Is there an easier way to build an army list?

[Masked Thespian]

I'm looking at attending a tournament at the end of the month, so I've been looking at writing a 1500 point Deathwatch army list.  But, upon trying to do so, I can't help but feel a little overwhelmed by the process.

 

This is the process I am following:

1. I first need to look at the page in Index Imperium 1 telling me which units I can take, then decide on a unit,
2. I look up the unit entry (either in Index Imperium 1 or Codex: Space Marines),
3. I decide how many of each model I want,
4. I flick to the back of the book to check the points cost per model,
5. I cross-reference with Chapter Approved 2017 to see if the points cost has been changed,
6. I decide which weapon or weapons I kit the models out with,
7. I flick to the back of the book to check the costs of the weapons,
8. I cross-reference with Chapter Approved again,
9. I then get to calculate the total cost of the unit.

Rinse and repeat for each unit I wish to take that is even slightly different from another one.

 

Is this really the only way to do this?  It feels so inefficient and it feels like if I want to re-jig a unit in any way I pretty much have to go through the whole process again.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Masked Thespian

[Ranulf]

https://www.battlescribe.net/

 

You're welcome.

[Major_Gilbear]

Well, aside from Battlescribe (which is unofficial), I'm not aware of any other way.

 

Even then, for tournaments, you still have to double-check Battlescribe lists, in case there are any errors in points or permitted unit options.

 

I've long thought that having a free online list-building tool by GW would be a fanatstic idea - it helps them get feedback on what units and options people are choosing in their lists (which in turn helps them analyse what options to put on future sprues, and also to provide insight into units/options that need rebalancing), and it would help customers make and share army lists. It's also easy for them to update with points and unit options changes without needing to issue printed updates all the time.

 

The other thing is that I think GW want people to build cool units and then just put together a "friendly" game with somebody via Power Levels without worrying about whether the unit sergeant has a powerfist or a plasma pistol. Because PL is looser and more generic than points, it goes right on the unit entry for easy and quick list-building; whereas calculating points is a lot more fiddly, and the more roundabout way of calculating them is a somewhat deliberate layout decision I think.

[Vel'Cona]

Yeah, not having a "real" codex is crappy for army list building.  Battlescribe is nice enough but it's still wonky and requires a ton of rulebook referencing.  Beyond the noted power creep of codex versus non-codex armies, it's one of the reasons I've gone for the former exclusively.  Even the armies that do have a full codex release still require a bit of backtracking if you dig into allies for multiple detachments (but I prefer my armies pure, TYVM :P).

[Delta.Skies]

I'm looking at attending a tournament at the end of the month, so I've been looking at writing a 1500 point Deathwatch army list.  But, upon trying to do so, I can't help but feel a little overwhelmed by the process.

 

This is the process I am following:

1. I first need to look at the page in Index Imperium 1 telling me which units I can take, then decide on a unit,
2. I look up the unit entry (either in Index Imperium 1 or Codex: Space Marines),
3. I decide how many of each model I want,
4. I flick to the back of the book to check the points cost per model,
5. I cross-reference with Chapter Approved 2017 to see if the points cost has been changed,
6. I decide which weapon or weapons I kit the models out with,
7. I flick to the back of the book to check the costs of the weapons,
8. I cross-reference with Chapter Approved again,
9. I then get to calculate the total cost of the unit.

Rinse and repeat for each unit I wish to take that is even slightly different from another one.

 

Is this really the only way to do this?  It feels so inefficient and it feels like if I want to re-jig a unit in any way I pretty much have to go through the whole process again.

 

Because i know we didnt have a codex I went on and printed the pages i needed ( gotta love pdf files ) Went through the space marines and units i knew i wanted in my army out of IG. crossed referenced and went ahead an wrote the points in on their stat cards, next up is to do all the weapons and then cut out the erratas and sticking it to the pages that needed it. But i truly know what you mean, its alot of back and forth to remember all of this. Specially for deathwatch, cause we are so limited outside of our own. Watch captains especially (Do they not get SIA?) 

[Masked Thespian]

https://www.battlescribe.net/

 

You're welcome.

 

Ooh, that sounds like a really great ide-

 

Even then, for tournaments, you still have to double-check Battlescribe lists, in case there are any errors in points or permitted unit options.

 

-a...  Huh...  That kinda sucks, that even though you can use the app you still have to cross-reference through all of the books to confirm everything's okay.  I guess it's nice that the app will give you an idea of roughly how much a unit with a particular load-out will cost, but if I still have to flick back and forth through all the books I don't think it's for me.

 

I've long thought that having a free online list-building tool by GW would be a fanatstic idea - it helps them get feedback on what units and options people are choosing in their lists (which in turn helps them analyse what options to put on future sprues, and also to provide insight into units/options that need rebalancing), and it would help customers make and share army lists. It's also easy for them to update with points and unit options changes without needing to issue printed updates all the time.

 

The other thing is that I think GW want people to build cool units and then just put together a "friendly" game with somebody via Power Levels without worrying about whether the unit sergeant has a powerfist or a plasma pistol. Because PL is looser and more generic than points, it goes right on the unit entry for easy and quick list-building; whereas calculating points is a lot more fiddly, and the more roundabout way of calculating them is a somewhat deliberate layout decision I think.

 

Agreed.  Back in 3rd Edition GW did sell an Army Builder program.  It's wasn't the best but it was pretty functional for a very cheap price.  Had lots of support from the users, too.

 

And I kinda agree with the thing about Power Levels, even though every army book I've read that they've done in the past had the unit costs there and the upgrades listed with cost on a second page (and I've played through 40k 2nd Edition through to 8th, and Fantasy 4th Edition through to 8th, so that's a lot of army books).

 

Yeah, not having a "real" codex is crappy for army list building.  Battlescribe is nice enough but it's still wonky and requires a ton of rulebook referencing.  Beyond the noted power creep of codex versus non-codex armies, it's one of the reasons I've gone for the former exclusively.  Even the armies that do have a full codex release still require a bit of backtracking if you dig into allies for multiple detachments (but I prefer my armies pure, TYVM ).

 

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one having this problem.  I figured there was a non-zero chance that I'd get laughed out of here with comments like "first-world problems".

 

Because i know we didnt have a codex I went on and printed the pages i needed ( gotta love pdf files ) Went through the space marines and units i knew i wanted in my army out of IG. crossed referenced and went ahead an wrote the points in on their stat cards, next up is to do all the weapons and then cut out the erratas and sticking it to the pages that needed it. But i truly know what you mean, its alot of back and forth to remember all of this. Specially for deathwatch, cause we are so limited outside of our own. Watch captains especially (Do they not get SIA?)

I'm thinking that I'm going to have to do something along these lines.  Maybe not a custom pdf file, but annotated post-it notes with weapons options and costs on the appropriate pages might have to suffice.

[Moostick]

The best way is to build a spreadsheet in Excel. Easy to crosscheck, update and control the layout.

 

Downside is that it's only as good as the amount of initial effort you're willing to put in.

[Delta.Skies]

 

https://www.battlescribe.net/

 

You're welcome.

Ooh, that sounds like a really great ide-

Even then, for tournaments, you still have to double-check Battlescribe lists, in case there are any errors in points or permitted unit options.

-a... Huh... That kinda sucks, that even though you can use the app you still have to cross-reference through all of the books to confirm everything's okay. I guess it's nice that the app will give you an idea of roughly how much a unit with a particular load-out will cost, but if I still have to flick back and forth through all the books I don't think it's for me.

I've long thought that having a free online list-building tool by GW would be a fanatstic idea - it helps them get feedback on what units and options people are choosing in their lists (which in turn helps them analyse what options to put on future sprues, and also to provide insight into units/options that need rebalancing), and it would help customers make and share army lists. It's also easy for them to update with points and unit options changes without needing to issue printed updates all the time.

 

The other thing is that I think GW want people to build cool units and then just put together a "friendly" game with somebody via Power Levels without worrying about whether the unit sergeant has a powerfist or a plasma pistol. Because PL is looser and more generic than points, it goes right on the unit entry for easy and quick list-building; whereas calculating points is a lot more fiddly, and the more roundabout way of calculating them is a somewhat deliberate layout decision I think.

Agreed. Back in 3rd Edition GW did sell an Army Builder program. It's wasn't the best but it was pretty functional for a very cheap price. Had lots of support from the users, too.

 

And I kinda agree with the thing about Power Levels, even though every army book I've read that they've done in the past had the unit costs there and the upgrades listed with cost on a second page (and I've played through 40k 2nd Edition through to 8th, and Fantasy 4th Edition through to 8th, so that's a lot of army books).

Yeah, not having a "real" codex is crappy for army list building. Battlescribe is nice enough but it's still wonky and requires a ton of rulebook referencing. Beyond the noted power creep of codex versus non-codex armies, it's one of the reasons I've gone for the former exclusively. Even the armies that do have a full codex release still require a bit of backtracking if you dig into allies for multiple detachments (but I prefer my armies pure, TYVM ).

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one having this problem. I figured there was a non-zero chance that I'd get laughed out of here with comments like "first-world problems".

Because i know we didnt have a codex I went on and printed the pages i needed ( gotta love pdf files ) Went through the space marines and units i knew i wanted in my army out of IG. crossed referenced and went ahead an wrote the points in on their stat cards, next up is to do all the weapons and then cut out the erratas and sticking it to the pages that needed it. But i truly know what you mean, its alot of back and forth to remember all of this. Specially for deathwatch, cause we are so limited outside of our own. Watch captains especially (Do they not get SIA?)

I'm thinking that I'm going to have to do something along these lines. Maybe not a custom pdf file, but annotated post-it notes with weapons options and costs on the appropriate pages might have to suffice.

I'm saying all my codexes are off, so when I go to print I can print off all the pages I need with page selection and stapled them in order. To do my references.

[Panzer]

Just use Battlescribe, everybody does it. Yes it's not official and it can happen that something is not right but it usually is. So the amount of checking depends on how much you trust the data file.

 

 

 

I've long thought that having a free online list-building tool by GW would be a fanatstic idea - it helps them get feedback on what units and options people are choosing in their lists (which in turn helps them analyse what options to put on future sprues, and also to provide insight into units/options that need rebalancing), and it would help customers make and share army lists. It's also easy for them to update with points and unit options changes without needing to issue printed updates all the time.

 

 

GW already announced that there will be a list building app like for AoS.

[Xisor]

For my part, I've saved some time by pencilling in the CA17 updates into the other Codices and Indices. I've been fiddling about with Excel too, but I'm still not 100% sold on my own vision, and that leaves me waiting to see the Codex before *really* wrestling with it.

 

Until then, the most time is spent by just playing Power Level games. Not useful for tournaments, ultimately, but it makes life easier otherwise.

[Shamansky]

For my part, I've saved some time by pencilling in the CA17 updates into the other Codices and Indices. I've been fiddling about with Excel too, but I'm still not 100% sold on my own vision, and that leaves me waiting to see the Codex before *really* wrestling with it.

 

Until then, the most time is spent by just playing Power Level games. Not useful for tournaments, ultimately, but it makes life easier otherwise.

 

Our local (several cities in several regions) community decided that points prices are messed up too much to create an army-list without getting heart attack or schizophrenia. So we have tournaments with lists built with power levels. Nice and easy. 

[Scurvydog]

Power levels are just extremely out of balance. At least that must make deathwatch semi competitive, as you can just kit out everyone with frag cannons for free. For 90 power you can fit in 40 guys with frag cannons, hilarious.

 

Normally I use Battlescribe myself.

 

But making an excel is a rather simple matter, at least with Deathwatch being such a small army.

 

I do agree with those who mention GW should make a list builder, it seems complete crazy that it does not exist. If only they could replace 1 of all the 40k shovelware titles with a list builder app instead :-/

Edited March 19, 2018 by Scurvydog

[Shamansky]

Power levels are just extremely out of balance. 

But you may and can take whatever you want. Not just things that are 'point-effitient', which in most cases mean bunch of crap units.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

Power levels are just extremely out of balance.

But you may and can take whatever you want. Not just things that are 'point-effitient', which in most cases mean bunch of crap units.

The problem occurs when you have a unit for 10 power with no options to speak of compared to a 9 power unit with slews of options that would make it twice the cost of the 10 power unit in points.

 

Still a 10 power unit vs a 9 power unit, but the 9 power unit massively outperforms the other.

[Scurvydog]

 

 

Power levels are just extremely out of balance.

But you may and can take whatever you want. Not just things that are 'point-effitient', which in most cases mean bunch of crap units.

The problem occurs when you have a unit for 10 power with no options to speak of compared to a 9 power unit with slews of options that would make it twice the cost of the 10 power unit in points.

 

Still a 10 power unit vs a 9 power unit, but the 9 power unit massively outperforms the other.

 

 

Roboute Guilliman 18 power

 

5 man killteam 9 power.

 

You better kit those guys out with more than bolters ;)

[Claws and Effect]

Hardly a fair comparison.

 

How about you take 2 units that have the same power rating and make the comparison there?

 

And actually, I would expect in this case that 2 5 man kill teams in rapid fire range and firing Hellfire rounds should be able to kill Guilliman.

[Vel'Cona]

And actually, I would expect in this case that 2 5 man kill teams in rapid fire range and firing Hellfire rounds should be able to kill Guilliman.

 

Sorry to say, Mathhammer (at a basic level) does not play that out.  Not that your argument is invalid on Power Levels, OFC, but the lack of granularity in them is a huge problem from a purely competitive standpoint.

 

Honestly, the PL argument comes back to min-maxing versus "out of the box" play, where PL is clearly designed for the latter and the points system is designed for the former.  In either case, I think PL vs. Points is not a worthwhile discussion in this format, as it's not a direct solution to the issue of listbuilding.

[Panzer]

You don't even have to compare two different units. Just compare two of the same units but with different loadouts. No way in hell is a unit of 10 Tacticals with just Bolter as strong as a unit of 10 Tacticals with Plasma gun, Plasma cannon and Combi-Plasma but they do cost the same amount of PL. It's just one of many examples.

The point system may not be completely balanced, but the power level system is flawed by default.

[robofish7591]

The way I see it, power levels are great for gaming with people you know well and just want to throw a game together.  Powerlevel's issues only come up when people try to min max or game the system.  For competitive games or games with people I don't know, it would be regular points all the way.  For apoc games or just throwing down with a friend powerlevels are great.

 

Honestly though, I would prefer the points system from last edition.  I know it really isn't that different from what we have now in 8th, (maybe it is just me) but it seemed that in 5th, 6th, and 7th the numbers were easier to work with since you didn't have to add up points for the default gear.  Anyway, power levels work just fine for me, but they may not work so well for others.  Neither system is perfectly balanced and can be abused by people who wish to do so.

[WAR]

GW said in April we will be getting their free 40k army builder app

[Panzer]

GW said in April we will be getting their free 40k army builder app

 

Only for Power levels first tho. The actual app for points is still in development.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

 

GW said in April we will be getting their free 40k army builder app

 

 

Only for Power levels first tho. The actual app for points is still in development.

As long as it's a power level app it's effectively useless.

I've also never met anyone who struggled to point up power level armies.

The whole point of it was to be simple.

[Shamansky]

You don't even have to compare two different units. Just compare two of the same units but with different loadouts. No way in hell is a unit of 10 Tacticals with just Bolter as strong as a unit of 10 Tacticals with Plasma gun, Plasma cannon and Combi-Plasma but they do cost the same amount of PL. It's just one of many examples.

The point system may not be completely balanced, but the power level system is flawed by default.

You don't see the main advantage of power levels. You really get tactical flexibility. You need crap guns? you get 'em. You need plasma-boys? You can take them too without a feeling that you're being robbed. Different guns are for different targets. Will you waste a plasmagun for a cheap screen unit? I don't think so

[Panzer]

 

You don't even have to compare two different units. Just compare two of the same units but with different loadouts. No way in hell is a unit of 10 Tacticals with just Bolter as strong as a unit of 10 Tacticals with Plasma gun, Plasma cannon and Combi-Plasma but they do cost the same amount of PL. It's just one of many examples.

The point system may not be completely balanced, but the power level system is flawed by default.

You don't see the main advantage of power levels. You really get tactical flexibility. You need crap guns? you get 'em. You need plasma-boys? You can take them too without a feeling that you're being robbed. Different guns are for different targets. Will you waste a plasmagun for a cheap screen unit? I don't think so

 

 

Uhm that's no advantage of power levels tho. Nothing is stopping you from taking crap guns with points but in return you get a fair price instead of having to pay as much as the full kitted out unit. No of course I won't waste a plasmagun for a cheap screen unit ... that's what I'd take Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher for lol. However even Plasma guns are better at killing cheap screen units than Bolter even if that's not their prime target. Hence why they are more expensive in the points system.

 

Not sure what you're trying to prove with your post. Nobody is denying that different weapons have different purposes.

Edited March 23, 2018 by sfPanzer

[mjrwaud]

It really is a bit aside from the original topic of discussion, but the whole power level point system has really seemed ridiculous when there's any customization possible... Deathwatch are one of the most obvious examples. For instance, two 10 man Deathwatch Kill Teams... one bare bones stock and the other loaded to the gills... both 19 Power Levels. 

 

 

Deathwatch Kill Team [19 PL, 190pts]

 

Deathwatch Veteran [2 PL, 19pts] X 10

Boltgun

Frag & Krak grenades

 

 

Deathwatch Kill Team [19 PL, 462pts]

 

Black Shield [2 PL, 40pts]

Storm shield [5pts], Thunder hammer [16pts]

Frag & Krak grenades

 

Deathwatch Veteran [2 PL, 43pts] X 4

Combi-melta [19pts], Storm shield [5pts]

Frag & Krak grenades

 

Deathwatch Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 49pts] X 4

Deathwatch Frag Cannon [30pts]

Frag & Krak grenades

 

Watch Sergeant [2 PL, 54pts]

Combi-melta [19pts], Thunder hammer [16pts]

Frag & Krak grenades

 

 

That's pretty tough to balance when only using the power level point system.

Edited March 23, 2018 by mjrwaud