 

If you have 70-80 points left, you have either redo the list completely, take some more strikes/interceptors or take a Rhino. Turn 1 I hide a Rhino behind LoS or out of range, gate it and use smoke launchers. It will take two lascannons minimum to be taken down and if they both hit, wound, no save 5-5 or 4-6 for damage. So to kill it reliably, opponent will have to redrect fire of a whole 5 man devsquad or a predator. This means less threat for GMNDK or Raven. Even if it dies, strikes are still there. You will probably lose a point or two, but they will be in close combat turn 2 anyway. 

 

Razorbacks biggest issue IMO (besides cost, which is stupid high) is they hit on 4's if you move. It's something I'm considering for my house rules, granting Relentless back to all the platforms that had it in 7th (namely vehicles and monsters keyword). With the amount of -1 to hit in the game, it's hardly backbreaking to allow those platforms to work properly. I'm still considering what to do for Russes and Machine Spirit Marine vehicles (might let them +1 to hit, LR's need a buff anyway they're pure garbage). 

 

 

Since Twin Autocannons are almost as expensive as Lascannons, Razrobacks are no more viable as transports. But Lascannon razorbacks are still decent part of gunlines. There is no need for them to move. The only problem with GK gunlines is lack of rerolls. Characters want to be in the front-line. If GK had enough command points, Wisdom of Ancient would be an alternative. Also, without allies, our gunlines extra vulnerable to melta-drops. But still they provide decent anti-vehicle support and can help kill threath to GMNDKs. A strike squad or interceptor squad could be hidden in a razorback too which means less deploy choices and more protection.

[Gentlemanloser]

Wisdom would be ok, but our best Dreads (Doomglaives) also don't want to gunline.  I'm still not a fan of 'Hellfire' shooty Dreads.

[STTAB]

Originally I tried to build a pure GK army. And I couldn't find solutions to a lot of threats or the versatility and mobility I was wanting.

 

Allies are needed.

 

Definitely scouts or similar infiltrating units for mid board position holding.

 

Drops that can survive and absorb a lot of punishment if you go second and then output some decent firepower to devaste some screening. Dark angels have some good options with darksroud or Azrael for protection. Iron hands and raven guard are worth a look and each have a very useful stratagem. AdMech give plenty protection and firepower too.

 

Allies will also give you access to high strength/low AP shooting the GK are lacking.

 

Still an advocate of GW doing a monobuild bonus. Untill then I've got my Dark angels almost finished.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Paladins are fine, but their biggest issue is their slowness (it's a general TDA problem actually) and they're entirely reliant on melee to do work. I've stopped using mine entirely because they don't accomplish much in a typical game.

 

I've also been considering doing house rules to get around some of the dumber aspects of Matched Play. I personally have no issue with null deploy for other armies, and for GK it's our entire playstyle. However, acceptance of ignoring Matched Play restrictions is difficult because they're core rules. I am also trying to figure out the alternative to 'Psychic Focus' as well. 

 

Have you thought about house testing multiple casts for the Sanctic Discipline? Multiple casts for say Hammerhand /Sanctuary /GoI makes so much more sense for GKs than smite spam. It's more strategic too imo, as it mitigates half of our prominent weaknesses i.e.as you mentioned - lack of speed, and lack of durability. I'd happily keep our baby smite if we get to use OUR own unique Sanctic Discipline to full and proper affect (with adding 1 to casting requirement for every re-cast attempt). 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The smaller army goes first is to stop you facing something like the old Guard leafblower where they field a gazillion tanks, go first, and wipe you off the board.

 

Random rolls for first turn (as first turn is *so* powerful in 8th) is simply another boost in favour of Horde armies at the expense of Elite.

 

And should be (like open and Narrative play) ignored by the community.

 

Number of deployments is a strategic choice.  It also gives a small boost to Transports, allowing you to get more bang for your deployment buck so to speak.

 

Agreed about first turn being clutch. Especially if you whiff it, it pretty much overshadows the rest of the game.

 

Like I said, for now I'm playing 'as is' 40k. But once all the armies come out and we've been through another FAQ cycle, I am strongly considering house rules to tweak the core rules. 

If you have 70-80 points left, you have either redo the list completely, take some more strikes/interceptors or take a Rhino. Turn 1 I hide a Rhino behind LoS or out of range, gate it and use smoke launchers. It will take two lascannons minimum to be taken down and if they both hit, wound, no save 5-5 or 4-6 for damage. So to kill it reliably, opponent will have to redrect fire of a whole 5 man devsquad or a predator. This means less threat for GMNDK or Raven. Even if it dies, strikes are still there. You will probably lose a point or two, but they will be in close combat turn 2 anyway.

 

When do I have 80 points spare in the most expensive army in the game, barring Custodes? Assuming you aren't taking total jank, bare minimum you're looking at 800 points for a core Battalion (double GMDK and three Strikes squads, one of which you probably want to run 10-man to use 'Psybolt' on). After that, sprinkle in the near-mandatory Venerable Dreads for fire support, some Purgators...and I'm out of points.

 

Rhinos are garbage, no Marine player uses them. Same for Razorbacks post-FAQ nerf. Same for drop pods, which are actually substantially better than both but are still overpriced. Point costs matter. I'm not wasting points on garbage that dies Turn 1 with no effect.

Since Twin Autocannons are almost as expensive as Lascannons, Razrobacks are no more viable as transports. But Lascannon razorbacks are still decent part of gunlines. There is no need for them to move. The only problem with GK gunlines is lack of rerolls. Characters want to be in the front-line. If GK had enough command points, Wisdom of Ancient would be an alternative. Also, without allies, our gunlines extra vulnerable to melta-drops. But still they provide decent anti-vehicle support and can help kill threath to GMNDKs. A strike squad or interceptor squad could be hidden in a razorback too which means less deploy choices and more protection.

 

'Wisdom' is okay maybe Turn 1, but yeah normally I'm out of Command Points by bottom of Turn 1. 

 

Razorback can't 'Astral Aim', and if you have to reposition to get Line of Sight or you're shooting -1 to hit targets, they quickly drop off in effectiveness. Venerables still hit on 3's in those situations, and they're pumping out a krak missile as well for about a third more. I'd never take las Razors at their current price. I actually think Venerables are overcosted anyway, but they're just reliable anti-tank we can't get elsewhere.

Allies will also give you access to high strength/low AP shooting the GK are lacking.

 

I have been considering Scions, however it is a little tricky because they also want to drop in Turn 1 from Reserve. So you'd probably need to spend points on some Taurox or other Guard stuff to be on-table drops. I have been on the receiving end of the suicide melta/plasma and Prime combo, it's brutal.

Have you thought about house testing multiple casts for the Sanctic Discipline? Multiple casts for say Hammerhand /Sanctuary /GoI makes so much more sense for GKs than smite spam. It's more strategic too imo, as it mitigates half of our prominent weaknesses i.e.as you mentioned - lack of speed, and lack of durability. I'd happily keep our baby smite if we get to use OUR own unique Sanctic Discipline to full and proper affect (with adding 1 to casting requirement for every re-cast attempt). 

 

Yeah I'm actually drafting my house rules now for my club. One of those is removing Psychic Focus, and imposing the Beta Smite '+1 to each subsequent cast of same power' penalty to everything, including Smite. It kills the Smite cheese, and opens the door for cooler tactics we currently can't perform. However, I'm not familiar with Eldar or Chaos, so allowing multi-casting of some of their powers might get out of hand. 'Vortex' however is the only one I'd restrict on us, probably just for HQ units (as its advanced magick). 

[Danarc]

Why razor can't Astral aim? They can. It is a waste o psychic power but can. I prefer use it on a Land Raider. 

[Ninjoe42]

Why razor can't Astral aim? They can. It is a waste o psychic power but can. I prefer use it on a Land Raider.

I think he's saying razorbacks can't cast it on themselves. So you'd need to spend the points on a designated caster who just hangs around in cover casting it. Dreads can at least cast it on themselves.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

In general you should take powers that will be self-cast. You could conceivably park a Purgator squad nearby as an 'Astral Aim' source, but that just worsens the comparison with the Venerable.

[Corvus Fortis]

I simply put razorbacks near venerable, so he can cast astral aim on them if they need it more for some reason.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well then you're kinda wasting the power. He's more accurate than the Razorback, plus has more shots that will receive the bonus (due to two gun arms). 

 

Speaking of which, have people run quad autocannon on the Venerable before? I'm getting pretty tired of watching my D6 damage become 1's or getting saved. It's only a -1 to enemy saves, but 3+ invul is a thing in multiple armies these days anyway. I'm not likely to crack a tank line at range anyway, so I don't mind too much dropping off against T8 targets. Is it still worth keeping one twin las arm?

 

Another option for supporting alpha strike is an Interceptor Outrider detachment. Lets you have more on-table drops, that can Shunt Turn 1 and form part of the alpha anyway. Does leave them vulnerable to Turn 1 enemy shooting, but it's the same issue the Dreads have. Has anyone had success with Interceptors used like that?

[Gentlemanloser]

If you take interceptors, stick them in Razors.

 

More units deployed for less deployments, first turn protection and you can still disembark then shunt.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah I was thinking that would probably be necessary. I think I'll stick with my original plan of just spamming Venerables for on-table drops. 

[Muaddib]

 

 

Another option for supporting alpha strike is an Interceptor Outrider detachment. Lets you have more on-table drops, that can Shunt Turn 1 and form part of the alpha anyway. Does leave them vulnerable to Turn 1 enemy shooting, but it's the same issue the Dreads have. Has anyone had success with Interceptors used like that?

I had. And still have! You ennemy will focus on something else most of the time. And the 12’ move is perfect to catch up with units fleeing before you.

I generally use 3x5 interceptors squad, deploying one in Razorbacks and two in a stormraven.