Blackstone

[Wargamer]

They might be examples of the Eldar turning Necron technology against the Necrons, similar to how Necrons use Dolman Gates.

[Battybattybats]

It's also possible that the Blackstone Fortresses were made by the Old Ones or an alliance of the Old Ones creations to fight the C'tan/Necrons. The heavily mythologized story of the Swords of Vaul could represent a host of things... Though there were 99 'swords' and one flawed unfinished one thrown in when the time was up. Only 6 Blackstone Fortresses are accounted for. Only one is known to remain, in the hands of the Red Corsairs. So were the rest destroyed in the War In Heaven? Or are there more out there somewhere?

 

Also, there's been more info released about Blackstone from GW and leaked from Forgebane (the Quarry Worlds page) alas I'm currently on my finicky phone and can't post it here, can someone please share it, in spoiler tags please.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm sure the loss of most of them was accounted for in the BFG rulebook. I also seem to remember Eldrad Ulthran stealing one back during a black crusade?

[Battybattybats]

The BFG background accounted for the remaining out of the known 6 that were still in Imperial hands, when Abbaddon took his two into the Eye the ones the Imperials had turned into Navy stations mysteriously self-destructed, but we don't know if that was all that were left or if unfound ones also self destructed.

 

As for Eldrad stealing one back, getting the possessing demon out and sacrificing his life in the process (and having the shattered bits of his crystalline body flung through the warp to 1970's Britain to be found by the 4th Dr and Sarah Jane Smith, the latter to be possessed and wander around saying "Eldrad Must Live") that's all been retconned along with the rest of the original version of the 13th Black Crusade. If course they may redo that later with Huron Blackhearts' remaining Blackstone Fortress though now he's in plastic I doubt he'll be killed off again.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

They retconned it? Although, that does explain why, now I think about it, why the 13th Crusade was happening both when I left and returned to the hobby after ten years...

[Battybattybats]

Yep, the 13th crusade is a bit different now, blame the time meddling machinations of Tzeench or the Ordo Chronos for it. For now Eldrad lives, and got very involved in the new Eldar Death God mess that's been a big part of the changes. I expect he'll get involved in Blackstone again soon.

[Leif Bearclaw]

It's also possible that the Blackstone Fortresses were made by the Old Ones or an alliance of the Old Ones creations to fight the C'tan/Necrons. The heavily mythologized story of the Swords of Vaul could represent a host of things... Though there were 99 'swords' and one flawed unfinished one thrown in when the time was up. Only 6 Blackstone Fortresses are accounted for. Only one is known to remain, in the hands of the Red Corsairs. So were the rest destroyed in the War In Heaven? Or are there more out there somewhere?

 

Also, there's been more info released about Blackstone from GW and leaked from Forgebane (the Quarry Worlds page) alas I'm currently on my finicky phone and can't post it here, can someone please share it, in spoiler tags please.

That isn't what the Blackstones are though. Those 100 swords were the deal Vaul made with Khaine to free Isha (iirc), leading to general mythic bad things among the Eldar pantheon. Nothing to do with Necrons. Just a shame GW have used the same term to refer to 2 different ancient events (as it'd take some hefty mental gymnastics/bad writing to make the 2 Wars in Heaven the same thing).

 

The Eldar call the Blackstones the Talismans of Vaul (unless that's been retconned too), not swords. And as far as I'm aware there's never been any indication that there were more than 6 Blackstones.

 

But then, 'Blackstone' as the new Phlebotinium plot substance kinda bugs me anyway.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Both different things made by Vaul, the Eldar god of the Forge.

[Tyriks]

Both different things made by Vaul, the Eldar god of the Forge.

That's assuming that Eldar mythology represents real in-game history. The Blackstone Fortresses possibly pre-date the Eldar themselves.

[Red_Shift]

I thought the Blackstones were made to fight the ctan, warp energy being about the only thing that could harm them. It's why nightbringers ship was hijacked and placed in the warp, he can't get it back now.

 

I'd prefer Blackstone to stay in the background. At most swords or shields for the Templars . The cadian pylons were always a cool concept.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I thought the Blackstones were made to fight the ctan, warp energy being about the only thing that could harm them. It's why nightbringers ship was hijacked and placed in the warp, he can't get it back now.

 

I'd prefer Blackstone to stay in the background. At most swords or shields for the Templars . The cadian pylons were always a cool concept.

Yes, but that was before the 5th ed retcon of the Necrons and C'tan, it didn't really gel with the new fluff of the C'tan betrayed and turned into pokemon imo. Not to say that fluff was bad per se, but it did render pretty much all the old foreshadowing pointless. Which is partly why I don't like the current Blackstone thing. It seems to be focussing the fluff around an ugly stitch where alternate versions of 40k have been crudely spliced together.

[Tyriks]

 

I thought the Blackstones were made to fight the ctan, warp energy being about the only thing that could harm them. It's why nightbringers ship was hijacked and placed in the warp, he can't get it back now.

I'd prefer Blackstone to stay in the background. At most swords or shields for the Templars . The cadian pylons were always a cool concept.

 

Yes, but that was before the 5th ed retcon of the Necrons and C'tan, it didn't really gel with the new fluff of the C'tan betrayed and turned into pokemon imo. Not to say that fluff was bad per se, but it did render pretty much all the old foreshadowing pointless. Which is partly why I don't like the current Blackstone thing. It seems to be focussing the fluff around an ugly stitch where alternate versions of 40k have been crudely spliced together.

Literally none of that conflicts. The Blackstone Fortresses would have been built before the sundering of the C'tan so nothing about it would be different.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

I thought the Blackstones were made to fight the ctan, warp energy being about the only thing that could harm them. It's why nightbringers ship was hijacked and placed in the warp, he can't get it back now.

I'd prefer Blackstone to stay in the background. At most swords or shields for the Templars . The cadian pylons were always a cool concept.

Yes, but that was before the 5th ed retcon of the Necrons and C'tan, it didn't really gel with the new fluff of the C'tan betrayed and turned into pokemon imo. Not to say that fluff was bad per se, but it did render pretty much all the old foreshadowing pointless. Which is partly why I don't like the current Blackstone thing. It seems to be focussing the fluff around an ugly stitch where alternate versions of 40k have been crudely spliced together.

Literally none of that conflicts. The Blackstone Fortresses would have been built before the sundering of the C'tan so nothing about it would be different.

 

Except they weren't. The original Necron fluff does not mention the Blackstones at all during the 'War in Heaven' history, and specifically notes the Fortresses were built to 'destroy the C'tan if they rose again', which implies the Talismen were a safeguard built after the C'tan and Necrons were in stasis, rather than an actively employed weapon during the war. That doesn't really gel with the new Necron rebellion fluff, both in that the Cron/C'tan flat out won the war, rather than it peetering out amongst the Enslaver incursion (why would the victorious Necrons leave such powerful enemy weapons intact?) and the way the Crons couldn't kill the C'tan, only shatter and pokeball them. Which is weird if the Old Ones were employing C'tan killing weapons during the war, you'd think the Crons would be able to come up with an analogue (or just use the Talismen in their rebellion), given their tech superiority and proven ability to utilise/repurpose Old One tech, like the Dolmen Gates (a bad changes in the newCron fluff over the old inertialess drives, but I digress).

[Marshal Loss]

Love the idea of having some kind of reboot/retconned Necron Pariahs made out of the stuff. I miss those guys.

[Tyriks]

 

 

 

I thought the Blackstones were made to fight the ctan, warp energy being about the only thing that could harm them. It's why nightbringers ship was hijacked and placed in the warp, he can't get it back now.

I'd prefer Blackstone to stay in the background. At most swords or shields for the Templars . The cadian pylons were always a cool concept.

 

Yes, but that was before the 5th ed retcon of the Necrons and C'tan, it didn't really gel with the new fluff of the C'tan betrayed and turned into pokemon imo. Not to say that fluff was bad per se, but it did render pretty much all the old foreshadowing pointless. Which is partly why I don't like the current Blackstone thing. It seems to be focussing the fluff around an ugly stitch where alternate versions of 40k have been crudely spliced together.

Literally none of that conflicts. The Blackstone Fortresses would have been built before the sundering of the C'tan so nothing about it would be different.

Except they weren't. The original Necron fluff does not mention the Blackstones at all during the 'War in Heaven' history, and specifically notes the Fortresses were built to 'destroy the C'tan if they rose again', which implies the Talismen were a safeguard built after the C'tan and Necrons were in stasis, rather than an actively employed weapon during the war. That doesn't really gel with the new Necron rebellion fluff, both in that the Cron/C'tan flat out won the war, rather than it peetering out amongst the Enslaver incursion (why would the victorious Necrons leave such powerful enemy weapons intact?) and the way the Crons couldn't kill the C'tan, only shatter and pokeball them. Which is weird if the Old Ones were employing C'tan killing weapons during the war, you'd think the Crons would be able to come up with an analogue (or just use the Talismen in their rebellion), given their tech superiority and proven ability to utilise/repurpose Old One tech, like the Dolmen Gates (a bad changes in the newCron fluff over the old inertialess drives, but I digress).

That doesn't mean the forts would have been capable of destroying a C'tan. Also, at least some C'tan were in fact killed by Necrons. We don't know if the Necrons used the forts or not. We have almost zero information about what exactly went down through all of this, so there is no conflicting information. At the very worst, you only have hypotheses that don't agree.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

That doesn't mean the forts would have been capable of destroying a C'tan. Also, at least some C'tan were in fact killed by Necrons. We don't know if the Necrons used the forts or not. We have almost zero information about what exactly went down through all of this, so there is no conflicting information. At the very worst, you only have hypotheses that don't agree.

 

You're moving the goalposts here. You've gone from 'they must have been built before the Necron rebellion' (Interesting side note, Imperial attempts to date them all produced 300,000 years old at the oldest. While obviously in-universe estimates, if they were even ballpark accurate would put construction well after the Necrons went into stasis) to 'they wouldn't work for their intended purpose anyway', which is a completely unsubstantiated point, as the old Necron lore specifically states the purpose of the Talismen was to destroy the C'tan, and there's no implication anywhere that this was incorrect (especially in light of the Deceiver's machinations to get them away from the Eldar).

 

But if the Blackstones are retconned into 'never really were a threat to the C'tan anyway' that further supports my initial point, that the two versions of Necron fluff are a particularly bad seam in the messy, often self contradictory, 40k fluff, and it'd be better if GW don't deliberately pull on that thread. Hell, with the current moves towards Blackstone's role in the new fluff, I'm fully expecting the retcon that they Fortresses were actually some form of pylon tech, to tame/close the warp, rather than warp-based anti C'tan weapons. Which was exactly my point. The Blackstone Fortresses as Eldar built anti-C'tan weapons doesn't really gel imo with the newCron fluff, and this disconnect (or need for additional retcons) seems to be getting stronger with Blackstone becoming an important plot device.

 

As far as 'dead' C'tan, the only one I'm aware of in the new fluff is the Flayer dude, who seems to have been a unique case (and even then brought forth the Flayed One curse upon his killers, so that wasn't a particularly 'clean' kill). So I wouldn't really rely on that as proof the Necrons were readily able to kill the C'tan during their rebellion. Again, the extreme difficulties the Necrons had in their rebellion against the C'tan suggests to me that the wasn't a ready supply of C'tan killing weaponry around, either of Old One or Necron origin, otherwise the pokeballing wouldn't have been the method used in an overwhelming majority of cases.

[Tyriks]

I have not moved my goalposts. I was responding to your points. I also never said that they wouldn't work, you are twisting what I said. I said that if your claim was true about their age and purpose it wouldn't guarantee they work. The old Necron lore is irrelevant as it isn't true anymore. This is not a conflict in the fluff, it is a change.

 

I never said the Necrons were "readily able" to kill C'tans or that they killed many, or that it was a clean kill. This, again, is you changing what I wrote. I simply wrote that they were able in at least some extreme circumstance to kill one.

 

The fact that the C'tan are shattered is not evidence that the Blackstone Fortresses didn't exist. That's an assumption. The Necrons might not be able to use them in this capacity. They might have been lost or otherwise inaccessible. They might not have known they could do that. So, once again, there isn't any actual conflict here, we just don't know what happened.

 

Having Eldar build them 300,000 years ago to kill things that haven't been seen in 60 million years makes much less sense than having them built during a war to kill the things they are at war with.

 

Finally, they've already said the Blackstone Fortresses are the opposite of Pylons. Warhammer Community just said this last week. They described them as weapons that amplify the warp around them. If they decide to retcon this, it won't likely be anytime soon.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I have not moved my goalposts. I was responding to your points. I also never said that they wouldn't work, you are twisting what I said.

 

 

No I'm not. You responded to my quote stating that the Talismen were build to destroy C'tan with "That doesn't mean the forts would have been capable of destroying a C'tan". Where's the twisting? It's possible that both the ancient Eldar and Deceiver were wrong, and the Blackstones would never have worked, but that's speculation completely without evidence.

 

 

I never said the Necrons were "readily able" to kill C'tans or that they killed many, or that it was a clean kill. This, again, is you changing what I wrote. I simply wrote that they were able in at least some extreme circumstance to kill one.

No, you said that some were killed. I responded with the only one I'm aware of, and why one, apparently unique instance doesn't not infer the use of C'tan killing weaponry by the Old Ones during the war. So the death of the Flayer does not suggest the Blackstones were used during the war, and given the available evidence (barring new fluff I'm not aware of) the Blackstones as a pre-Fall Eldar creation is more likely than a War in Heaven Old Ones creation.

 

 

The old Necron lore is irrelevant as it isn't true anymore.

I know. That's how this exchange started.

 

For reference:

 

 

I thought the Blackstones were made to fight the ctan, warp energy being about the only thing that could harm them. It's why nightbringers ship was hijacked and placed in the warp, he can't get it back now.

I'd prefer Blackstone to stay in the background. At most swords or shields for the Templars . The cadian pylons were always a cool concept.

Yes, but that was before the 5th ed retcon of the Necrons and C'tan, it didn't really gel with the new fluff of the C'tan betrayed and turned into pokemon imo. Not to say that fluff was bad per se, but it did render pretty much all the old foreshadowing pointless. Which is partly why I don't like the current Blackstone thing. It seems to be focussing the fluff around an ugly stitch where alternate versions of 40k have been crudely spliced together.

The 'new' (now surprisingly old) Necron fluff did render pretty much all the old foreshadowing pointless, like the Deceiver's machinations, the Pariah gene, the Necron Harvests and the Great Plan to seal the warp away from realspace permanently, thanks to the fundamental change in the C'tan, from Gods to Shards. But they've kept the Blackstones around, and now tied them directly with the pylons and the ongoing warp shenanigans. I've tried to explain why keeping the Blackstones as anti-C'tan weapons doesn't really fit with the new fluff imo, as well as keeping the spotlight on the remnants of one of the largest retcons 40k has seen. So all this stuff about Blackstone kinda feels to me like bits of the oldCron fluff are bleeding through into the world of the newCron, and I'd rather they not do that, as the two sets of Necron fluff are pretty different, and not really worth trying to get in synch.

[Battybattybats]

Of course we only saw Fortresses activated when Abbaddon had set them to chaos-positive polarization, the rest of the time they were set to inactive, neutral.

 

We only saw Pylons set to chaos-negative polarization, or rendered inert through smashing.

 

If Cawl's notions are correct then each could have been set to the other setting, but what would a chaos-negative Fortress and chaos-positive pylon do?

 

Also this sets up an opportunity for Cawl or another to do an epic 3rd Doctor "Reverse The Polarity" last minute win at some point which I think would be brilliant in a revived old trope kind of way.

[Tyriks]

 

I have not moved my goalposts. I was responding to your points. I also never said that they wouldn't work, you are twisting what I said.

 

 

No I'm not. You responded to my quote stating that the Talismen were build to destroy C'tan with "That doesn't mean the forts would have been capable of destroying a C'tan". Where's the twisting? It's possible that both the ancient Eldar and Deceiver were wrong, and the Blackstones would never have worked, but that's speculation completely without evidence.

 

It has exactly the same amount of evidence as what you've asserted.  I never said that it was the case, but that it is a possibility.  What I have said is that we do not know exactly what happened, so we cannot claim that the Blackstone Fortresses were not around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never said the Necrons were "readily able" to kill C'tans or that they killed many, or that it was a clean kill. This, again, is you changing what I wrote. I simply wrote that they were able in at least some extreme circumstance to kill one.

No, you said that some were killed. I responded with the only one I'm aware of, and why one, apparently unique instance doesn't not infer the use of C'tan killing weaponry by the Old Ones during the war. So the death of the Flayer does not suggest the Blackstones were used during the war, and given the available evidence (barring new fluff I'm not aware of) the Blackstones as a pre-Fall Eldar creation is more likely than a War in Heaven Old Ones creation.

Because some were killed.  We are told one was likely killed.  We do not definitively know that he was the only one; it seems likely, but again, it is not certain.  It's not even certain the Flayer was killed (5th ed codex says, "It is said that the Flayer was not merely splintered  as were his brothers, but utterly obliterated." Emphasis mine).  So some were killed.  The "available evidence" is no evidence.  This is an argument from silence and it is not persuasive.  As I have said, there are many possible reasons the Necrons might not have used the fortresses, and indeed no reason to think anything could definitively kill a C'tan since they are "immortal star-spawn, part of the fundamental fabric of actuality and therefore nigh impossible to destroy."  Since we have no solid information on the subject, we can't rule any of those explanations out.  It's possible the Fortresses were built later, but GW themselves have hinted that this isn't the case and there's nowhere near enough "evidence" to make a solid claim otherwise. In this article, GW implies that the Blackstone constructs we know of are linked to the Old Ones and Necrons.  Again, it isn't definite, but they did intentionally link the two.  

 

 

 

The 'new' (now surprisingly old) Necron fluff did render pretty much all the old foreshadowing pointless, like the Deceiver's machinations, the Pariah gene, the Necron Harvests and the Great Plan to seal the warp away from realspace permanently, thanks to the fundamental change in the C'tan, from Gods to Shards. But they've kept the Blackstones around, and now tied them directly with the pylons and the ongoing warp shenanigans. I've tried to explain why keeping the Blackstones as anti-C'tan weapons doesn't really fit with the new fluff imo, as well as keeping the spotlight on the remnants of one of the largest retcons 40k has seen. So all this stuff about Blackstone kinda feels to me like bits of the oldCron fluff are bleeding through into the world of the newCron, and I'd rather they not do that, as the two sets of Necron fluff are pretty different, and not really worth trying to get in synch.

 

But they really aren't different.  The only thing that has changed for Necrons is who is calling the shots.  The C'tan were, but now the top tier of Overlords is instead.  The history is the same up until the conclusion of the War in Heaven, and then again since then.  They originally were psychically vulnerable soulless robots that hate life and can't think for themselves, and now they are... psychically vulnerable soulless robots that hate life and can't think for themselves, with a few exceptions.  Either way, a technologically and psychically advanced race was at war with them for millions of years and sought out weapons to make them vulnerable, so having the Blackstone Fortresses be those weapons is not "keeping the spotlight" on anything.  By that argument, might as well cut the C'tan altogether since it draws attention to what they no longer are.  

[Aramis K]

Whoever made the Blackstone fortresses, and I think the Eldar only adopted them, I only just noticed they form the chaos 8 arrow star when viewed from above.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I always assumed Vaul was an Old One.

[Battybattybats]

Whoever made the Blackstone fortresses, and I think the Eldar only adopted them, I only just noticed they form the chaos 8 arrow star when viewed from above.

That's when 'activated' in the BFG lore, the inactive ones are in a four pointed star configuration. I put magnets in mine so I could set it in both.

[Battybattybats]

Turns out the upcoming Mechanicus videogame will include Blackstone. Watch Chapter Master Valrak's most recent video on the game for the mention.

[Trevak Dal]

in addition there is also a INquisitor that joined the tau empire and pilots a crisis suit now,

Uh...well we found out what Matt Ward has been doing.