Speculation & spoilers regarding The Magos, Pariah etc

[TrevorLoLz]

On 3/24/2023 at 1:44 PM, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Basilio Fo made Amon, a Custode, doubt his orders and sow mistrust between a few Custodes, including Shadow Keepers!

 

Fo is just a mortal, his gene-enhancements did not increase his intelligence only his lifespan

 

Are you saying Tzeentch can't deceive Valdor into a con?

 

Fo used logic and an understanding of unbending rigid hierarchy to do what he did.  That was the point of the scene - to show that the guy is a genius and expert manipulator. 

 

But it's a dumb scene and effectively suggests that the Custodians are robots incapable of thinking for themselves or deducing clear manipulation from an old man right in front of them with a vested interest in escaping before they execute him.

 

I doubt the takeaway in Pandaemonium will be that Valdor is the unwitting thrall of Tzeentch or any Chaos power.  More likely, if it is actually Valdor, it will be that he's simply gone off the deep end in paranoia and grief trying to undo what he sees as his greatest failing (protecting The Emperor) and has been pulling strings behind the scenes.

[Felix Antipodes]

You can bet that the only reason that dud scene was included is that Abnett has some plan in place where he needed to save Fo from execution.  We will find out in part two I’d imagine.

[Moonreaper666]

20 hours ago, TrevorLoLz said:

 

Fo used logic and an understanding of unbending rigid hierarchy to do what he did.  That was the point of the scene - to show that the guy is a genius and expert manipulator. 

 

But it's a dumb scene and effectively suggests that the Custodians are robots incapable of thinking for themselves or deducing clear manipulation from an old man right in front of them with a vested interest in escaping before they execute him.

 

I doubt the takeaway in Pandaemonium will be that Valdor is the unwitting thrall of Tzeentch or any Chaos power.  More likely, if it is actually Valdor, it will be that he's simply gone off the deep end in paranoia and grief trying to undo what he sees as his greatest failing (protecting The Emperor) and has been pulling strings behind the scenes.

 

Valdor is following the Inquisition cycle post-Heresy. From Puritan to Radical to Heretical

 

The Chaos Gods must be laughing at Valdor's insane plan

 

Valdor's plan will 100% fail. Five Craftworlds is too much for him to stop. Eldar can also call Phoenix Lords to kill him. (I doubt Valdor can beat Jain Zar let alone Three PLs)

 

Keep in mind that Bequin, Eisenhorn and Ravernor CAN DIE since they don't exist in the 13th Black Crusade nor affect it

[b1soul]

To me, that scene shows Amon was not an automaton or slave to authourity. 

 

Amon knows Fo is trying desperately to buy more time, but Amon is still capable of independently judging what he thinks is the most sensible course of action, even if that means asking fellow Custodes for authentication.

‘If that was true [Fo's weapon being incomplete],’ says Amon, ‘Fo would have played that trick already. If he’d left a loophole as insurance, he would have used it. Just now, to evade the Aedile-Marshal. Instead, he was obliged to appeal desperately to my function imperatives.’

- Amon Tauromachian to Andromeda

Terra has already been exposed to Daemonic and AL shenanigans. Asking for authentication while keeping watch over the subject isn't an absurd idea.

 

Yes, Fo ostensibly influenced Amon's actions with his appeals, but that doesn't mean Amon is an oblivious dupe. They're all playing their own games and making their own calculations in that scene.

[Moonreaper666]

1 hour ago, b1soul said:

To me, that scene shows Amon was not an automaton or slave to authourity. 

 

Amon knows Fo is trying desperately to buy more time, but Amon is still capable of independently judging what he thinks is the most sensible course of action, even if that means asking fellow Custodes for authentication.

 

  Hide contents

‘If that was true [Fo's weapon being incomplete],’ says Amon, ‘Fo would have played that trick already. If he’d left a loophole as insurance, he would have used it. Just now, to evade the Aedile-Marshal. Instead, he was obliged to appeal desperately to my function imperatives.’

- Amon Tauromachian to Andromeda
 

 

Terra has already been exposed to Daemonic and AL shenanigans. Asking for authentication while keeping watch over the subject isn't an absurd idea.

 

Yes, Fo ostensibly influenced Amon's actions with his appeals, but that doesn't mean Amon is an oblivious dupe. They're all playing their own games and making their own calculations in that scene.

 

Since Fo can influence Amon why can't Tzeentch or all Four, whom are much more powerful than Chaos Horus, influence Valdor?

 

Spoiler

Horus used literal mind control on several Custodes as well as alter their perceptions

 

Valdor is just ONE Custode

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

Not likely. Chaos cannot corrupt the Emperor. The Emperor cannot dissipate Chaos. The only option left to both is to utterly annihilate each other and they have both failed. So we get an eternal stalemate of sorts, with occasional (ultimately futile) attempts to finish this, and give the hapless actors something to do.

 

And this may be exactly as GW has planned it.

 

Everything is great!

[Moonreaper666]

12 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Not likely. Chaos cannot corrupt the Emperor. The Emperor cannot dissipate Chaos. The only option left to both is to utterly annihilate each other and they have both failed. So we get an eternal stalemate of sorts, with occasional (ultimately futile) attempts to finish this, and give the hapless actors something to do.

 

And this may be exactly as GW has planned it.

 

Everything is great!

 

Valdor is not the Emperor. He is a Custode

 

Horus managed to mindscrew 30 Custodes standing next to Emps

[TrevorLoLz]

8 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Valdor is not the Emperor. He is a Custode

 

Horus managed to mindscrew 30 Custodes standing next to Emps

 

Horus managed to do so in a place that was described in that book, multiple times, as basically the intersection between the Warp and reality.  The Chaos Gods are basically using Horus as a puppet in an area that was practically their domain.

 

The Custodians weren't corrupted - they were forced against their will to do something by someone who was the loci for all 4 Chaos Gods.

 

We many other times throughout the series Custodians up against Chaos and they don't falter.

 

It is possible that Valdor could be influenced, etc.  However, I really don't think that's what the Bequin books have been leading up to - a well-trodden story of someone "corrupted without knowing".

 

 

[b1soul]

The End and the Death proves what I've always thought. No human or transhuman with a soul (except for maybe the Emperor) is categorically immune to Chaos. Under the full weight of the Four, even the Custodes buckled and broke.

 

 

The Emperor came here ready for anything, first-found, so you prepared nothing. Misdirection. He was looking everywhere except at Himself. With His attention held, you reached in and, with formidable sleight of hand, took away His readiness. You took away His focus and determination, from the moment He arrived. You took it from all of us.

The Emperor’s warblade, a brand of white fire, leaves burning magnesium after-streaks in the air.
You took away our keen edge by easing our minds into distraction and puzzlement, into reflection, into random thoughts. You did it with such precision we forgot ourselves. You did it with such concealed domination of will even our master couldn’t sense your mind at work.
Companion Caercil sinks to the deck and slides apart in three pieces, like a perfect puzzle that will never be put back together. 
And then you twisted the pristine souls of the Custodians. Each one of us was painstakingly restructured on a molecular level to withstand the corruption of Chaos, but you took the incorruptible and you broke our minds. You broke the unbreakable.
 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by b1soul

[EverythingIsGreat]

Spoiler

The Custodes were not "corrupted" in the Warhammer Chaos sense. They were influenced, and an attempt was made to control them on a mental level. Some of them succumbed, others successfully resisted. It would be interesting to know what intellectual/brain wiring flaw or characteristic Horus took advantage of. Apparently he thinks his chances against the Emperor are better this way, so he's not totally certain he will be victorious without such tactics.
As for the Emperor, he has no qualms in destroying the Custodes the moment they spoil. Interesting.

 

There are tie-ins to 40K here. If the Custodes can lose control of their faculties, what chance does the average human have? Nicely justifies both the Inquisition principles in 40K, and the Emperor's secrecy re:Chaos in 30K.

Which makes the Grey Knights future background additions a more interesting read. How come their minds have not been taken over since the Heresy? (Their souls being presumably incorruptible) Did they add a special sauce? Did they "fix" the remaining Custodes so that their mind is as immune as the GK's?

We'll see if any of this is explained.

[Arguleon Veq]

Fixing Custodians idea brings up something I have never really considered - how are replacements for the Ten Thousand created? Obviously they have been, but we are told constantly Custodians are painstakingly, individually created artisan level masterpieces by Him

 

Its more for my own internal consistency or perhaps a thought experience I bring this up

[DarkChaplain]

Didn't Wraight bring this up in one of his novels before? I vaguely recall something about Custodes not being quite of the same quality anymore since they were personally raised up by the Emperor.

 

I'd honestly be careful with conflating actual corruption/turning with force-puppeting against their will, though. You can arguably hijack the nerve system of a physical body via psychic powers, but it might not affect the soul within. Corruption, to me, indicates that they are genuinely turned, body and soul, even if they might not fully acknowledge it to themselves.

 

Also, there's precedence for Grey Knights getting mindjacked, too. That's the entire premise of Annandale's short story / audio drama Incorruptible; a space hulk filled with heretics and a supposedly rogue/corrupted Grey Knight aboard it? Turns out he didn't fall to Chaos, he's not with the Heretics, they arrived after.... but he DID get overwhelmed psychically by the Hive Mind / Genestealers. He goes against his own despite struggles to the contrary, but the whole "Grey Knights can't fall to Chaos" thing is still upheld.

[EverythingIsGreat]

2 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

Also, there's precedence for Grey Knights getting mindjacked, too. That's the entire premise of Annandale's short story / audio drama Incorruptible; a space hulk filled with heretics and a supposedly rogue/corrupted Grey Knight aboard it? Turns out he didn't fall to Chaos, he's not with the Heretics, they arrived after.... but he DID get overwhelmed psychically by the Hive Mind / Genestealers. He goes against his own despite struggles to the contrary, but the whole "Grey Knights can't fall to Chaos" thing is still upheld.

 

I believe I read the story, will have to revisit it. There may be lore inconsistencies here. If Custodes and GK can be mindjacked you would think the Imperium that knows what they do (ie the Inquisition) would try to stop or at least contain any action/mission/custodian duty by the potentially tainted until this is fixed. The roles of GK and Custodians being more vital that the role of the average SM who can become both corrupted and mentally gone. Certainly seems like a lore hole when such mindjacking can happen millenia after the Heresy.

[Scribe]

I think this is pretty bad addition to the canon.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Considering the complications, this lore addition does sound more trouble than is worth. The Custodes accompanying the Emperor could have been diminished in a more "conventional" method, I believe.

[b1soul]

I think this is fine...it shows how incredibly powerful post-Molech Horus is, as the realspace conduit for all Four in the final battle. Terra is subsiding into the Warp because of him, and would've become a new Eye of Terror had he won.

 

"I'd honestly be careful with conflating actual corruption/turning with force-puppeting against their will, though. You can arguably hijack the nerve system of a physical body via psychic powers, but it might not affect the soul within."

 

The way Abnett portrays it is somewhere between full-on corruption and force-puppeting, as the quote above shows. It's more like mental manipulation and "soul twisting" to get the Custodes to desire the Emperor's death. So this is not Horus telekinetically meat-puppeting Custodes who are mentally clear but physically helpless.

 

It makes such perfect sense. Such perfect, rational sense. Caecaltus isn’t sure why it’s taken him so long to appreciate it. The Emperor must die. He must. It’s the only logical conclusion that anyone sane could reach. The Emperor must die–

No–!
The Emperor must die. He is mad, a mad monster, drunk on power, and His tyrannical rule has lasted far too long. He really must die–
Nooo–!

He must die now. It’s the only way to stop the war. It’s the only way to protect the human race. The Emperor must die immediately–
Please stop–!
He must be put down and destroyed as quickly as possible. And who better to do that than the men built to guard His life? Who else is strong enough? Close enough?
Please–
Who else has the peerless clarity of mind to understand the perfect, rational sense of it? The Emperor must die.
I can’t–
Take that spear. Plunge it through Him. Free the species.
Shut up–!
It’s all been arranged. The stage is set. Everything is ready. The Emperor won’t see it coming, because He’s a mad monster, and utterly deranged. All the hard work’s been done. He’s been brought out of hiding to His place of execution. He is defenceless. Now just take that spear–
Get out–!
The cunning of Horus Lupercal knows no limits. There is a reason his father named him Warmaster.

...

The Emperor came here ready for anything, first-found, so you prepared nothing. Misdirection. He was looking everywhere except at Himself. With His attention held, you reached in and, with formidable sleight of hand, took away His readiness. You took away His focus and determination, from the moment He arrived. You took it from all of us.

The Emperor’s warblade, a brand of white fire, leaves burning magnesium after-streaks in the air.
You took away our keen edge by easing our minds into distraction and puzzlement, into reflection, into random thoughts. You did it with such precision we forgot ourselves. You did it with such concealed domination of will even our master couldn’t sense your mind at work.
Companion Caercil sinks to the deck and slides apart in three pieces, like a perfect puzzle that will never be put back together. 
And then you twisted the pristine souls of the Custodians. Each one of us was painstakingly restructured on a molecular level to withstand the corruption of Chaos, but you took the incorruptible and you broke our minds. You broke the unbreakable.
 

 

The last part is also vague. Does it mean the Custodes are literally incorruptible and so Horus, as an alternative, mentally "broke" them instead? Or do we equate unbreakable with incorruptible, and thus equate breaking with corrupting...so Horus did "corrupt" those Custodes to a more limited extent (as opposed to how mortals or Astartes can be much more thoroughly corrupted). Abnett is deliberately being vague here imo, but the point is to emphasise that even Custodes can get screwed over by what is essentially the Anti-Emperor of the setting, channeling the power of all four Chaos gods. If something like this could ever happen, it would be in this context.

Edited March 29, 2023 by b1soul

[SkimaskMohawk]

@b1soul is right that it's really not just hijacking the bodies; they're mentally twisted into wanting to kill the emperor, or at least that message drives their actions. 

 

But it also can't be actual "corruption", because the emperor then reverses it. The ones that are too debilitated get mercy-killed, but the rest are back on team emperor and go with him. He doesn't go around purifying anything else tainted by chaos so its rather vague.

 

Weird scene, unclear how the Custodes incorruptibility aligned with the events, never again happens and should be taken as exceptionally unique.

 

 

[Moonreaper666]

14 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

@b1soul is right that it's really not just hijacking the bodies; they're mentally twisted into wanting to kill the emperor, or at least that message drives their actions. 

 

But it also can't be actual "corruption", because the emperor then reverses it. The ones that are too debilitated get mercy-killed, but the rest are back on team emperor and go with him. He doesn't go around purifying anything else tainted by chaos so its rather vague.

 

Weird scene, unclear how the Custodes incorruptibility aligned with the events, never again happens and should be taken as exceptionally unique.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, Samus tried to corrupt Dorn in the VS. Maybe make him the Dark King

 

Malcador did say Dorn can be corrupted by Chaos

[EverythingIsGreat]

I wonder if the Custodes mess is going to be explained. Or, if they will all be KIA before anybody else finds out about it, and of course the Emperor doesn’t communicate after internment. Still not satisfactory because Chaos presumably knows what Horus is doing. Did Chaos never use this tactic again? Is that why the Custodians don’t leave the Palace? This may be handled at an opportune time to GW’s satisfaction.

 

But this is a bigger mess when it happens thousands of years later to special Imperial forces that are similarly thought impervious to mind tricks. I revisited Incorruptible by Annandale which DarkChaplain brought up.

 

Spoiler

Regarding established lore, this is a major detour. A GK Purifier (!!) mindjacked by a huge Genestealer swarm. How? It is not explained, neither is speculation offered. But the implications are interesting. Although the GK was not (spiritually) corrupted, his progenoid glands were (biologically) so they could not be retrieved. What a neat way for Chaos etc to get rid of the GK.

Sneaky way out of lore contradictions: the involved Inquisitor seems a bit nonchalant that a renown GK hero is compromised mentally (the other GKs in the story are apoplectic). So maybe the Inquisition has encountered this in the past? What are they doing about it then? Also: all GKs are psykers. A psychic alert could/should be sent, left in place when such infiltration occurs. What about GKs that are present but able to resist, or who find out what happened later? Are they liable to be sent to missions they will not survive?

 

Eh!

[DarkChaplain]

By the way: We're a bit too deep into TEATD discussion at this point, aren't we?

[Moonreaper666]

9 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

By the way: We're a bit too deep into TEATD discussion at this point, aren't we?

 

Dan is writing both and they are connected. He did this on purpose

 

I believe Valdor is suffering from nostalgia like Bile did in his trilogy, except Fabius got out of his funk and embraced his new role

[DukeLeto69]

16 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

By the way: We're a bit too deep into TEATD discussion at this point, aren't we?

To be fair though the whole Valdor and Corruptible Custodes and clear set up for Bequin we will get in TEATD means it kind of flows on.

[Moonreaper666]

20 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

To be fair though the whole Valdor and Corruptible Custodes and clear set up for Bequin we will get in TEATD means it kind of flows on.

 

Assuming TEATD is Three Volumes do you think Pandemonium will come before or after Vol 2?

[DukeLeto69]

7 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Assuming TEATD is Three Volumes do you think Pandemonium will come before or after Vol 2?

After regardless of whether TEATD is 2 or 3 volumes. Definitely after.

[Taliesin]

10 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Assuming TEATD is Three Volumes do you think Pandemonium will come before or after Vol 2?

 

The afterword to the book specifically mentions it will be 2 volumes......