Speculation & spoilers regarding The Magos, Pariah etc

[Moonreaper666]

Unless Valdor destroyed Ulthwé, Alaitoc and three other Craftworlds he failed in his task

 

The Inquisition, Eldar and Traitors would each have killed him regardless of how much it cost

 

The Chaos Gods would have stop him just like they did with the Emperor...

 

...or subvert his plans just like how they did with the Emperor

[Guest Triszin]

On end of death and pandemonium...

My own thoughts.

 

Spoiler

I believe pandemonium will be out 6-14~ months after end of death part 2.

 

I think pandemonium will have direct line of sight from end of death part 2 to present 40k. (As I think the book will end with valdor emerging in present 40k along with someone else).

 

My own thoughts on the emperor in current 40k is the emperor is split mentally and Russ/Russ's spear will come into play.

How?

Well.

My own crazy thoughts.

 

Step 1.

Valdor is trying to seal and fortify the breach in the webway. Allowing emps to leave it for a short while.

 

Step 2.

"Healing" the emperors body at this point is potentially pointless as he is ascending  into god hood, but there is still likely a mechsnism to it. If the theory about the astartes genephage being

Against emps, well we need Isha /tree of life to counter it.

 

Russ freeing isha.

Isha arriving in pandemonium and disarming the massive eldar fleet and emerging with them in 40k.

 

Step 3.

Healing the emperor mentally is the big one, you need to do it as he ascends/right before.

How?

There's only one thing I know of in Warhammer that has a chance to do it.

Some the emperor made.

 

Russ's spear. Emps will have to get stabbed by Russ's spear, and it will show truth to the emperor. It will force him to come to terms with what he is and ascend him into the imperial god that isnt fractured.

 

The thing is, emps as a full god wouldn't really change the great game much.

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Triszin

[EverythingIsGreat]

Good day,

 

Question: did I miss something and the Star Child idea is now/again canonical? The last time I came upon this was the Jaq Draco "Inquisition War" series, and I thought the concept was given the Emperor's peace.

 

Side note: Inquisitor Czevak was also interested in reanimating the Emperor using Aeldari methods. According to that novel series he's bounding about in M42, with a map of the Webway made by the Imperial Webway Project Mechanicus Adepts. May be useful.

Edited March 12, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
miispelling

[Knockagh]

That Inquisitor Czevak novel was superb. 

[System Sound]

6 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Question: did I miss something and the Star Child idea is now/again canonical? The last time I came upon this was the Jaq Draco "Inquisition War" series, and I thought the concept was given the Emperor's peace.

Its been brought up in one of the Dawn of FIre series novels. Throne of Light was it?

 

11 minutes ago, Knockagh said:

That Inquisitor Czevak novel was superb. 

Probably one of my favourite BL novels. Its insane and fun.

[Felix Antipodes]

Draco and Czevak, two of my favourite =][= from the BL vaults.  Would that they could return to the written page [sigh]

[DukeLeto69]

9 hours ago, Knockagh said:

That Inquisitor Czevak novel was superb. 

Interesting. Horses for courses but I HATED it. To me it felt like a Dr Who story rather than W40k.

[DarkChaplain]

17 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Good day,

 

Question: did I miss something and the Star Child idea is now/again canonical? The last time I came upon this was the Jaq Draco "Inquisition War" series, and I thought the concept was given the Emperor's peace.

 

As stated by System Sound, it's a reveal in Dawn of Fire. There are a lot of psykers in Throne of Light who are getting the memo of the star child and the original cult is even brought up by the Inquisitor involved. The Word Bearers aren't too happy about it. Things are definitely moving on that front!

[EverythingIsGreat]

Thank you all. I will have to take a look. The Star Child story in Ian Watson's books was quite elaborate, among other things the Inquisition (or a faction of it) was hunting down the Sensei (biological sons of the Emperor who may have been a background prototype for the perpetuals later). That was M39 IIRC.

[DarkChaplain]

Here's the specific section building the bridge to the ancient fluff, from the last chapters of Throne of Light. The subject runs through the entire thing, and I find it well worth reading, so if you plan to read it yourself, it might be worth saving it for then:

 

Spoiler

Quote

‘It was as Adept Rumagoi said. A sense of immanence. A sense of overwhelming power. There are multiple references to a winged figure seated on a throne. That figure stands. I’m no expert in the warp but I can take a guess at what that might mean.’

‘I have seen this too. At the end there, when the choir began to speak as one. They said, “He is coming.”’

‘Is it…’ said Fabian. His mouth was inexplicably dry. He could not bring himself to voice the thought. ‘Is it Him?’

‘That is the question, is it not?’ Rostov shifted decisively in his chair, leaning in, the action of a man who has taken an important decision. ‘I will tell you something few people know. Some time ago, there was a notable action undertaken by a pair of inquisitors named Alexio and Fortez, a successful endeavour. Despite the fact that the pair of them had diametrically opposing views on many matters of philosophy, they deemed this particular threat so great they combined forces.

‘The target of this action was a group named the Cult of the Star Child. There was fanciful talk among this cult that the Star Child was some kind of benevolent entity that would lead mankind to salvation, perhaps an expression of the Emperor, god made flesh again. It was all lies, and the cult was rooted out, and destroyed at a gathering on Levilnor IV with the aid of the Salamanders Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. However, four of their leaders escaped.’

‘Why are you telling me this?’

‘Because I wonder if this evil is seeping back into the universe.’ Rostov turned his glass around in his gloved hands. ‘Belief is a very dangerous thing.’

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

18 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

Here's the specific section building the bridge to the ancient fluff, from the last chapters of Throne of Light. The subject runs through the entire thing, and I find it well worth reading, so if you plan to read it yourself, it might be worth saving it for then:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

The temptation was too great :), and in any case spoilers are not spoiling it for me, I will still read the book.

From that spoiler I get that the Star Child (and by implication the Sensei) part of the lore hasn’t changed since the first ever BL novel series. It’s still heresy.

The concept is interesting, and may see further development. Gamewise, the Star Child attribute had prominent treatment in the 2nd Realm of Chaos volume, (The Lost and the Damned, 1990) the early WH40K/WFB game supplement. The obvious reason imo was the fact that the related Sensei (immortal sons of the Emperor, and psychic blanks) were an army list (the Sensei Adventurer Band) with its own distinct rules and weapons. The pertinent info is in pages 184-192. I don’t know if the spoiler rules apply to these gamebooks, I can quote some info if anyone wants it.

[Moonreaper666]

Valdor's plan ends in failure since the Three Inquisitor Protagonists are Expendable to the setting

 

Besides, he can't stop five Craftworlds

[Moonreaper666]

I think Chaos drove Valdor mad and desperate enough to do the unthinkable

[DukeLeto69]

15 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

I think Chaos drove Valdor mad and desperate enough to do the unthinkable

I think you are going to be disappointed. Abnett is tricksy. What you think you know having read Penitent will not be what actually is happening. Pandaemonium will have more twists than a game of twister!

On 3/14/2023 at 3:05 PM, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

The temptation was too great :), and in any case spoilers are not spoiling it for me, I will still read the book.

From that spoiler I get that the Star Child (and by implication the Sensei) part of the lore hasn’t changed since the first ever BL novel series. It’s still heresy.

The concept is interesting, and may see further development. Gamewise, the Star Child attribute had prominent treatment in the 2nd Realm of Chaos volume, (The Lost and the Damned, 1990) the early WH40K/WFB game supplement. The obvious reason imo was the fact that the related Sensei (immortal sons of the Emperor, and psychic blanks) were an army list (the Sensei Adventurer Band) with its own distinct rules and weapons. The pertinent info is in pages 184-192. I don’t know if the spoiler rules apply to these gamebooks, I can quote some info if anyone wants it.

Yes please (in spoiler tags)

[Moonreaper666]

1 hour ago, DukeLeto69 said:

I think you are going to be disappointed. Abnett is tricksy. What you think you know having read Penitent will not be what actually is happening. Pandaemonium will have more twists than a game of twister!

Yes please (in spoiler tags)

 

Have you read Vol 1 of Teatd? I feel that the Siege's Finale will lead up to both the Black Legion and Inquisitor Novels

 

Valdor embodies the spirit and dark side of the Inquisition post-Heresy

[EverythingIsGreat]

2 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Yes please (in spoiler tags)

 

From Realm of Chaos: The Lost & The Damned by Rick Priestley and Bryan Ansell, 1990 (and a bunch of others). This second/companion volume of the supplement to both WH40K and WFB concentrates on the Nurgle and Tzeentch factions, and armies/scenarios based on them.

 

In the book, the “Star Child” chapter/section follows the Emperor/Horus duel by William King, which had already been published earlier.

 

The following is only my opinion of what is relevant. Please feel free to add material or point out what I may have missed.

 

Spoiler

1. In the intro it is stated that the Emperor was at a disadvantage because he was still at depth, human while “Horus had shed the last vestiges of humanity”. Horus was “aided” by the Chaos Powers.

 

2. Just as Horus had been corrupted, even the Emperor run the risk of perversion by contact with Chaos. However, the Emperor “was the embodiment of the uncorrupted warp”.

 

3. To defeat Horus the Emperor “drew upon the energies of the warp as he had never done before”. Then as he plunged his sword into Horus, “the energy of the warp flowed through the Emperor, down his sword and into Horus”. But, “the Emperor had over extended his own powers” because noone “could act as the vessel for so much power and survive.”

 

4. As the Emperor was dying “his psychic energy ebbed from his body. The immortality <snip> was no more and the weight of age descended upon [his body]” to become a “shriveled mummy-like thing.” His psychic power (soul) “was cast adrift upon the tides of the warp <snip> until such time as it was ready to be reborn.” Chaos was constantly hunting for it but couldn’t find it because the Emperor “was at one with the whole warp, so his soul melted into it and so remained hidden from the Chaos Powers.”

 

5. The Golden Throne is degrading with time. The link between the Emperor’s body and his soul in the warp is increasingly tenuous. “Worse of all, the Powers of Chaos have begum to infiltrate his mind, sowing seeds of doubt, dissolution and fear.”

 

6. The Emperor’s soul may be reborn far in the future, when calls for a savior would strengthen its core and rekindle it into a new life. “Meanwhile the soul of the Emperor was merely a potential, a child awaiting birth, the Star Child.”

 

7. The Imperium is ignorant of this and the concept of the Emperor’s rebirth is alien to it. The Illuminati (humans who had contact with Chaos and emerged in control, sane and intact) are the very few individuals who know this. They “await the birth of the Star Child and the second coming of the New Man.” (The Emperor-persona being the first coming, presumably). Obviously all this is heresy as far as the Imperium is concerned.

 

Have to take a break here, will follow on another post with some things on the Sensei.

Edited March 21, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[EverythingIsGreat]

As promised, a few more things from Realm of Chaos (RoC) volume 2 (1990), about Sensei/Star Child.

 

Spoiler

The Sensei are descendants of the Emperor, or descendants of the Emperor’s descendants. Their “genetic structure is similar to his.” However, not all of the Emperor’s descendants are Sensei. Almost none of the Sensei “realise that they carry genes from the Emperor or that it is this which gives them their powers.” They are the Champions of the Star Child, just as Chaos has its own Champions.

 

They are immortal and do not age, while possessing amazing power of recovery. However, they can be killed.

 

The Sensei are protected from Chaos and also “the untainted flow of the warp can move through them unimpeded”. They cannot experience negative, destructive, irrational emotions since these are part of the disharmony of Chaos. “They radiate natural confidence and harmony” and can draw on pure warp energy, but they do not attract daemons because as they “harbour no trace of the emotions and concepts embodied by the Chaos Powers they are largely invisible to them.”

 

Sensei are galaxy-wandering heroes. They are powerful psykers and therefore heretics who risk death at the hands of the Imperium. “They are not so much the enemies of the Imperium as of repression and injustice in all their guises.”

 

“The Star Child represents the human part in the unity of the warp, the flow of psychic energy which permeates all living things”. It bestows gifts of “caring and humane Power” to his Sensei.

 

Sensei can be well over 10000 years old, and they retain youthful optimism and appearance. They are natural rebels. They have the “Mark of the Star Child”, the ability to draw upon the energy of the Star Child in fights.

 

Some other interesting ideas are the Sensei’s “Apotheosis” and the Sensei Master, which is equivalent to a Chaos Champion becoming a Daemon Prince.

 

 

The “Inquisition War” trilogy by Ian Watson (the first Black Library books) really expands on the Star Child/Sensei story and brings it into circa M39. It also draws on Sensei/Illuminati background from the first Realm of Chaos volume (1988).

 

Spoiler

This RoC volume had some interesting angles and ideas on this issue. Including how the Sensei are actively being recruited by the Illuminati, and why neither the Emperor nor them must know the truth about the rebirth of the Star Child.

 

And this being GW, several important details in the first RoC volume (1988) directly contradict the second volume (1990) regarding the Sensei :).

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[EverythingIsGreat]

Just clarifying that

 

Spoiler

The Emperor does/did not know the Sensei exist, either

 

[Taliesin]

Love that lore.

[DukeLeto69]

9 hours ago, Taliesin said:

Love that lore.

I’m mixed on it. It has (for me) serious Karate Kid and Ronin vibes. The Perpetuals are obviously some kind of riff on the same idea. 

[Taliesin]

I also like the idea of the Perpetuals.

[EverythingIsGreat]

6 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

I’m mixed on it. It has (for me) serious Karate Kid and Ronin vibes.

 

I guess nothing exists in a vacuum. Some of the ideas may be over the top, but as background explanation of a small-skirmish-scenario miniatures wargame it was a good effort, and pretty well thought-out, seemingly drawing on a number of sources.

[Moonreaper666]

The way Basilio Fo

 

Spoiler

Inserted doubt into Amon's orders in TEATD

 

is one way Chaos can deceive Valdor

 

Corruption is not the only trick Chaos can pull. Custodes are not immune to mind-control, just corruption

[DukeLeto69]

14 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

The way Basilio Fo

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Inserted doubt into Amon's orders in TEATD

 

is one way Chaos can deceive Valdor

 

Corruption is not the only trick Chaos can pull. Custodes are not immune to mind-control, just corruption

I think you are clutching at chaos straws. We will see when Pandaemonium finally sees the light of day.

[Moonreaper666]

17 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

I think you are clutching at chaos straws. We will see when Pandaemonium finally sees the light of day.

 

Basilio Fo made Amon, a Custode, doubt his orders and sow mistrust between a few Custodes, including Shadow Keepers!

 

Fo is just a mortal, his gene-enhancements did not increase his intelligence only his lifespan

 

Are you saying Tzeentch can't deceive Valdor into a con?