Questions regarding FnP stacking and CP Re-Roll

[XenoMechanicum]

Hi, I just had a game a few days ago against someone and I think he either doesn't understand the rules as well as he thinks, or was a bit too competitive for the situation, but either way I wanted to seek he B+C's opinions on these;

 

He said that the Iron Resolve Warlord trait does not stack with the Iron Hands Chapter tactics, that any FnP is only once - but is he just thinking back to previous editions where there was only ONE universal rule? Everyone else I've seen online implies that as long as the rules aren't the exact same, they can stack (same way My Will Be Done from multiple Overlords doesn't stack because it's the same ability.)

 

My next question I'm less sure of but I've been meaning to ask anyway, the Command Reroll only says Reroll any single die (per phase or turn I can't remember), but I remember reading something about how it doesn't say YOU reroll, so you could retoll even another players roll?

 

I had another question that was already confirmed in another thread (and I was pretty sure of it already) when he said you only get Battle forged bonuses if your army is mono - as in no +1 psychic bonus for your grey knights if you have even one detachment of non-grey knights - but I figure that it's just the evolved version of allies, and convinced me I should get another opinion on it all.

 

Looking forward to the replies and thanks in advance!

 

Edit: I forgot the other point I wanted to get clarification on - he charged my Centurion Assault Squad with one of his 5 man tac squads, weathered my overwatch, and then declared a charge with his other two 5 model squads who he said wouldn't take overwatch because my guys were already in Melee - is that right? I always thought that only one unit can be in melee with one unit.

Edited March 13, 2018 by XenoMechanicum

[Quixus]

He said that the Iron Resolve Warlord trait does not stack with the Iron Hands Chapter tactics, that any FnP is only once - but is he just thinking back to previous editions where there was only ONE universal rule? Everyone else I've seen online implies that as long as the rules aren't the exact same, they can stack (same way My Will Be Done from multiple Overlords doesn't stack because it's the same ability.)

You are right on that one. Only rerolls are limited to one. Additional rolls that do something to wounds can be done in sequence as long as they do not come from the same ability or the ability explicitly says so.

 

My next question I'm less sure of but I've been meaning to ask anyway, the Command Reroll only says Reroll any single die (per phase or turn I can't remember), but I remember reading something about how it doesn't say YOU reroll, so you could retoll even another players roll?

You cannot force the other player to reroll his rolls, nor can you reroll a die you have not rolled yet (i.e. an opponent's roll).

 

I had another question that was already confirmed in another thread (and I was pretty sure of it already) when he said you only get Battle forged bonuses if your army is mono - as in no +1 psychic bonus for your grey knights if you have even one detachment of non-grey knights - but I figure that it's just the evolved version of allies, and convinced me I should get another opinion on it all.

The whole army needs to be battle-forged no matter what faction, and any Grey Knights detachment would get the +1. For example you could have a Ultramarine Battalion and a Grey Knight Vanguard detachment and the Grey Knights would get the +1. The Ultramarine detachment would get its appropriate benefit.

 

Edit: I forgot the other point I wanted to get clarification on - he charged my Centurion Assault Squad with one of his 5 man tac squads, weathered my overwatch, and then declared a charge with his other two 5 model squads who he said wouldn't take overwatch because my guys were already in Melee - is that right? I always thought that only one unit can be in melee with one unit.

Yes, a unit can be in combat with more than one other unit. Your opponent did it completely correctly. As long as any unit gets into combat with the centurions, they cannot overwatch any more.

[XenoMechanicum]

Thanks for the clarification! That last point certainly does change my tactics just a bit - I know it's probably not competitive but I want to fly a stormraven behind enemy lines and dump my centurions, a Chaplain, and an ironclad Dreadnought behind them, and knowing Melee can work like that changes things just a touch - but also I know characters generally can't be targeted unless they're the closest model, does that apply if the intervening unit (in this case my centurions blocking the Chaplain disembarking behind them) is locked in Melee?

[BluejayJunior]

 

He said that the Iron Resolve Warlord trait does not stack with the Iron Hands Chapter tactics, that any FnP is only once - but is he just thinking back to previous editions where there was only ONE universal rule? Everyone else I've seen online implies that as long as the rules aren't the exact same, they can stack (same way My Will Be Done from multiple Overlords doesn't stack because it's the same ability.)

You are right on that one. Only rerolls are limited to one. Additional rolls that do something to wounds can be done in sequence as long as they do not come from the same ability or the ability explicitly says so.

In general, yes. But be sure to read the specific rules. There are some that explicitly say they don't stack. I believe there is an Eldar WL trait or something that doesn't stack with the Ulthwé FnP trait. (I could be mistaken, I don't have the book) And for the Blood Angels, the Death Company ability doesn't stack with the Standard of Sacrifice relic. But that is clear from the rule for Standard of Sacrifice. 

 

Thanks for the clarification! That last point certainly does change my tactics just a bit - I know it's probably not competitive but I want to fly a stormraven behind enemy lines and dump my centurions, a Chaplain, and an ironclad Dreadnought behind them, and knowing Melee can work like that changes things just a touch - but also I know characters generally can't be targeted unless they're the closest model, does that apply if the intervening unit (in this case my centurions blocking the Chaplain disembarking behind them) is locked in Melee?

Yes, but enemy units can still fire overwatch at them and declare charges against them. 

[Eddie Orlock]

 

I had another question that was already confirmed in another thread (and I was pretty sure of it already) when he said you only get Battle forged bonuses if your army is mono - as in no +1 psychic bonus for your grey knights if you have even one detachment of non-grey knights - but I figure that it's just the evolved version of allies, and convinced me I should get another opinion on it all.

The whole army needs to be battle-forged no matter what faction, and any Grey Knights detachment would get the +1. For example you could have a Ultramarine Battalion and a Grey Knight Vanguard detachment and the Grey Knights would get the +1. The Ultramarine detachment would get its appropriate benefit.

 

Conditionally, there's a matched play rule on pg 214 that further binds that all units in the army for that type of game must share at least one faction keyword, or be unaligned. This has no impact on detachment level rules and should not be confused at a further requirement for them.

 

... I know characters generally can't be targeted unless they're the closest model, does that apply if the intervening unit (in this case my centurions blocking the Chaplain disembarking behind them) is locked in Melee?

Yes, the Chaplain would be screened if the Centurions were closer. This is somewhat specifically commented upon in the right hand column on page 2 of the Designer's Commentary.

[XenoMechanicum]

Yeah it's just the technicality ruling to prevent people from trying to throw a Tyranid horde alongside their Space Marines or something similarly weird - I just realized I think he was getting confused with the Grand Alliances from AoS come to think of it, since that's about how they work as far as I know.

[XenoMechanicum]

Thanks for all the replies! This does help since I'm still fairly new - I wanted to be sure of what was just rumors and what's actually legitimate (like the CP Reroll) and what are actually rulings and not him doing some slightly shady rules lawyering (I didn't argue when he told me that I have to declare all of my weapons for targeting at the same time when split firing after I used my land raiders lascannons, since it makes sense, but I do feel he was taking advantage of my never having heard of the rule to prevent the rest of my weapons from firing into his troops after I destroyed his dread.)

 

I try not to be rude and try to learn, but he was a little unpleasant to play with - especially after he admitted he was pretty sure he was telling me the wrong numbers to roll for because he got confused on my models toughness.

[XenoMechanicum]

 

... I know characters generally can't be targeted unless they're the closest model, does that apply if the intervening unit (in this case my centurions blocking the Chaplain disembarking behind them) is locked in Melee?

Yes, the Chaplain would be screened if the Centurions were closer. This is somewhat specifically commented upon in the right hand column on page 2 of the Designer's Commentary.

Thanks! So he can't be targeted during the shooting phase because the centurions are closer, and the centurions can't be shot at while in Melee?

 

That reminds me of another question and I apologize if I'm dragging this topic out, let me know if I just need to make another post, but how do pistols actually work? I previously thought pistols could be used to shoot at enemies who are in melee (centurions in melee with enemy Chaos lord, my gravis captain can fire into the enemy Chaos lord as an example) but during the game he said that instead it means if the gravis captain is in melee with the Chaos lord, he can shoot the Chaos lord (or nearby enemies?) only during the shooting phase, then melee as normal?

[Eddie Orlock]

[D]uring the game he said that instead it means if the gravis captain is in melee with the Chaos lord, he can shoot the Chaos lord (or nearby enemies?) only during the shooting phase, then melee as normal?

Your opponent was mostly correct about this, but the Pistol rules can get a little esoteric.

 

It's a change from prior editions, but pistols are no longer an implement of the Melee phase, but they do have a conditional exception to be used in the shooting phase, even by units that are engaged in melee, albeit they have additional targeting restrictions in that case. In the prior thread we observe that the pistols-in-combat restriction is per model to the closest enemy unit. So, if your Captain is in base contact with the Chaos Lord, unless some other enemy figure is in base contact, your Captain will be shooting the Chaos Lord with his Pistol if he elects to shoot at all. Further more, the waiver in the pistol rules to shoot at enemies within an inch of your dudes is contingent upon a member of your unit being within an inch of an enemy.

[XenoMechanicum]

...Esoteric is putting it mildly, are we sure that Tzeentch hasn't been made real and is currently in charge of writing the rules?

 

I do appreciate that link as it clarifies things a bit - unfortunately in a way that causes more questions that I don't currently have the willpower to wrap my head around lol.

 

Your post does mostly clear up the issue though and I'll try to mostly keep things from escalating to such a weird scenario is you mentioned in the link - hopefully anyway!

[Kallas]

With regards to split fire, a player does have to declare all targets that a chosen unit is firing at before any dice are rolled. It looks like it's there to stop, for the Land Raider example, firing two Lascannons at one Dreadnought to see if it dies and then firing the others to finish it.

[Quixus]

With regards to split fire, a player does have to declare all targets that a chosen unit is firing at before any dice are rolled. It looks like it's there to stop, for the Land Raider example, firing two Lascannons at one Dreadnought to see if it dies and then firing the others to finish it.

There is no more split fire rule. Any unit can split its fire among multiple targets. During Step 2. you do not have to say which weapon is trained on which unit. and the wounds can only be allocated among the models of the unit you targeted. So there is nothing from stopping the player of the land raider to declare the dreadnought and another target, then shoot one lascannon at the dreadnought and then the other at the extra target if the first has destroyed the dreadnought or shooting at the dreadnought as well if the first lascannon was not enough.

[Kallas]

 

With regards to split fire, a player does have to declare all targets that a chosen unit is firing at before any dice are rolled. It looks like it's there to stop, for the Land Raider example, firing two Lascannons at one Dreadnought to see if it dies and then firing the others to finish it.

There is no more split fire rule. Any unit can split its fire among multiple targets. During Step 2. you do not have to say which weapon is trained on which unit. and the wounds can only be allocated among the models of the unit you targeted. So there is nothing from stopping the player of the land raider to declare the dreadnought and another target, then shoot one lascannon at the dreadnought and then the other at the extra target if the first has destroyed the dreadnought or shooting at the dreadnought as well if the first lascannon was not enough.

 

You misunderstood what I was saying (and it looks like the shooting rules too).

 

Yes, a unit can split fire among multiple targets, but it must declare all weapons' targets before it fires any of them.

[[Edit: the reason for this is because dice rolling comes at a later step of the Shooting Phase:

Step 1; pick a unit to shoot with

Step 2; choose that units targets

Step 3+; roll dice

 

You can't go back to Step 2 after Step 3+ has begun, unless is says to (such as in the Charge Phase).]]

 

My example was to highlight what cannot be done - you can't keep the second Lascannon sponson 'in reserve' without a target, in case the first one kills the Dreadnought so that you can target something else; it either goes on the Dreadnought before you know how successful you are, or it goes somewhere else and the Dreadnought might survive.

 

Here's some extra detail:

Land Raider - 2x Twin Lascannon, 1x Twin Heavy Bolter

Enemies - Dreadnought #1, Dreadnought #2, Infantry Squad

 

Target Declaration:

Land Raider must decide where its weapons are pointing before it fires any of them. So it must decide whether to fire both Twin LC at Dreadnought #1 to more reliably kill it, or if it should split the two weapon systems evenly and hope for the best.

 

The Twin Heavy Bolters shoot at the Infantry Squad; then one Twin Lascannon at each Dreadnought.

 

Firing:

If the Land Raider starts by shooting the Lascannons at Dreadnought #1, which survives on 2 wounds; the Land Raider is not allowed to shoot its other Lascannons at #1, because it has already declared them going against #2.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Kallas

[Quixus]

You are right, but it is not during target declaration but during weapon selection where you have to assign the shots. I missed it there.