Expectations of the new Codex

[Kaldoth]

So, a topic was started over on Da Waaagh about this, so I figured I'd pretty much paste it over here to see what the Frater here think.

I have to say, for the first time in a long time, I'm actually pretty happy with an edition of 40k.  While I do miss things like scatter dice, blast templates, range guessing, sweeping advances, etc, the game is streamlined, faster, and easier to play.  Plus not having to track all of those special rules that formations/detachments give you anymore is a Gork/Mork send.  I absolutely hated that marketing gimmick.  While 8th does have its problems, and is in no way my favorite edition, its the first time in a long time that it feels like every army that has a Codex stands a reasonable chance against any other Codex army in at least friendly games, which is a first in a long time.  

 

So, all that being said, I'm very hopeful, but not optimistic about our Ork dex.  Reason being, I feel like out of every Index army, Orks got the biggest balancing shaft out of them all.  The only viable lists we had to play competitively were mass boyz lists with weirdboys, warbosses, and KFFs/painboyz to mitigate enemy shooting.  Playing shooty ork lists, or trying to use our more shooty units usually ended up not working out too well, if at all.  I do believe that seeing every other codex, there is no doubt in my mind the Ork dex will be playable.  I'm certain we will get Klan traints and special rules/relics/stratagems, but beyond that I'm doubting GW is going to get away from the "melee horde" style that we have been having to use since the index came out.  Will it be playable? Sure, I don't doubt that at all.  I fully expect horde lists, transport lists, and melee units like bikers, nobz, MANZ, and maybe even Kommandos to get some serious love.  But things like our big/mek gunz, gork/morkanaughts, jets/bommas, deffkoptas, etc to kind of stay where they are at, if get changed at all.  

Our index kind of pigeonholed us into being a melee only army.  Most other index armies had at least a balance of different unit types to choose from, but Orks were pretty much stuck with boyz, nobz, weirdboyz, warbosses, kommandoz, etc.  Hate to say it, but I think we will see that trend continued in the new dex.  But, that's just my take on things.

So, what do you guys think? After seeing the Codexes that have been released so far, are you optimistic about changes and reworks? What would you like to see, vs what you think will actually be in there? 

Cheers,

 

-Kal

[Warhead01]

I just don't know. I have no expectations at all. shooting is a real problem. I'm in the middle of a list right now that is meant to shoot more than assault but I feel it's a bit hopeless. Like I am forcing it. Maybe I am.  
But I won't get into it. Not feeling like beating a dead horse. Just wish more shooting stuff would hit on a BS 4+ than we have now. Not everything just more.

I'd like to see some shooting buffs via stratagems I guess. Dakka Dakka isn't really a buff. But improving the to hit or to gain a reroll of some kind would be good.

As dim has said or maybe it was some one else, Orks don't have enough things to spend command points on.

[toaae]

I'm finished with Da Waaagh, as it's just an echo-chamber of negativity, and you cannot get a good discussion about anything going without it devolving into the same topic everytime.

Anyways, on topic, I am optimistic for our codex. I think you only have to look at Tyranids and Tau to get a sense of what we might expect. Both had index lists with problems, both have gotten (or are getting) a codex that addresses many of those issues, as well as added stuff that was both thematic and not expected. Stratagems are a big part of each codex that can completely change an army. My Blood Angels, for instance, went from unplayable in the index to a great army with their codex, almost solely on the back of stratagems.

There will be points drops, new rules, and other changes. We have a strong core of rules, with the best Mob Rule I've ever seen (since at least 3rd), boyz are strong and costed appropriately, and we already have access to things like re-roll charge distance and charge after advance. Layer stratagems on that, and I can't see how our codex could be a complete disappointment.

All that said, we do need help when it comes to shooting. KMKs in Mek Guns carry themselves on the back of their extreme points efficiency, and Tankbustas are solid if not spectacular, but other than those two, our shooting units suffer too much from any single thing not going their way. We need less variance for some of our guns, and a blanket rule ignoring negative modifiers from our enemies would be good. No matter how point efficient a unit is, if we get a -2 to hit, it doesn't matter, since nothing will be able to hit it.

But I still cannot believe anyone could honestly think our codex will be a let-down. That just hasn't happened in 8th yet, and I don't think it will happen with us.

[FlamingDeth]

As I mentioned on the waaagh, I don’t expect much out of the ork codex. GW doesn’t really have a handle on what orks are supposed to be. I expect that they won’t address the shooting at all, will buff melee somehow, and then wonder why loota sales are so bad. Also we still won’t have looted wagons even though doing it right would boost sales for almost zero effort.

[DuskRaider]

As an Ork player that sat out from 7th - current and looking to start up again, I'm a bit skeptical of GW's philosophy as of late (8th) when it comes to Orks. Shooting has been nerfed to a large extent as previously mentioned with hit modifiers and I don't see these being fixed for Orks. This is quite unfortunate because I play Blood Axe Klan and as I'm rebuilding the army from the base, I intend on fielding mainly Shoota Boyz with a horde or two of Sluggaz mixed in. The bump in points for vehicles has also hurt Orks a bit, especially with Trukks. What used to be an insanely cheap (albeit ramshackle) transport has soared in points while also becoming more fragile with the new rules. As with GW's design philosophy, I don't see Looted Tanks making a come back as they aren't sold SPECIFICALLY as such and thus GW sees no profit in it somehow... yeah, I don't know.

 

On the upside, I'm positive we'll see Klan rules. I'm eager to see what they do with these, I hope they're more than the same old subset rules we've seen with most armies. Ork Klans have the ability to be very unique in play style and thematics, I can only hope GW takes avantage of this while also knowing they won't be releasing new kits.

[FlamingDeth]

I hope that they give blood axes BS 4+ at least. Maybe give them a reroll shooting warlord trait or something as well. I dunno. They could do all kinds of things that they probably won’t.

 

As for looted wagons, it’d be easy. Release an add on sprue with some ramshackle armor plates, orky guns, whatever. Put some rules in the ork codex to use the base vehicle points from the original codex with orky stat modifications and weapons. Get paid money.

 

Honestly looted vehicles are the crux of ork character. Right now with just ork vehicles they expect us to believe that orks just drive garbage piles around or something and that’s not the case. Orks aren’t some group or wild idiot berserkers, they’re infinitely resourceful but only for the purpose of war. They’re not dumb, just single minded and goal oriented.

 

But GW doesn’t understand that anymore, so there’s no way they’re going to actually include it.

[DuskRaider]

Exactly... it would be easy for GW to do a lot of things this addition including giving us the freedom to be creative, but they haven't thus far. The VDR were a bust, although I'm hoping they expand upon them (even though they're only for open play). To alleviate a lot of the inherent issues I'll probably run an allied IG detachment especially seeing as fluffwise my Blood Axes have a human  /  abhuman (willing) company. 

 

I would also agree that rules-wise, Blood Axes should have BS 4+ to represent their martial prowess, but if I was a betting man I'd expect them to share the same rule that Raven Guard & Alpha Legion have (-1 hit over 12"). 

[FlamingDeth]

They could do both, 4+ BS and extra cover or -1 hit for mobs 10 models or less. Would let you play sneaky gits or well trained gun line, depending on your preference. They could do something more creative too. We’ll have to see. I expect all the traits to at least marginally useful.

[Marshlands]

I think an ability to never hit on worse than 5+ would make a big difference for shooty orks. I'm assuming everything will be 5+ still which could work with points adjustments/ more shots etc. But the shooty ork list is screwed when penalties to hit come in

[Warhead01]

I don't know. I'd be pleased with +1 BS options and rerolls as a thing. I'd think those would be buffs from characters or stratagems. I'd kinda prefer being able to buy boys with a BS 4+ but don't expect it.  I'd like Bikers to drop to about 20 point a model maybe 22 points each.  What about a second trukk that can carry up to 15 models. that's be cool. I'm not too stressed over it really. I'm sure we'll be as OP as every other new codex. 

I'd love a new Big Gun/Mek gun some kinda indirect firing weapon. with 2 to 4 d3 shots something where just adding one is as good as taking a buncha lobbas. 
Like some kind of pulsa rokkit launcher good for 3 or 4 shots each game. Something spacy and Orky. 

Most of my hopes are really wish listing.

[Hellrender]

A huge part of the problem with ork shooting comes from the loss of templates/blast markers. In all indeci the weapons that used to have blast markers, got an extremely low shot count. The problem is, that with many other indeci, where things like the vindicator are already considered subpar, they still have BS4+ or even 3+. Orks do not.

 

Giving them BS 4+ is rather dull, but yes, would be a way in improving this. But i much rather see a much more increased shot count on weapons. For starters this does not limit it to a specific clan, and second it is just far more orky. 

 

The -1 to hit debuff if you are 10 or fewer models or at a certain range for Blood Axes is incredibly powerful for Raven guard, because plasma guns are very effective against space marines. I feel the -1 to hit is largely wasted on orks, as anything has a decent chance of killing ork boys. No need for plasma guns. 

 

 

So what am i hoping? Fluff appropiate clan traits, looted vehicles, and a viability for several different playstyles. I do think we should give GW the benefit of the doubt here. Many codeci have been released in the last few months, and as far i can see the majority have been done well and thought through.  

[Warhead01]

A huge part of the problem with ork shooting comes from the loss of templates/blast markers. In all indeci the weapons that used to have blast markers, got an extremely low shot count. The problem is, that with many other indeci, where things like the vindicator are already considered subpar, they still have BS4+ or even 3+. Orks do not.

 

Giving them BS 4+ is rather dull, but yes, would be a way in improving this. But i much rather see a much more increased shot count on weapons. For starters this does not limit it to a specific clan, and second it is just far more orky. 

 

The -1 to hit debuff if you are 10 or fewer models or at a certain range for Blood Axes is incredibly powerful for Raven guard, because plasma guns are very effective against space marines. I feel the -1 to hit is largely wasted on orks, as anything has a decent chance of killing ork boys. No need for plasma guns. 

 

 

So what am i hoping? Fluff appropiate clan traits, looted vehicles, and a viability for several different playstyles. I do think we should give GW the benefit of the doubt here. Many codeci have been released in the last few months, and as far i can see the majority have been done well and thought through.  

I think your right on a lot of this.

I keep thinking some stratagems to help shooting would be the right way to go while still being limited. Although, a mob sized based shoota boy bonus for being 20 or more models would be nice as well.

I know a 'always hit on a 6" has been kicked around  the internet but I'm not sold on it. It seems like a lazy way out of addressing Ork shooting, if they do it at all. 

Really, as a stratagem I'd be for it. and I'd like it as a universal stratagem for all of the factions I think that's reasonable. 

 

[Guest Triszin]

So with what Ullanor has added lore wise for the orks.

 

Ullanor has showed us there is more to Ork evolution to be acheived.

 

A "prime - ork" or " Beast"

In truth there was not a single Warboss known as The Beast. Rather, they were a collection of six "Prime-Orks", monstrously powerful and intelligent Warbosses who each commanded a "Legion" (possibly Clan) of Greenskins

 

the similarities to Ghaz now are inline with the above sentence.

- ghaz was sited all over the galaxy in short time peroids leading massive waaghs and winning wars

- IMperials thought this to be errors referring to multiple different wagh warboss as ghaz

 

- my specualtion

- to become a "Beast/Warboss" the fungus (ghaz) doubles itself a few times.

- Each of these duplicates IS GHAZ, it is a perfect duplicate of the original. Each duplicate gains the waagh power from each one.

- Thus 6-8 ghaz's running around the galaxy with each there own massive waagh all feeing into the Ghaz power matrix circuit.

- Then they become "the beast"

 

what we know so far.

 

Ork evolution chart:

 

1.Fungus

2.Boys

3.Nobz

4.Oddboys

5.Warboss

-new ullanor lore, Im making up these names as I dont think they had names

6. War Boyz (the size of warbosses)

7. War Nobz (above warboss size)

8. Prime-orks/beast ( at or above primarch size, even deamon primach in size)

[Warhead01]

It's interesting enough but GW is in a bit of a bind with the stat structure they have now. I'd be interested to see how they get them selves out of that spot.

I'd expect no more than 5 kits tops based on the last "major Ork release" last edition. (Maybe less.) 

Regarding the Klans, if deff Skulls get a better BS to hit roll...I may have to migrate to the blue option.  No amount of more choppy would be worth not shooting better.

(Prove me wrong GW!  )

 

I'm not really sold on the idea of "Prim-Orks" It was fun as a bit in those books but those books weren't about Orks at all. Orks were just the back drop to the story about Imperial politics.

A Larger Ghaz would be nice but for myself, I'd boy him a few years from now to paint and sit on the shelf. 
I'd hope for a more propper set of Bosses, options for a Big Boss, war Boss, and War Lord. 
I'm excited to see what kind or green empire the Orks have carves out in the Rift. It could be very cool and not just hostile space. I hope they have subjugated a lot of worlds and offer some form of protection racket.  Hopefully this includes protecting or working with a Space Marine chapter for mutual benefit.  Lets get those Loyal Marines hands extra dirty. lol 

 

One more thing! I want KFF's to be able to interlink to expand their area of coverage. I mean If one unit is covered by 2 KFF's then I'd like them to both be counted as under the bubble. That would be fantastic! And I'd be happy to field more KFF Big Meks! 

[Redtoof]

So with what Ullanor has added lore wise for the orks.

 

Ullanor has showed us there is more to Ork evolution to be acheived.

 

A "prime - ork" or " Beast"

In truth there was not a single Warboss known as The Beast. Rather, they were a collection of six "Prime-Orks", monstrously powerful and intelligent Warbosses who each commanded a "Legion" (possibly Clan) of Greenskins

 

the similarities to Ghaz now are inline with the above sentence.

- ghaz was sited all over the galaxy in short time peroids leading massive waaghs and winning wars

- IMperials thought this to be errors referring to multiple different wagh warboss as ghaz

 

- my specualtion

- to become a "Beast/Warboss" the fungus (ghaz) doubles itself a few times.

- Each of these duplicates IS GHAZ, it is a perfect duplicate of the original. Each duplicate gains the waagh power from each one.

- Thus 6-8 ghaz's running around the galaxy with each there own massive waagh all feeing into the Ghaz power matrix circuit.

- Then they become "the beast"

 

what we know so far.

 

Ork evolution chart:

 

1.Fungus

2.Boys

3.Nobz

4.Oddboys

5.Warboss

-new ullanor lore, Im making up these names as I dont think they had names

6. War Boyz (the size of warbosses)

7. War Nobz (above warboss size)

8. Prime-orks/beast ( at or above primarch size, even deamon primach in size)

This isn't really how it works - different sizes of Orks are not different species, they are just Orks that got bigger from fighting a lot. A boy can become a nob and then a Warboss, but he can't become an odd boy, they are just spored that way. Also Boy/Nob/Warboss aren't size catagories, they are ranks. A boy who is the size of a Warboss, for whatever reason, is still a boy if he's not strong enough to take control for himself. Orks are not like Pokemon, where they suddenly get bigger and stronger in one transformation from boy to Nob - they just bulk up from lots of fighting until they are beefy enough to bash some heads and tell other Orks what to do.

 

I do like the idea of there being loads of Ghazghkulls running around - maybe to allow us to take one regardless of klan restrictions like the Tyranid 'characters'. Either because he's so powerful that Gork and Mork just decide to make more of him, or Orkimedies got hold of some cloning technology, or just because it's a generic name imperials give to all terrifyingly huge warbosses.

[Kaldoth]

I honestly just want a Plastic Warboss kit.  The sculpts we have aren't bad in my opinion.  They're quite detailed and Orky.  Its the lack of customization options that bothers me. 

 

Oh, and if my Chinork could get an increase in BS (or a shooty rule that boosts their hit like with the Dakkajet) and the open topped rule, that'd be fantastic :D 

Alsoooo, letting Spanners repair while inside vehicles, and letting them repair Chinorks while embarked would be awesome.  Imagine a unit of Burna boyz flying around in an Open topped Chinork with a Spanner to keep it in the air.  That would be a dream come true ^_^

[Aothaine]

I think it is important to keep in mind that GW is reaching out to the community to help build codices that the player base will be proud of. My suggestion is to work together and create a document that offers suggestions to GW. They are asking you as the player base to do this. The only way you'll be completely ignored is if you do nothing. 

 

B&C is a great community. You just need one person to take up the mantle and start a post, keep it updated, and provide that information to the GW facebook page. They are listening.

[Guest Triszin]

Would be nice to see an original "Kork" get loose from tarzyns prison and he ends up a character for the orks.

[Redtoof]

I think it is important to keep in mind that GW is reaching out to the community to help build codices that the player base will be proud of. My suggestion is to work together and create a document that offers suggestions to GW. They are asking you as the player base to do this. The only way you'll be completely ignored is if you do nothing. 

 

B&C is a great community. You just need one person to take up the mantle and start a post, keep it updated, and provide that information to the GW facebook page. They are listening.

This is a good sentiment, but I'd be very surprised if the Ork codex hasn't been largely written already.

[warburni]

I think the lore is going to be very interesting. Since the last codex, we’ve had the Beast series which came with a lot of Ork lore additions. Obviously Prime Orks have been mentioned a lot but there’s also the fact that Ullanor is Armageddon. This plus the more detailed info on what Gaz was up to in Octarius (from the Gaz codex) AND all the DI advancements, mean there’s a potential for lots of new and hopefully interesting lore. Looking forward to it!

[HeresyBeliever]

Clan rules are tough to think of:

Extra attack in combat

+ 1 to hit rolls maybe

advance and charge no WAAAAGH maybe,

+1/2 on movement speed freaks or fixed 6 rather than roll on advance.  

 

But who do they effect? I hope they effect infantry, bikes, Kans and dreff dreads. 

 

Stratagems:

Double advance 2CP

Attack again 2CP

Shoot again 1CP

some form of sneaky sneaky deep strike infantry units 1-3CP

D3 Mek auto repair 1CP

+1 to cover even in the open 1 CP

 

 

What I want to see / could easily see:

Burners to be D6 not D3

Kill kannon D6 auto hits

Kustom Blasters auto hits 1 - D3- D6

Orks ignoring negatives to hit 

Warboss - re-roll 1's to hit combat

Big Mek - re-roll 1's to hit shooting

Kans to move 8" and not subject to moral

Kans point Drop 

Deff dreads to move 8"

Def Dread Points drop + 2 x Attacks

Gork/Mork  BS 4+

Warbuggies BS 4+ Maybe a pointed tech upgrade 5pts

Stompa 750 points or 800 with a 2+ save and T9! maybe a point upgrade for 5+ invol (build in shield) Yes has 40 wounds but 3 las predators can easily take a lot of them turn one

Stompa BS 4+ 

Flash gits HQ guy - re-roll all shooting misses

Points drop of the Defkopta

 

New Models:

New multi pose Warboss with Claw and Choppa options 

New war buggy / War trakk

Defkopta they could just release the easy build plastic model at £20 for 3  

Plastic Kommandos / tank buster box set

[Aothaine]

Lets talk about this idea of Orks ignoring negative to hit modifiers. I could totally agree with this if Orks only hit on a 6 on the dice. But they hit on 5+ don't they?

 

Perhaps there could be a stratagem that specifically allows them to ignore negatives to hit but for every 6 rolled they score a hit against every visible unit?

[Warhead01]

I don't know I don't really like it but I'm sure if I needed to use it I would spend the CP's on it. I am not  fan of rolling a 6 for a bonus of anything. But if that was as good as it got I'd use it.

[Guest Triszin]

Lets talk about this idea of Orks ignoring negative to hit modifiers. I could totally agree with this if Orks only hit on a 6 on the dice. But they hit on 5+ don't they?

 

Perhaps there could be a stratagem that specifically allows them to ignore negatives to hit but for every 6 rolled they score a hit against every visible unit?

could do a strategem that for every missed shot they get 1 reroll per initial shot.

 

call it dakka dakka

[Warhead01]

 

Lets talk about this idea of Orks ignoring negative to hit modifiers. I could totally agree with this if Orks only hit on a 6 on the dice. But they hit on 5+ don't they?

 

Perhaps there could be a stratagem that specifically allows them to ignore negatives to hit but for every 6 rolled they score a hit against every visible unit?

could do a strategem that for every missed shot they get 1 reroll per initial shot.

 

call it dakka dakka

 

They have a Dakka Dakka already. But how about +1 to hit for ever CP spent on the stratagem. Up to +4 to hit.