Legions Imperial Support

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Is there any information regarding the Imperial units assigned to support the legions? Specifically I'm trying to find out if they would wear the colors of the legions they were assigned to?

[carlisimo]

They generally would not, like in Legion and Know No Fear.

 

Legion serfs would be in legion colors, and they would play a major role in boarding actions involving legion ships. There may also be units created by certain legions, particularly the Ultramarines and maybe Word Bearers, that would use their colors. (Check Betrayer). I don’t think they’d count as Imperial Army, and I’d say that units didn’t dress up as marines when on temporary assignments with them.

[rendingon1+]

Generally army regs had their own colours and style but some more crazed regiments (mainly on rebel side) often worshipped their Legion overlords and incorporated some legion stuff in their heraldry, uniforms or armament.

[Hesh Kadesh]

As awesome as the legions were, these were still their own regiments with their own battle honours and legacy and martial respect. They may want to adopt campaign markings to show that they fought alongside a particular legion, say perhaps one with a Lightning Strike or an Ultra symbol, if they fight with the Scars or Ultras.

 

If they are a long term attachment, they may, if they are willing, adopt iconography or colour scheme of the legion, alongside tactical tendencies; a Night Lords legion attachment might pick up Horror tactics, an IF attachment tendency to rely on Fortifications, or another might adapt to being an anvil which the Alpha Legion Harrowmasters would use their Manoeuvre Battle Groups, or World Eater attachments are heavy artillery focussed to allow the legions the chance to get to the chewy bits inside, and also put themselves at the furthest possible distance from the legion cohorts.

 

It's also a very wide world/galaxy. Certain units may wish to appropriate legionary aspects as a form of respect; units on Ultramar, or Fenris in particular due to how integral the legion is to their way of life.

[bluntblade]

The Iron Warriors did keep their own auxiliary forces. SoH/Luna Wolves had some Cthonian Solar Auxilia at their beck and call besides the Byzant Janissaries. The Wolves used their Kaerls, and I know the Iron Hands have similar forces in 40K.

[Gorgoff]

The Iron Warriors did keep their own auxiliary forces.

Untill their human ressources where depleted and had to be replenished. ;)

[Bloody Legionnaire]

More focused question, then. I have a Voss Pattern Lightning that I am using to support my Isstvan 3 era World Eaters. I was initially going to paint it in the World Eaters blue and white, and maybe include a small World Eaters marking to identify that's who he supports... but I don't know how accurate that would be. 

[Sandlemad]

In some cases receiving the right to bear legion colours or a legion badge was an honour. Think of that battle robot in The First Heretic. It was inducted, which is a specific sort of honour unlikely to be extended to a mortal, but perhaps you could add a stripe or a section of WE blue and white on the wings? Or even just the legion symbol. There's knights who incorporate legion icons into their personal heraldry. Your auxilia might not have such a developed system of livery but it could be a useful indicator.

 

Or maybe go more specific; Lotarra Sarin in Betrayer received the bloody handprint, so maybe some of the WE honours could be worth adding. The chains are based around killing a superior WE officer in a duel and the chained hound is tied to the Night of the Wolf so they don't seem too fitting... Red streaks? On a helm they are meant to imitate the nails so on a particular fighter maybe they indicate that the pilot has shown savagery worthy of note by the legionaries he supports?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

cool man, thanks for the information. I'll have to look through and see what the standard Imperial colors are then.

[Laughingman]

The Night lords had mortal fighter/bomber crews in Prince of crows, not really sure if they were actually part of the legion or navel-auxlia wing assigned to the Nightfall...

 

In Hellreach a air support wing who spent time supporting black templars in a previous crusade were allowed to mark several of their aircraft with the heraldic cross. Maybe the tradition goes back to the great crusade, valiant duty of mortal crew and machines may have been rewarded with some sort of legion honor, maybe not the legion symbol itself, but something less, perhaps  some obscure symbol taken from  nucerian gladiator tradition.

[bluntblade]

More focused question, then. I have a Voss Pattern Lightning that I am using to support my Isstvan 3 era World Eaters. I was initially going to paint it in the World Eaters blue and white, and maybe include a small World Eaters marking to identify that's who he supports... but I don't know how accurate that would be.

 

To be honest that sounds fine. The World Eaters struggled to maintain their attention spans towards the Heresy, which would interfere with things like piloting fighter craft, so I figure serf forces would pick up the slack.

[Kizzdougs]

The Emperor's Children had the Archite Palatines, but they wore their own colours (red and silver). I've often thought about building some myself. They'd be great for a sacrificial offering list.

 

This is how I painted a Lightning to go with my Emperor's Children. I imagine that it's crewed by a Legion serf or some indentured Imperial pilot.

[Lord Marshal]

The Chthonian Headhunters used the Justaein colours, interestingly enough.

[bluntblade]

It turns out the Iron Warriors created their mortal "Thorakata" in the wake of Olympia, using them to police their dominions more than anything else.

[Ryltar Thamior]

iiirc the Iron Warriors' mortal auxilia took the whole thing far enough that their armour is directly described as being a direct imitation of their Astartes overlords - right down to the helmets looking quite like Mk.IV, if memory serves.

I also *think* there's an example given of a Solar Auxilia formation that's connected to the Ultramarines possessing a very similar colour palette, so there's that. 

There's also attestation in atleast one of the Black Books for non-Astartes allied forces picking up elements of Legion heraldry due to long proximity together. I think it's an Ordo Reductor badge that's shown halved with some Legion emblem that I'm thinking of; although I'm now attempting to remember whether there were any, say, Knight Houses cited which bore similar hybridization - or even direct coterminous colour schemes with 'their' Astartes. 

although at the same time, any number of examples of long-term support arrangements that *haven't* seemingly resultend in either strong hybridization or direct colour-scheme cross-over , can probably spring to mind. The Therian Cohort we see near the Raven Guard, for instance, being red and gold or something . [it'd also be interesting, come to think of it, to have a supporting force of non-Astartes done up in a given Legion's pre-Primarch contact/rebranding colours, thus represenitng *just how long* the've been with said legion - and their not being allowed to 'patch over' with the Legion itself due to somebody thinking htem unworthy as 'mere mortals' perahps] 

In any case, it's probably worthwhile to note what colour schemes are used for in the first place - both in and out of universe. 

In-universe, they're at least partially there for easy identification [and, for that matter, esprit de corps , arguably]. And given that the Heresy's such a chaotic time *anyway*, it hardly makes sense to be adding to the confusion by having small groups of long-term non-Astartes support elements be done up in significantly different colours to the Legion they're attached to - if only because it rather dramatically increases the potentail scope for friendly fire incidences if/when that legion finds iself fighting alongside *other* traitor [or whatever] legions - who may react with a "shoot first, ask questions later" approach to any significantly fast-moving target in their airspace/voidspace that's not quick enough to do the appropriate things with its RFID tags or something. 

Much easier to have it in Legion colours.

Obviously, as applies particular bodies fo troops that are long-standing in their uniform colours and reasonabl well-known, this is much less likely to happen. Both sides of hte conflict will know , generally , who these guys are and whether they're friend or foe without having to wait for them to start shooting at you. [although this being hte Heresy, you might very well find even rather prominent and veteran Crusade regiments splitting down the middle with some going one way, and others the other] ; although with aircraft, I imagine that it's a bit different due to the smaller degree of prominence given to their formations, the possibilitiy of vehicular camouflage rather than 'loud and proud' heraldry , panoply etc. , and suchlike. 

Now as applies the *out of universe* reasoning ... you want your army to look like an army. Or two detachments or whatever fighting alongside one another that are nevertheless in-universe separate . The aesthetics therefore, would suggest that if you don't go for a *direct* World Eaters scheme on your Lightning, then it would probably be a decent idea to find a 'complementary' colour-scheme which helps to establish a visual relationship even if it's not *directly* the same. 

Otherwise, you run the risk of it looking like you've plonked a random model in from a friend's collection or something. 

[an alternative, middle-ground appraoch mgiht be coming up with a unique campaign badge incorporating conquest fleet number and such to be shared between your XIIth and your Allies to represent what they are] 


Now as far as it goes, I really do like the idea of Mortal Auxilia wearing gear (and indeed, honour-markings, where appropriate - whether bestowed by other mortals or by the Marines themselves for particular deeds of exceptional martial valour etc.] that visually recalls that of their Astartes. The mortal auxilia for my loyalist Iron Warriors are done up in leadbelcher and brassy gold, with the same skin-tones shared between the humans and their trans-human comrades, as well as a certain hard-bitten (trench-fighting?) aesthetic . The Remembrancer contingent, meanwhile, has been painted in black and yellow to recall the Iron Warriors' chevrons, but has different skin-tones and rather more fancy-looking clothing etc. etc.; and the mortal shipmaster has been given an Astartes pattern of chainsword that bears IVth legion chevrons in recognition of those aforementioned "worthy of an Astartes" tier deeds in combat. 

There's also a very nice Macragge PDF force done by a chap who goes by StraightSilver [might be a space in there] which, while it's 40k rather htan 30k, is going to be a bit of an inspiration visually for my own Ultramar Auxilia. [There's a picture of a Calth trooper on one of the books with Thiel on the cover iirc, tryna remember colours] 

Getting back t your Lightning .. one thing you *could* do , whether or not you go for a standard XIIth colour scheme on it , might be visual cues that emphasize who and what it's fighting alongside in less direct ways. For example, rather htan the bloody marks on the helmet [or in addition to them, who knows], could have 'em along the wings which're otherwise just plain white - helping to rperesent, perhaps, an escalating madness and blood-fixation that's taking hold in the WOrld Eaters' mortal allies at a far swifter rate than one might presume coz they're mortal rather than Astartes and therefore weaker of mind. Daub some Chaotic sigils on there maybe, dpeendnet upon how far the corruption's gone? 

Or, you could do the old standard of Nose-Art if you're feeling up to a freehand, and have your lightning symbolically devouring a planetoid in a mouth that stretches all across the frontal fuselage. This owuld leave no doubt that it as a "World Eater" supportcraft, even if you painted it in very different colours to what people would be expecting for XIIth themselves. 

[bluntblade]

Ryltar, where's that bit from about the IW Auxilia?

[Ryltar Thamior]

Ryltar, where's that bit from about the IW Auxilia?

Hm, I *think* it's mentioned in the first bit of Angel Exterminatus - the part where the narrative viewpoint's heading into the command bunker, and walks past some. Selucid Thorakites, they appear to be called. 

 

In any case, here be an illustration produced by B&C's own hugely talented Iron Hands Fanatic which illustrates how they've seen the concept. [i'd thoroughly recommend a trawl through that log, as there are several other Mortal Auxilia formations envisaged, as well as quite a bit of well thought out additions to various other (predominantly, butn ot exclusively) Legion forces). 

 

 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Yeah I've done a lot of thinking about what the different Legions' dedicated Auxilia forces might look like / how they'd operate - I even have some rough drafts of army lists, but they tend to sit in a tricky position of being a bit too unusual to just be an adaptation of the Solar Auxilia / Imperialis Militia lists, but don't necessarily justify a list from scratch.

[Paradigm]

Where does it say that Lightnings are never crewed by astartes? I know that they mention servitors, and that humans can pilot the toned-down version, but I gathered the impression that there were also Astartes pilots. Especially when you see lightnings in legion colors in the HH books, and it mentions the Xiphon is a design that is being replaced.

I also can't think of any other unit in the main army list that doesn't have an astartes at the helm.

[Dantay VI]

Lightnings are Astartes crewed. I just did mine without using Legion colours because I though the old man wanted to start a guard army, so we could both use it (plus ally for 40K)

 

The Falchion is not Astartes crewed and you pay the upgrade to give it a Space marine crew. Stromblades and Fellblades are also not crewed by Marines and you pay the upgrade.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Lightnings are Astartes crewed. I just did mine without using Legion colours because I though the old man wanted to start a guard army, so we could both use it (plus ally for 40K)

 

The Falchion is not Astartes crewed and you pay the upgrade to give it a Space marine crew. Stromblades and Fellblades are also not crewed by Marines and you pay the upgrade.

 

You know what, I didn't even think about lightnings being crewed by Astartes as a possibility. I guess I'm good to paint it up in World Eaters colors, then. 

[Dantay VI]

A relatively recent addition to the armouries of the Great Crusade, the Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter is a high-speed sub-orbital fighter craft designed for high-speed interception, interdiction and surgical-strike roles. Created by the Archmagos- Arbiter Sykosk Thule, master of the sovereign Forge World of Voss, the Primaris-Lightning represented a new paradigm in aero-warcraft, being built around a powerful forced-plasma ramjet drive and optimised for the most sophisticated munitions and avionics systems available.

 

While exceeding all similar patterns in service of its size for speed and payload capacity, it was extremely costly to produce, proved difficult to maintain and difficult to handle by all but the most experienced pilots — flaws Sykosk attributed purely to the failure of weak flesh.

 

These factors, however, saw the pattern’s issue limited to the elite close-support units of the most well resourced Legions and the Mechanicum itself, and while a ‘degraded’ – if more easy to operate and maintain – version of the Lightning was rumoured to be under consideration just prior to the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, this reduced pattern paid no part in the conflict

[Marshal Rohr]

Lightings will be crewed by whatever you want them to be crewed by. Same with ground vehicles.

[Paradigm]

I've had a lot of friends that refuse to take them, because they want a "pure" legion list. It's been a running, if good-natured argument for a minute at my flgs.

 

I have a hard time convincing them, as I take a lot of Mechanicum allied units and legion inductii in my lists. So it's been a, "Yeah, but you have thalaxii in legion colors in your lists, so...." kind of back and forth. They aren't actually too bad of nitpickers really, but we pull no punches when it comes to friendly ribbing.

Now I've got a little more ammo.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Cases for the Lightning-P to be piloted by Astartes;

- They're in the SM Crusade List

- They were introduced in Book 2, in the LACAL units, as opposed to the mechanicum ones

- They're BS4

- They're the only non-Astartes Flyers available to the LACAL which cannot take Space Marine Crew

- Access to Rad Missiles, only otherwise accessible to Legion Destroyers

 

Cases against

- It's also available to Mechanicum

- ?