Superheavies - Knights vs. tanks

[MajorNese]

Hello everyone, a question I've been asking myself for a while:

 

I get that knights, as the biggest walkers short of a real titan, are fitting the AdMech theme, but what are its advantages over IG-based superheavies?

 

Every time I use a medium-ranged knight, it gets exposed to more enemy fire than would be healthy. The repair options are limited (repair WL trait + 1CP = 4W), so that doesn't work on the long run, especially as a knight outpaces its techpriest. Rotate Ion Shields makes sense against the heavier firepower, Knight of the Cog is a one-time thing with Shroudpsalm, but it's still not keeping it together forever.

 

As superheavy auxilia detachments don't need any other unit choices, wouldn't IG superheavies be more suited for our needs? We can repair them better (with enginseers to begin with, our cheap filler HQ), they offer long-ranged firepower for every occasion (from horde decimation to hunting superheavies from across the board), and there are even more support options. I'm currently looking at a +3CP 200p IG detachment (3x10 meatshield guardsmen, company commander, primaris psyker), the psyker can increase the save or give it -1 to hit (as well as giving us Deny the Witch), at which point a baneblade variant reaches the same resilience as the stratagem-augmented knight, without using up CP.

 

What are your thoughts and experiences with this? I'm looking at a few other knights for modeling purposes anyway, but haven't found them to be that good on the field so far.

[ImperialSquishiness]

Having not used a Knight, the only benefit is the invun save. Usually run a Baneblade, Hellhammer or Shadowsword with my guard. Best to take it in a Supreme Command detachment, then you get the Regimental bonuses. Valhallan or Cadian are the best ones to use. Valhallan keeps it operating at peak efficiency for longer. Cadian reroll 1s if you stay still.

You could go Tallarn to then spend 3CP to deep strike it. The look on an opponent's face when you do is priceless!

[Charlo]

Really, it's up to you buddy!

 

As you say - while they are touted as being very Ad Mech and kosher for us, Knights don't have that much synergy with the Mechanicus.

 

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from bringing one of the massive gun-fortresses of the AM, however - keep in mine the only have BS4+ so aren't always as reliable and as ImperialSquishiness point out they have no invulnerable save to fall back on either.

 

If funds/ game size are not an issue i'd say get a Titan every time - but in Matched play at least they've been heavily pointed out of it.

[Tyriks]

Well, the one big advantage is that knights are much scarier in close combat. But overall, the Baneblade and all its variants are better priced. I stick with knights just for flavor.

[Lysere]

Really, it's up to you buddy!

 

As you say - while they are touted as being very Ad Mech and kosher for us, Knights don't have that much synergy with the Mechanicus.

 

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from bringing one of the massive gun-fortresses of the AM, however - keep in mine the only have BS4+ so aren't always as reliable and as ImperialSquishiness point out they have no invulnerable save to fall back on either.

 

If funds/ game size are not an issue i'd say get a Titan every time - but in Matched play at least they've been heavily pointed out of it.

 

In terms of Synergy it depends on which way you're looking at things. In terms of adding to a mechanicus force the knight doesn't add quite as much although the Thermal cannon is a good addition. If you're looking at it from the knights angle mechanicus are almost a must have.

 

Machine spirit resurgent is the single most important stratagem to making a knight work well, and no other flavor of super heavy can benefit from it currently in the imperial line up. Also generally mechanicus lack speed outside of a couple of units/strats while knights are very fast and IG superheavies don't get their regiment bonuses in the AUX detachment while I'm sure knights will when they get theirs.

 

If what you need is a solid long range weapons platform the the tanks will do that just fine even with their limitations in that pairing, the knight is meant for a different role.

[Vel'Cona]

As others have said, Knights generally struggle from a pure cost-benefits analysis compared to other SHs, so it's really a matter of taste and what your meta can handle.  If you're not super competitive a Knight can do similar stuff to a SH tank, though with less guns and more melee.  The issue is that the latter is dubiously useful in the insane shooty meta of 8th edition.

[hermanista]

I know it's not strictly AdMech, but I think the resurgence of knights will come with the Questor Imperialis codex in the bearish future.

 

Seeing the frankly revolting riptide rules, I have to expect the knights to get cheaper/buffed/both.

 

Add in household tactics and we are in a whole new world.

 

I wonder if Questor Mechanicus might be one of the household traits and thus upgrade the QM in the AdMech book?

 

Don't know anything about that, but maybe it's a possibility?

[MajorNese]

Guess the knight's most useful part is adding pressure and mobility. As I play Lucius, maybe I can capitalize on that. Let's see what the Armigers will cost, maybe they will do that just fine. For now, my converted baneblade works just fine, as a mobile gunline whose self-repair puts necrons to shame. Ordered a Macharius Vulkan, that might be fun too.

 

 

As others have said, Knights generally struggle from a pure cost-benefits analysis compared to other SHs, so it's really a matter of taste and what your meta can handle.  If you're not super competitive a Knight can do similar stuff to a SH tank, though with less guns and more melee.  The issue is that the latter is dubiously useful in the insane shooty meta of 8th edition.

Funnily enough, a baneblade isn't that shabby in CC either. 9A at S9/AP-2/D3, hitting on a 5+, will kill single models. Or surprise your opponent by popping 1 CP on it, hitting on a 2+ for a round. Anything locking the baneblade in CC will still get shot at by its side weapons, so getting stuck in CC with it is rather impractical.

[Subtle Discord]

Ok, that's it, this has just convinced me what I'm going to do. Don't know why I didn't connect the dots before. The Forge World HH Mechanicus Models thread gave me the idea to combine two Servohauler kits with some scratch-building to create a micro Odrinatus. Now this thread is adding to the idea; make the footprint roughly that of a Baneblade so I can use the rules as a straightforward counts-as replacement. *Rubs his hands together with anticipation* Excellent. Thank you.

[MajorNese]

Yay, more mininatii!!!

 

Though you might want to make a count-as Macharius instead, you might need a lot more servohauler kits for baneblade size. We built two mininatii so far, with one kit each, but those are used as onagers. At least they fit the 100mm base rather precisely.

 

[Subtle Discord]

Yeah, that's why I like the idea so much, it's scalable. Keep the footprint small and it can represent something smaller like an Onager. Expand the footprint and you can easily take it large enough to be a LoW. Huh, a Macharius isn't a bad idea either, but the Baneblade is still possible I think. Remember, the Oridinatus has four tractor components and the weapon is suspended between them. It will require a substantial chassis in the center to hold the weapon and connect the four tractors, and there also needs to be some setup for the secondary weapons systems. It can be filled out, I can do it. I want to do it. :)

 

Damn, I need to get some of my small projects done so I can get on to some of these larger ideas.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Subtle Discord