1st ITC RTT

[007]

Last weekend I attended my first ITC tournament, a small RTT with 11 total players IIRC.

 

I brought:

 

Battalion

Azrael
Talonmaster- Heavenfall relic blade
Scouts- 5
Scouts- 5
Scouts- 5
Hellblaster-10
Dark Talon

Outrider

Sammael- Sableclaw
Inceptor- 4-assault bolter
Inceptor- 6- plasma exterminator
Ravewing Biker Squad- 3- powersword, flamer, chainsword
Dark Shroud- heavy bolter

 

First game was against IG with a Shadowsword, a few sentinels, and the rest infantry with mortars and lascannons. Table quarters deployment on a very open board with only one real LOS blocking terrain piece.  I won first turn, but seized on, and he destroyed my Dark shroud and Talon and did a few other wounds here and there.  I ended up losing but was able to drop my plasma inceptors on turn 3 and nuke the Shadowsword even with -1 to hit and +1 save.  Had to wait to turn 3 for a dropzone to open up.  The rest of my army chewed up decent amounts of guardsmen, and game ended after 4 turns due to time.

 

Second game was against Space Wolves with 30+ Thunderwolf cavalry and 3 characters (iron priest, Canis, and some super werewolf).  I went first and used my speed and range to stay out of his melee reach for several turns, dropping a few squads per turn.  He got pissed and said Dark Angels are pure cheese (never had that happen before lol), but he brought a one dimensional list with next to no shooting, and less speed than mine. Won this one without issue.

 

Last game was also against IG.  Baneblade w/salamander, 5 basilisks, infantry and veterans with lascannons.  Played on same board as first game.  I went first, moved Dark talon, shroud, Sammy and Talon master, and bikes up.  Dropped all inceptors in front of Sammael and Talon master and Shroud.  1 combat squad of Hellblasters overcharged and took some wounds off the baneblade, then plasma inceptors finished it off easily, losing one to overheating.  Rest of force effectively removed another 2.5-3 infantry squads.  Opponent conceeded after turn two, with just basilisks and maybe 2 infantry squads left.

 

Overall I did well in points and finished 2nd.  First place was some type of chaos and/or demons.

 

My takeaways:

 

-Inceptors are fantastic, both styles.  Bolter-ceptors are super points efficient for the dakka, and I prefer plasma-ceptors to hellblasters or black knights since they are protected thru deepstrike ability.

 

-Sammy and Talon Master are a great mobile firebase.  I would not rush them headlong into enemy ranks, rather use them to finish off weakened units or to countercharge.  I prefer them to a jump pack master & lieutenant, among other reasons, because they buff the inceptors with rerolls 1's to hit and wound.

 

-Make sure your army is resilient, which can be obtained thru several methods, ie deep strike, Azrael invul bubble, Dark shroud, etc.

 

-Don't quit.  First game looked bleak, but my list's resilience (see above bullet) plus not quitting still netted me some decent points.  Sure it was still a loss, but it was enough to push me to second place.  My opponent asked me after turn 2 if I wanted to continue, I said yes.  Concession would have yielded zero points.

 

-Strategems I used- Speed of the Raven, Weapons from the Dark Age, Armor of Contempt, Only in Death does duty end (awesome when Sammy died from shooting in 1st game)

 

-I'm not sure what I want to change yet.  May keep it strictly DA for now, may add some Custodes bikes, I think they would synergize well with my list.
 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Nice work Brother Bond, keep it pure DA, leave th custard creams on the shelf.

[Solrac]

Well done mate, glad you hung in there in the first game.

 

ITC used to be very rough where you would lose all your battle points if you were tabled. Now you get to keep your points no matter what which is great.

 

My best advice if anyone is going to a Tournament, if half your army gets smashed turn 1, jump on objectives, hide behind LOS all game. Get points and make yourself mini personal goals. This makes even inevitable losses more enjoyable.

 

Well done on your 2nd place mate!

[SnakeChisler]

Well done indeed.

 

Played a comp few months back with a similar list and Solrac is spot on got two Eldar losses but because they found it difficult to roll me over I managed a fair few points in each game which to my surprise with only 1 win in 3 had me in the top half.

 

It also pushed them down as well, the Azreal stuff can take quite a pounding

 

What also made a difference was the 4++ on the bikes and they were scared of the plasma inceptors, a change I'm going to make to my list though is drop 2 scouts and replace with intercessors with sword and grenade launcher. The scouts on the flanks died way to quickly exsposing the character speeders.

[007]

Thanks all!

 

My scouts died quickly as well most games, but their main purpose is for creating a bubble to push back deepstrikers.  The intercessors would be good to advance a turn or two to replace damaged scout squads or objective holding.

[007]

I attended my second ITC RTT yesterday,  ending with 2 wins and 1 loss which put me 4th out of 16.

 

I went with the same list in my original post.  I wanted to get more reps with it before I make any changes.

 

First game was against a Nurgle/Chaos list with a prince, 2 plagueburst crawlers w/ spitters, 5 or so drones with double spitters, nurglings, a few supporting nurgle demons, 30 plague bearers, Ahriman and some brimstone horrors.  I got seized on and his army generally moved up on the next few turns.  We made it 4 full turns before time expired.  I managed to kill a PBC, several of the drones, nurglings, brimstones, many of the plague bearers.  Highlight of the game was my bikes getting free in his backfield and gunning down Ahriman.  Plasma inceptors continue to demonstrate their lethality, killing a PBC turn one.  A few turns later, two surviving inceptors killed the fresh Nurgle price.  I ended up with a close victory.  It would not have been as close if I wasn't seized on, as I could have pinned him in his quadrant.

 

Second game was against a Khorne army.  Skarbrand, 2 bloodthirsters, 3 squads of berzerkers in rhinos and Khârn. He went first and deepstruck all 3 greater demons.  One Rhino disembarked and controlled his backfield objective, the other two moved up.  Due to proper placement and scout usage, he was not able to deepstrike anywhere in my deployment zone.  So first turn he was only able to kill 2 scout squads with the demons.  My first turn the plasma inceptors came in and removed 1 bloodthirster, and the hellblasters killed the second.  Skarbrand got mowed down turn 2 and I proceeded to table him turn 3.

 

Last game was against a 12 Shield captain on bikes Custodes list.  He went first and moved most of the jetbikes up to a large ruin.  I debated on where to move and decided against moving back to about 22 inches from his bikes.  Bad idea.  He got 7 or 8 into combat turn two and I struggled to get a few points before I was wiped out.  If I kept my forces back a bit (limiting his charge successes) and deep struck  after he moved into the open I would have had a fighting chance.

 

 

With two tournaments under my belt using this list plus feedback, I'm looking to make a few small changes.  First is removing the bike squad.  I like their utility to defeat enemy screens, replace my scout screens as they are destroyed, and capture objectives.  So I'll replace them with a 3 man scout bike squad, saving a few points.  I'll also remove 1 assault bolter inceptor.  Then add in a company ancient with a stormbolter, bringing me to 2000 points.

 

Things to work on-  the right amount of aggressiveness and unit placement.  Got a little too adventurous in my last game, where some caution would have helped.  May try to drop inceptors in Azrael & ancient bubble when the situation allows.

 

A fun point I hadn't used before-  keep the Dark talon in my backfield, and then speed of the raven, advance and fly 60".  I did this in my second game and used it to kill the bezerker squad that my opponent didn't think I could touch the squad.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

Second game was against Space Wolves with 30+ Thunderwolf cavalry and 3 characters (iron priest, Canis, and some super werewolf).  I went first and used my speed and range to stay out of his melee reach for several turns, dropping a few squads per turn.  He got pissed and said Dark Angels are pure cheese (never had that happen before lol), but he brought a one dimensional list with next to no shooting, and less speed than mine. Won this one without issue.

 

 

God I really despise Space Wolves players who do this kind of nonsense, and worse of all had the gall to call you cheese for it. Apologies on behalf of decent Space Wolves players everywhere, I'll have my Wolf Priest (Chaplain) give a spanking to that stupid Jarl (Captain) and his wolf wolf wolf nonsense. And if that doesn't work, I'll send him to Bjorn the Fellhanded to spank him.... WITH A DREADNOUGHT POWER CLAW.

 

Seriously it's been almost a year since 8th edition came. From the very start, the TWC unit itself was nerfed drastically in terms of cost, speed and even hitting power. One year later he is still using it and wondering what went wrong? Disgraceful.

 

Well done on your performance, especially against the IG hoard with lots of artillery. Looks like the IG guy failed to bubble wrap his heavy tanks enough with his infantry and paid for it when you deepstruck/advanced/zoomed enough to get into plasma range. Doubt any other marine could pulll it off without Weapons from the Dark Age though. Capitalizing on your speed and firepower rather than melee prowess makes you a true Dark Angel competitively and fluffwise.

[shabbadoo]

I would keep the force pure DA and work within the confines of the great variety of units we have available.  And I second the above post as it regards the Space Wolves player. Somehow an army that is mobile, and that won't play the game on his terms, is cheesy? Nice job hitting him with the newspaper for pooping on the carpet.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Thanks for the write-up 007, and congrats on your 4th placing.

 

I think you will be pleased with scout bikers - I've been running a unit of 3 or 4 in my Ravenwing army and, while they don't usually survive the game, they do the Lion's work being excellent harassment units, and put out a surprising amount of firepower.

 

The Speed of the Raven dark talon is a great little trick. The real trick is remembering your 4++ in the opponent's shooting phase (I often forget!)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Thanks for the write-up 007, and congrats on your 4th placing.

 

I think you will be pleased with scout bikers - I've been running a unit of 3 or 4 in my Ravenwing army and, while they don't usually survive the game, they do the Lion's work being excellent harassment units, and put out a surprising amount of firepower.

 

The Speed of the Raven dark talon is a great little trick. The real trick is remembering your 4++ in the opponent's shooting phase (I often forget!)

 

Really wish I had scout bikers. The strategem on dealing mortal wounds after falling back is so cool and potentially lethal if he is dumb enough to stay in combat with the scout bikes. 

 

 

I attended my second ITC RTT yesterday,  ending with 2 wins and 1 loss which put me 4th out of 16.

 

I went with the same list in my original post.  I wanted to get more reps with it before I make any changes.

 

First game was against a Nurgle/Chaos list with a prince, 2 plagueburst crawlers w/ spitters, 5 or so drones with double spitters, nurglings, a few supporting nurgle demons, 30 plague bearers, Ahriman and some brimstone horrors.  I got seized on and his army generally moved up on the next few turns.  We made it 4 full turns before time expired.  I managed to kill a PBC, several of the drones, nurglings, brimstones, many of the plague bearers.  Highlight of the game was my bikes getting free in his backfield and gunning down Ahriman.  Plasma inceptors continue to demonstrate their lethality, killing a PBC turn one.  A few turns later, two surviving inceptors killed the fresh Nurgle price.  I ended up with a close victory.  It would not have been as close if I wasn't seized on, as I could have pinned him in his quadrant.

 

Second game was against a Khorne army.  Skarbrand, 2 bloodthirsters, 3 squads of berzerkers in rhinos and Khârn. He went first and deepstruck all 3 greater demons.  One Rhino disembarked and controlled his backfield objective, the other two moved up.  Due to proper placement and scout usage, he was not able to deepstrike anywhere in my deployment zone.  So first turn he was only able to kill 2 scout squads with the demons.  My first turn the plasma inceptors came in and removed 1 bloodthirster, and the hellblasters killed the second.  Skarbrand got mowed down turn 2 and I proceeded to table him turn 3.

 

Last game was against a 12 Shield captain on bikes Custodes list.  He went first and moved most of the jetbikes up to a large ruin.  I debated on where to move and decided against moving back to about 22 inches from his bikes.  Bad idea.  He got 7 or 8 into combat turn two and I struggled to get a few points before I was wiped out.  If I kept my forces back a bit (limiting his charge successes) and deep struck  after he moved into the open I would have had a fighting chance.

 

 

With two tournaments under my belt using this list plus feedback, I'm looking to make a few small changes.  First is removing the bike squad.  I like their utility to defeat enemy screens, replace my scout screens as they are destroyed, and capture objectives.  So I'll replace them with a 3 man scout bike squad, saving a few points.  I'll also remove 1 assault bolter inceptor.  Then add in a company ancient with a stormbolter, bringing me to 2000 points.

 

Things to work on-  the right amount of aggressiveness and unit placement.  Got a little too adventurous in my last game, where some caution would have helped.  May try to drop inceptors in Azrael & ancient bubble when the situation allows.

 

A fun point I hadn't used before-  keep the Dark talon in my backfield, and then speed of the raven, advance and fly 60".  I did this in my second game and used it to kill the bezerker squad that my opponent didn't think I could touch the squad.

 

Well done, looks like you recognise your failings in judging threat ranges and also judging right amount of aggresiveness.

 

Not sure why you're bringing in the Company Ancient though. Unless it is the Standard of Emperor Ascendant (which you don't have)which does the middle finger thing on a 3+, a 4+ to do so isn't that reliable..... I rather you keep the assault bolter, and spend the saved points from bikes for maybe a missile launcher or heavy bolter or sniper rifles for your scouts. Gives them a bit more bite while the rest of your more valuable units take the hits. Or alternatively, he gives target priority on them and waste his shots on the scouts while your hellblasters move upward.

 

For your third game... God do I hate the damn bananas. Or rather I hate the way they are being played right now, so many good units and people only use the banana captains. They truly are the Emperor's minions, just missing their nonsense language.

[SnakeChisler]

It really feels from the reports like you could take on just about anything and with what is fairly balanced list by comp standards. The green / raven lists seem to have a lot of synergy.

 

Personally think the HQ nerf to Tau commanders is going to end up being the norm, it doesn't make much sense fluff wise to have an army full of characters with additional troops used solely to block targeting.

[Kasper_Hawser]

That's why I don't spam any HQs. If the Tau Commander limit is anything to go by, pretty soon we're going to see the banana captains limited as well.

 

Seriously though, don't talk about fluff sense when it comes to competitive players. They don't give a damn on whether it makes sense on whether an army can be composed of banana captains as long as it helps them win.

 

I hear Dark Eldar actually encourages Lots and lots of detachments though.

[007]

Well done, looks like you recognise your failings in judging threat ranges and also judging right amount of aggresiveness.

 

Not sure why you're bringing in the Company Ancient though. Unless it is the Standard of Emperor Ascendant (which you don't have)which does the middle finger thing on a 3+, a 4+ to do so isn't that reliable..... I rather you keep the assault bolter, and spend the saved points from bikes for maybe a missile launcher or heavy bolter or sniper rifles for your scouts. Gives them a bit more bite while the rest of your more valuable units take the hits. Or alternatively, he gives target priority on them and waste his shots on the scouts while your hellblasters move upward.

 

For your third game... God do I hate the damn bananas. Or rather I hate the way they are being played right now, so many good units and people only use the banana captains. They truly are the Emperor's minions, just missing their nonsense language.

 

 

 

Agreed the 3+ banner is superior, but we don't have it.  Within Azrael range a BS3+ model has a 44% chance of getting a hit, assuming one shot.  I figure I can also sometimes drop the plasma inceptors in the ancient bubble for a chance at d3 extra plasma shots upon death.  After playing a few tournaments without it I'll try a few with an ancient and see if it is worthwhile.

[007]

It really feels from the reports like you could take on just about anything and with what is fairly balanced list by comp standards. The green / raven lists seem to have a lot of synergy.

 

Personally think the HQ nerf to Tau commanders is going to end up being the norm, it doesn't make much sense fluff wise to have an army full of characters with additional troops used solely to block targeting.

 

Thanks.  I think my list has a decent chance against most other builds.  I don't expect it to ever be top tier because marines in general aren't, but I'm happy to be winning with it even though I'm new in 8th.  I've heard from opponents that it is frustrating because it doesn't lend itself to giving them easy secondary points in ITC missions.  Will be interesting to see if the FAQ changes anything for us, kind of expecting the dark talon to go up.

[Solrac]

The Ancient is always worth the points.

 

I went to a 1 day tournament last week with my 27 Hellblaster list (3 squads of 9 Hellblasters, Azrael, Lt, Primaris Ancient, Scouts and 3 Dark Talons). Finished 8th out of 28 with 2 wins and 1 loss.

 

My loss was against an Alpha Legion Obliterator Spam list (had 6 units of 3 Oblits, DP, 3 units of Cultists, 2 big units of bikes and a Chaos Lord). The Oblit list was brutal. He had first turn and killed 17 Hellblasters with his alpha strike. I killed just under half of his Obliterators when they died just because of the Ancient. By the end of the game he only had a Chaos lord and 2 Obliterators left and I had 2 Scouts left, ending T6.

 

I always had a chance to win this game because of the Ancient. if I didn't have the Ancient I probably would have been tabled T2. 

 

If I had won that game I would have come 2nd.

 

Moral of the story is if you are taking an Azrael gunline, always opt for the Primaris Ancient at minimum as an extra 6 points for a Bolt Rifle, +1W and +1A is a steal. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

Agreed the 3+ banner is superior, but we don't have it.  Within Azrael range a BS3+ model has a 44% chance of getting a hit, assuming one shot.  I figure I can also sometimes drop the plasma inceptors in the ancient bubble for a chance at d3 extra plasma shots upon death.  After playing a few tournaments without it I'll try a few with an ancient and see if it is worthwhile.

 

 

 

The Ancient is always worth the points.

 

I went to a 1 day tournament last week with my 27 Hellblaster list (3 squads of 9 Hellblasters, Azrael, Lt, Primaris Ancient, Scouts and 3 Dark Talons). Finished 8th out of 28 with 2 wins and 3 losses.

 

My loss was against an Alpha Legion Obliterator Spam list (had 6 units of 3 Oblits, DP, 3 units of Cultists, 2 big units of bikes and a Chaos Lord). The Oblit list was brutal. He had first turn and killed 17 Hellblasters with his alpha strike. I killed just under half of his Obliterators when they died just because of the Ancient. By the end of the game he only had a Chaos lord and 2 Obliterators left and I had 2 Scouts left, ending T6.

 

I always had a chance to win this game because of the Ancient. if I didn't have the Ancient I probably would have been tabled T2. 

 

If I had won that game I would have come 2nd.

 

Moral of the story is if you are taking an Azrael gunline, always opt for the Primaris Ancient at minimum as an extra 6 points for a Bolt Rifle, +1W and +1A is a steal. 

 

I guess even the regular ancient is good if you have a sort of "spam" unit on your side, whether it is a horde of Hellblasters, like > 5 of them in multiple squads, or multiple heavy weapon squads. For me, it didn't work because my typical lists are very mixed, as in the only thing that appears more than 3 times in lots are troops. Everything else is in twos. And the banner is very inefficient when working with troops with mixed weapons.

 

Still, I will give it a chance, sitting back with my 3 Long Fangs (devastator squads) to maximize the 50% chance. Although as in everything else, Hellblasters seems to be where it's at.

 

Anybody seeing a parallel between the Grav cheese of 6-7th Ed to the Hellblasters cheese of now? What I define as cheese, is a unit that almost completely overshadows all other units and in a sense, fulfills rolls that it shouldn't. In the case of Grav, it unintentionally fufilled an-antivehicle role and was vastly superior in erasing elite infantry compared to plasma. Whereas now, with changes to Toughness and damage, Hellblasters seem to now overlap into anti-vehicle/MC to the point it supplants meltas and regular plasma now.

 

Sorry, just something that popped in my head. I'm still not agreeing with that idiot Space Wolf player in your tourney, but I have to admit that when I faced the Standard of Emperor ascendant with Hellblasters, something in me snapped as I saw him not only give the middle finger by shooting back on 3+, but also overcharging to kill my dreadnought or tank as well. As if assault is already hard enough, now they let shooting phase give middle fingers IN YOUR TURN.

[RayJ]

Comparing hellblasters to old grav squads is appropriate. The damage output is similar, but they have the benefit of being way more durable.

 

I don't think they overshadow everything, but they probably do oveshadow veteran fire support squads.

[march10k]

I'm stubbornly sticking to my assessment that hellblasters are too expensive if they're only getting one shot appiece, which makes them good for board control (nobody wants to get within half range!), but not as good for killing stuff.  But plasma inceptors with WotDA?  Solid Gold!!!

[Helycon]

A Chapter Ancient is slightly better overall, since the BS of units shooting again is resolved at BS 2+ in stead of 3+ for most of our units, meaning more overcharged hits will kill more stuff. The extra attack is only useful if you get charged, the wound pretty much means you're already in trouble. When compared to the regular Company Ancient, I'll agree. I'd recommend always finding room for the Chapter Ancient though! It's comperable to a Standard of Emperor Ascendant in terms of output, for 22 points more.

[Solrac]

A Chapter Ancient is slightly better overall, since the BS of units shooting again is resolved at BS 2+ in stead of 3+ for most of our units, meaning more overcharged hits will kill more stuff. The extra attack is only useful if you get charged, the wound pretty much means you're already in trouble. When compared to the regular Company Ancient, I'll agree. I'd recommend always finding room for the Chapter Ancient though! It's comperable to a Standard of Emperor Ascendant in terms of output, for 22 points more.

 

Sorry I was comparing regular Ancient vs Primaris Ancient for only 6 points and outlining the bonuses. Whilst the Chapter Ancient's banner is superior in my particular list I was able to fit in another Hellblaster knocking the Chapter Ancient down to a Primaris Ancient. Because of Azrael re-rolls it didn't make much of a difference on the hitting part but the extra Hellblaster made a lot of difference. Everyone prioritises their lists differently you just have to keep these things in mind.

[Solrac]

I'm stubbornly sticking to my assessment that hellblasters are too expensive if they're only getting one shot appiece, which makes them good for board control (nobody wants to get within half range!), but not as good for killing stuff.  But plasma inceptors with WotDA?  Solid Gold!!!

 

I think they appropriately costed. With a gun line list like mine you want to get closer as you get the potential of extra free shots as they die and you can control the mid field a lot better. 9 Hellblasters with re-rolls managed to one shot Chronus in a Predator with easy with only 1 shot each at 30". Also the scare factor that bulk Hellblasters have is quite high. In two different games vs two different Guillimans they stayed away the whole game as they were afraid to get close. I also really rate the -4 over the -3. Doesn't seem like much but knowing a 3+ save model won't get a save at all really helps in determining how many shots you should put in a unit.

 

I do like Inceptors I just need to experiment with them more with the best way for them to fit into one of my lists.

[Kasper_Hawser]

A Chapter Ancient is slightly better overall, since the BS of units shooting again is resolved at BS 2+ in stead of 3+ for most of our units, meaning more overcharged hits will kill more stuff. The extra attack is only useful if you get charged, the wound pretty much means you're already in trouble. When compared to the regular Company Ancient, I'll agree. I'd recommend always finding room for the Chapter Ancient though! It's comperable to a Standard of Emperor Ascendant in terms of output, for 22 points more.

 

Not sure I understand this, you mean the Chapter Ancient banner lets add +1 to shooting? That's crazy. Is it a specific Dark Angel banner? I understand you have 3, one for Deathwing, one for Ravenwing and one for Greenwing. 

 

damn you cross dressers with your disciplined firing. I still want to send my Grey Hunters back to the Fang sometimes due to their less than average (for marines) shooting sometimes, with almost no way to improve the shots without a Lord/captain nearby.

 

As for Hellblasters, expensive though they maybe, but decently costed otherwise their spam would be even worse. If your opponent wastes a lascannon at range at the Hellblaster, he is not shooting at your other tanks and long range weapons. And a hellblaster CAN survive a death wound if the other guy rolls a 1 for damage, unlike a regular joe marine.

 

Perhaps its too early to call them cheese, but in most marine armies in my meta, if anyone brings primaris at all, it'll be, in order of priority, 

 

1) Hellblasters

2) Inceptors assault bolters variety for dakka

3) Primaris Ancient

4) Primaris lieutenant

5) Inceptors plasma

6) Repulsor

7) Aggressors

8) Intercessors

[solarisqc]

 

Not sure I understand this, you mean the Chapter Ancient banner lets add +1 to shooting? That's crazy. Is it a specific Dark Angel banner? I understand you have 3, one for Deathwing, one for Ravenwing and one for Greenwing. 

 

The rules for the Dark Angel Chapter Ancient give a last Attack on 4+ like other banner, but the Attack are resolve with BS/WS 2+ when you make your final Attack.

The Deathwing and Ravenwing Ancient are only +1 Attack for Deathwing/Ravenwing unit within 6'', they don't give the revenge Attack or the +1 leadership like the greenwing banner.

[MaxB]

 

 

Not sure I understand this, you mean the Chapter Ancient banner lets add +1 to shooting? That's crazy. Is it a specific Dark Angel banner? I understand you have 3, one for Deathwing, one for Ravenwing and one for Greenwing. 

 

The Chapter Ancient banner lets you resolve any hits at BS/WS 2+ (after the first  4+ to fight/shoot). Rather than the company banner where you use your base BS/WS. The Deathwing and Ravenwing Ancients just grant their respective wings +1 Attack.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Very impressive nonetheless, potentially more lethal to make sure that last middle finger really hurts. But balanced out by the fact that you still need a 4+ to pull it off.

 

Oh dear lord, I'm dying for a bone from GW regarding the Wolf codex at the moment....

 

..... I need to neuter myself for using a dog joke on my own chapter.....