How many Troops to run?

[Grim Dog Studios]

Hi all, sorry if this sort of thing has been covered before I tried searching for it but not a lot came up!

 

I've been wondering lately what is the sweet spot for troop choices in certain points levels of games. For instance, I normally play 100 PL/2000 Points games against my friend who runs an ork horde list (Max units of 30 Boyz). I usually run 3 maxed out squads of Tactical marines with Power Sword, Combi-plasma, Plasma gun and a heavy bolter. Two of which are in rhinos to move up the field and the third squad remains to hold backfield objectives near my deployment zone.

I know many people say that running 10man tacs is pointless and 5man squads in Razorbacks are better, but my army is effectively 8th Ed 30K so no Razorbacks for me in the fluff which is something I am quite strict about! I know this limits me somewhat but I enjoy the hobby for it's fluff as opposed to the gaming, but I would stick like to maximise effectiveness when on the tabletop.

 

However, running 30 tacticals makes me feel like a lot of my points are being used for my Troops when I see other peoples lists on the forums where they are only using for example 3 squads of 5 scouts in their troop choices. My tacticals and their rhinos take up 687 points of my list, as opposed to somebody running 3 squads of scouts for just over 300 points-ish. I feel like this seems to limit me a bit in what "fancy" units I can take with the remaining points, however at the same time my tacticals do a decent job at holding back his units of 30 Boyz, especially with our chapter tactic of being able to withdraw and fire again.

 

So I ask, is there a sweet spot for the number of troops to take compared to the number of big threat units?

 

Jay

[Dosjetka]

Three full Tactical Squads in a 2000-point army in a non-competitive setting is what I would take, though I would probably drop the power sword in favour of chainswords (unless you find it works wonders on your Sergeants).

[Grim Dog Studios]

Thank you for the incredibly speedy reply Dos! Yeah it is definitely a non-competitive setting, I am far too slow with the rules and enjoy talking too much to enter any sort of competitions I think, my opponent would get fed up waiting for me. 

The Sergeants have Power Swords for simply rule of cool, I really wanted to echo a Roman theme with my marines so they all have Gladius type swords. However I do intend on building more Tactical Squads just because, so will perhaps magnetise their arms to allow for other weapon options.

[I_Heart_69]

I’m sure you could play the power swords as “counts-as” chainswords, especially if they’re just silver and don’t have fancy lightning painted on them. And yes if you’re not worried about being highly competetive, massed infantry is actually really not a bad thing. I would, however, consider combat-squading those units sometimes, depending on how many units your opponent has.

[StraightSilver]

I don't think 3 full tactical squads is too much in a casual setting but I agree combat squadding them into 6 x 5 man squads might be better in certain games.

You're much less likely to fail a morale check with 5 man Ultras squads thanks to the +1 leadership. You'll also be in a better position to grab objectives.

And yes Scouts are good, and I used to use a couple of squads of them, but I am slowly coming around to the idea that Tactical Squads are better to bulk out your troops selection. Certainly in Power Level games I'd choose Tacs over Scouts every time, not so much in matched play.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run two 5 man Intercessor squads and one 5 man scout squad... will be adding another 5 man scout squad.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So...your basic question (and thread title is): How many troops to run?

 

You then add this:

 

"I've been wondering lately what is the sweet spot for troop choices in certain points levels of games"

 

Now I don't want to put words in your mouth or assume ideas, but it sounds like your doing a bit of optimization there, which suggests increasing the competitiveness of your army.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.   But the original question "How many troops to run" can only be answered if we really know/understand your priorities.

 

If you really are just looking for fun/good times, there really isn't a proper answer. Do you like your 3 full man sized tactical squads? If so, then that is the right number of troops!  I say this as someone who is profoundly fond of tactical marines as well. 

 

But the competitive answer is, in a 2k pt list, where you're striving to be competitve, probably 3, or 6 if you're doing 2 battalions.   All 3/6 squads would be MSU, and most people would probably say 3-4 scout squads and 2-3 intercessor squads. Possibly a tac unit or 2 to imbed lascannons deep in your backfield.  Scouts have forward deployment to gobble up deepstrike options and intercessors have great durability.  Tacs have neither of that, but they can carry a heavy weapon, so if you're light on lascannons and such, that's a good way to use them.

[Captain Idaho]

I always take 3 Tactical squads as they fill out my army nicely. I take 2 full units to give me some numbers for board control and a 5 man unit to act as additional support

 

I regret I haven't the points for more than 25 but that's not an issue since I have plenty of additional numbers in the other infantry I take (elites). If I had a list with less than the numbers I have now from Elites I'd probably increase the number of Tactical Marines to compensate.

[Rogue]

Something I’ve found with 10-man tactical squads (and 10-man devastators, as it happens) is that my opponents delay shooting at them because they take a fair bit of effort to kill, and most of that goes into removing the basic bolter guys.

 

It’s much harder to wipe a full squad off the board, or off an objective, and when an opposing squad’s firepower knocks off two bolters, with another eight men to go (and another five before you start hurting the good weapons), that can be a bit disheartening for the other side.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Something I’ve found with 10-man tactical squads (and 10-man devastators, as it happens) is that my opponents delay shooting at them because they take a fair bit of effort to kill, and most of that goes into removing the basic bolter guys.

 

It’s much harder to wipe a full squad off the board, or off an objective, and when an opposing squad’s firepower knocks off two bolters, with another eight men to go (and another five before you start hurting the good weapons), that can be a bit disheartening for the other side.

 

I don't disagree, but the point stands that, point-for-point, you get more T4 durability from 5 intercessors (10 wounds) than you get from 10 tacticals (also 10 wounds).  the 5 intercessors cost 90 and the tacs 130, minimum.   And while the Tacs get you las (or missile, or whatever), the intercessors have good, if different, weapons, with good range.

 

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not dumping on Tacticals. I love them. I have 30 Blood Angel Tacs, and 20 Raven Guard Tacs.  I'm not an alpha-player / meta-follower.  But Intercessors beat Tacs at durability, and Scouts beat Tacs at deployment (and are *almost* as durable).  So the only way we can really answer the OP's question is if;

 

-he knows what the relative differences are between the troop types

and

-we know what his actual priorities are (what is he looking for/valuing in selecting his troop choices.)  If he's looking for pure durability, he should take intercessors. If he's looking for deployment shenanigans, he should take scouts. If he's looking to embed a couple backfield heavy weapons, Tacs are the way to go.

I always take 3 Tactical squads as they fill out my army nicely. I take 2 full units to give me some numbers for board control and a 5 man unit to act as additional support

 

I regret I haven't the points for more than 25 but that's not an issue since I have plenty of additional numbers in the other infantry I take (elites). If I had a list with less than the numbers I have now from Elites I'd probably increase the number of Tactical Marines to compensate.

 

Are you just taking them barebones, Idaho, or do you give them any special/heavy guns? Do you combat squad the 10-mans?

[Rogue]

I accept that primaris marines give as many wounds for less points, although that advantage diminishes if they come under fire from multiple damage weapons.

 

Centurion Jay was asking about a 30k-style force, which I guess precludes the primaris guys anyway. And as a more direct answer to the question, my own experience is that a couple of full-size tactical squads are generally more useful than several smaller ones, because of their more concentrated firepower, better durability, and because I can move them both using just two rhinos.

 

On the downside, they don’t cover as much ground as combat squads or scouts, so there’s that.

[Captain Idaho]

I always take weapon upgrades and combi weapons in my Tacticals. It makes them much more useful on the table and actually increases their durability in a sense.

 

As mentioned before, if you have several targets needing elimination, the opponent won't prioritise on Tacticals all the time. Each bolter model removed has no effect on the performance of the combi plasma and plasma gun, for example.

 

As such, larger squads like 10 man squads will almost gladly lose 7 models rather than any of my Sternguard, for example. If my opponent targets my Tactical squads and reduces them like that it might look like I've lost a lot of models but I've not lost as much killing power vs most of the really damaging stuff opponents might bring against Space Marines.

 

Comparatively, Intercessors are notably reduced in capacity for each loss they suffer. 7 wounds off a 5 man squad will see the squad with just 2 Bolters, albeit AP-1 Bolters and that makes the squad negligible in offense for most opponents.

 

I know I'd rather have 2 Plasma Guns and a Heavy Bolter over 2 Bolt rifles.

 

Of course the points at this stage are different. If we compare equal Intercessors vs the Tactical squad build I mentioned it would be better:

 

You get 9 Intercessors for 10 Tactical Marines with dual Plasma and heavy Bolter.

 

That's very interesting to compare. 18 wounds vs 10. 7 wounds off the former leaves no doubt that the Intercessors are more durable and able to continue putting out reasonable volumes of fire comparedto the latter.

 

However, against tougher targets the Tactical squad is still superior even with 3 models left compared to the Intercessor 6.

 

Where the Intercessors fall down is alpha striking and Rhinos, as well as multi damage weapons.

 

If you are getting to use the Tactical squads first you'll have great success jumping out of a Rhino and putting pain on targets alongside your army. Intercessors can't do that and are better at marching up the table.

 

Additionally, when that Riptide hits you with 18 S6 AP-2 D2 shots, the Tacticals become the better buy since they can return fire with 4 overcharged plasma and a Heavy Bolter.

 

I'm loving the difference between units since there's a point to both. One is great at consistently plucking away with shots and board control whilst the other has better potential for damage and mobility from Rhinos.

 

***

 

I've found Heavy Bolters for their cost as the best choice for most Tactical Marines

[Prot]

In non competitive situations, you shoul always take your favourite combo and ratio of troops. For me I can’t take less than a squad of scouts, and usually two intercessor squads. I find a 4 point power weapon on a 2 wound, extra attack Sarge makes sense for me. The grenade launchers help a bit in making up for their inefficiencies.

[Grim Dog Studios]

So, a fair bit to reply to it seems. I thank you all for your input though, it is greatly appreciated!

 

I’m sure you could play the power swords as “counts-as” chainswords, especially if they’re just silver and don’t have fancy lightning painted on them. And yes if you’re not worried about being highly competetive, massed infantry is actually really not a bad thing. I would, however, consider combat-squading those units sometimes, depending on how many units your opponent has.

 

They're painted up purple, but my friend is not all that bothered about little things liker this so I can try it! On the subject of combat squadding, would you combat squad prior to the game so in the army list it is 2 units with a sergeant each, or would you use the combat squadding stratagem. I only ask as we normally play power level so this changes the costing of the tactical squad from 9 PL to 10 PL if taken as two units.

 

I don't think 3 full tactical squads is too much in a casual setting but I agree combat squadding them into 6 x 5 man squads might be better in certain games.

You're much less likely to fail a morale check with 5 man Ultras squads thanks to the +1 leadership. You'll also be in a better position to grab objectives.

And yes Scouts are good, and I used to use a couple of squads of them, but I am slowly coming around to the idea that Tactical Squads are better to bulk out your troops selection. Certainly in Power Level games I'd choose Tacs over Scouts every time, not so much in matched play.

 

If you don't mind me asking, how do you generally use your scouts. I am not opposed to using them, I've just never used them so wouldn't really know how. I'm just stuck in my ways of tactical squads in rhinos as it something I have always done in the years that I have been playing 40K. 

 

So...your basic question (and thread title is): How many troops to run?

 

You then add this:

 

"I've been wondering lately what is the sweet spot for troop choices in certain points levels of games"

 

Now I don't want to put words in your mouth or assume ideas, but it sounds like your doing a bit of optimization there, which suggests increasing the competitiveness of your army.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.   But the original question "How many troops to run" can only be answered if we really know/understand your priorities.

 

If you really are just looking for fun/good times, there really isn't a proper answer. Do you like your 3 full man sized tactical squads? If so, then that is the right number of troops!  I say this as someone who is profoundly fond of tactical marines as well. 

 

I appreciate your comments! It was less of a "What should I do?" question, and more aimed at if there was a general solution to if there was a certain amount of troops that you should take when playing different point games. For example I remember in previous editions etc people would say things like for every 500 points you should take a tactical squad and things like that. I was just wondering if there was a guideline for 8th, even with it's incredibly variety in what units you can take now and the many ways you can take them as in some detachments you don't even need to take a troops tax like you once did.

 

I always take 3 Tactical squads as they fill out my army nicely. I take 2 full units to give me some numbers for board control and a 5 man unit to act as additional support

I regret I haven't the points for more than 25 but that's not an issue since I have plenty of additional numbers in the other infantry I take (elites). If I had a list with less than the numbers I have now from Elites I'd probably increase the number of Tactical Marines to compensate.

 

Depending on the day I will also only take 25. I find that sometimes my backfield unit never gets touched and so having a full unit of 10 is a waste of points. It is quite amusing to me however as when I read your posts about tactics etc Idaho I find I play in a very similar way. Perhaps it is the Ultramarine in us both  .

 

Something I’ve found with 10-man tactical squads (and 10-man devastators, as it happens) is that my opponents delay shooting at them because they take a fair bit of effort to kill, and most of that goes into removing the basic bolter guys.

It’s much harder to wipe a full squad off the board, or off an objective, and when an opposing squad’s firepower knocks off two bolters, with another eight men to go (and another five before you start hurting the good weapons), that can be a bit disheartening for the other side.

 

I must concur in that my 10 man tacticals are very hard to remove. As said, my main opponent enjoys playing an Ork horde list and its quite surprising how few marines he actually removes during the game with his Boyz. If hes charging towards me with a 30 boy unit I often focus fire and whittle them down that by the time they reach my tactical squad I may have lost about 3 marines to 25 boyz which are removed shortly with a round of combat.

Because of their difficulty to remove it's normally quite easy to hold objectives that I have already captured and so he will attack my other big threat units leaving the marines happily in place.

 

I accept that primaris marines give as many wounds for less points, although that advantage diminishes if they come under fire from multiple damage weapons.

Centurion Jay was asking about a 30k-style force, which I guess precludes the primaris guys anyway. And as a more direct answer to the question, my own experience is that a couple of full-size tactical squads are generally more useful than several smaller ones, because of their more concentrated firepower, better durability, and because I can move them both using just two rhinos.

On the downside, they don’t cover as much ground as combat squads or scouts, so there’s that.

 

Playing a 30k-style force does limit me in what I can take/do I admit. I would still be playing 7th Edtion if I had actual heresy-era opponents but I am quite glad that I don't as 8th is a much better ruleset in my opinion. I can only hope the HH stuff eventually gets 8th edition rules but that is likely a ways off if at all.

[Tamiel]

It is worthwhile to note that 10-man tactical squads get more benefit from the "Scions of Guilliman" stratagem. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

5 man Tactical squads with a combi plasma and lascannon are competitive as far as I’m concerned.

It is worthwhile to note that 10-man tactical squads get more benefit from the "Scions of Guilliman" stratagem.

 

Plasma Inceptors benefit the most... throwing down 2d3 plasma shots per Inceptor... one of the most competitive units in the codex.

[Captain Idaho]

If you have Inceptors then yes they can make use of that Strategum. If you don't then the boost to Tactical Marines is solid.

[UnkyHamHam]

I have been attempting a 2/2/2 build of Scouts/Tacs/Intercessors. This let's me build for either a double battalion or Brigade and brings plenty of options. Here's my setup, not super optimal, and some of it is holdover from previous editions.

 

5x scouts - shotguns, combi-flamer, in a Storm

5x scouts - snipers, cloaks

10x Tacs - plas, Combi-plas, Heavy Bolter

10x Tacs - plas, Combi-plas, Missile Launcher

5x Intercessors - bolt rifles, sword, AGL

5x Intercessors - bolt rifles, sword, AGL

 

It is a lot of points in troops, but it brings options for everything. Been thinking of adding another HB and ML to my scouts for Strategem redundancy. Love those mortal wounds.

[Captain Idaho]

I quite like it actually!

[UnkyHamHam]

I wanted to add that I will usually combat squad the Tac Squads and throw all special/combis in a Rhino together. And leave the HB and ML teams on objectives for fire support.

[Cruor Vault]

I wanted to add that I will usually combat squad the Tac Squads and throw all special/combis in a Rhino together. And leave the HB and ML teams on objectives for fire support.

If you're using combat squads on the Tactical Marines, why not just bring 2x 5-man units? 

 

5 of them in a Tactical Squad and the other 5 in a Devastator Squad.  That way you get a second Sergeant and the heavy weapon gets a +1 to hit, all for the low low cost of 0 extra points!

[UnkyHamHam]

 

 

I wanted to add that I will usually combat squad the Tac Squads and throw all special/combis in a Rhino together. And leave the HB and ML teams on objectives for fire support.

If you're using combat squads on the Tactical Marines, why not just bring 2x 5-man units?

 

5 of them in a Tactical Squad and the other 5 in a Devastator Squad. That way you get a second Sergeant and the heavy weapon gets a +1 to hit, all for the low low cost of 0 extra points!

I like it, and I definitely considered it. It's commonly brought up in these kinds of threads. Honesty, I have two reasons of which one is legitimate.

 

First, it's fluffy to have full Tactical Squads. But, secondly, I find there are actually games where I wish I had 10 man units. I find it nice to keep the option. There is no denying that your suggestion is probably optimal. Thanks for the feedback!

[Kallas]

The biggest draw of 2x5 man Tacticals (in my opinion) is the much faster filling of Battalion/Brigade detatchments, to net you more CP.

[Captain Idaho]

That and 4 special weapons in a Rhino ;)

[UnkyHamHam]

The biggest draw of 2x5 man Tacticals (in my opinion) is the much faster filling of Battalion/Brigade detatchments, to net you more CP.

I just wish there were more strats worth their weight in our book. I know that sentiment is echoed throughout these forums.