A Bone To Pick: Traitor Gene-Seed

[Fat Necron]

Greetings chaps, I've come here today with a bit of a dilemma. You see I read and enjoy homebrews of Chaos aligned factions, however, there seems to a reoccurring issue; Where do they get gene-seed? Personally I don't care about those minute details, I'm there for story and, hopefully, something on the gray spectrum. Despite that you'll have people comment about gene-seed, say their numbers can't be above how many hundred, yadda yadda yadda. To me, it feels like there's this inert desire to thwart the presumed bad guys be it lore or homebrew. However, I could be wrong and said commenter could just be asking general questions. Either or I'm beginning to see a pattern of stagnation. People will question equipment, gene-seed, consistently grill and grill. And again I'm not ruling out the fact some might be genuinely curious it's becoming rather bothersome to scroll through.

 

So I've sat on this for a few days debating with myself whether or not gene-seed and equipment are in such scarce supplies. At first glance it would seem so, however, we're comparing them to the structured Imperium on a constant basis. They could easily begin building legions, dedicating forge temples to Astartes equipment, ect ect... But what about the Traitors?

 

You see they're not restrained by Imperium mandates. Where a Chapter may only be allowed one-thousand active Marines, more in special cases, Traitors don't have that restriction. And this doesn't only apply to the Traitor Marines but other Traitor Factions, as well. So lets say a Mechanicus Adapt has a fantastic idea but it includes a pinch of innovation; it'll remain an idea for eternity. Now lets take a Dark Mechanicus Adept has the same idea; it'll happen. There might be some bumps around the road, such as Warp non-sense but I doubt it'll be explicitly terrible. The Dark Adapt removes a power cell from a las-rifle, inspects its construction, discovers a pinch of innovation can get it a better charge and thus, new power cells. 

 

Presented there is a decent example of the differences between Imperium dogma compared to Traitor ingenuity; they have a lot more wiggle room.

 

Before I get the Warp spiel about it immediately possessing innovation I feel compelled to address something; it's a reflection of our thoughts and emotions. The Adapt building the new cell doesn't do so with inherent malicious intent, more-so curiosity. He/She'll innovate and create, furthering himself from his religious dogma. The Warp entities that may or may not appear is up for interpretation. I think, and this could be a stretch, the machine spirits in question wouldn't be entirely opposed to this. We often read about them being murderous pricks, so a larger tank barrel to murder isn't necessarily a bad thing. And the Daemons, mmm... That's another matter. Again, I don't believe they'll be these shark toothed monsters ripping out his/her eyes. Where he/she's acting upon innovation I'm leaning towards a Tzeetchian daemon or variant, something that'll inspire the adapt. His/her ambition would have a very minute flicker in the warp- small but one none the less. 

 

I've related more to Mechanicum in terms of differences and Warp effect but it was just easier. Still, those examples there are to illustrate my case for why Traitor Marines could be more numerous and less constricted.

 

An example in an Ultramarines Novel depicts a creation known as the Daemonculaba. This rather morbid fusion of warp powers and material science allowed the Iron Warriors to create new Marines, it's also a demonstration of Traitor Ingenuity. What this represents is different avenues of Astarte's creation beyond the norm. Granted, most creations may not be perfect replica's of Loyal Astarte's but Astarte's none the less.

 

So, with that in mind lets explore a few possibilities I've come up with myself.

 

Pseudo-Rubric Marines

The first is perhaps a poor, grimmer replica of Rubric Marines. The idea here is a mass production of gene-seed, cloning genetic material from previous Astarte's to reverse engineer their biology. We'd have an ambitious Biologus (Spelling?) replicating the implantations while manufacturing grown gene-seed. These wouldn't be nearly perfect but suitable replica's to serve a purpose. What must be stated is we don't know exactly if the Emperor discovered the knowledge to create Astarte's from the Warp Gods or not, so lets throw in some kinks. I'm personally of the opinion no man/woman/xeno's should surpass the Emperor's creations. (Still in deep denial of Primaris Space Marines and refuse to accept them)

Gene-seed grown on mass would eventually wither away over time, never producing resilient progenoid glands. Lets snow ball it and say they live a few hundred years give'er take before organ failures begin to kick in. We'd have apothocaries or other specialists begin implanting artificial lungs, amputating clubbed hands, diligently trying to rectify these issues. All the while, said Astarte's are enduring agony and despair, eventually becoming entombed in their suits.

 

Lets say with all these nasty surgeries, organ failures and mutations the inevitable end is still in sight; perhaps not. This is where we include a dash of Warp magic the Traitors so very much relish and depend on. The Astarte's mute agony and despair has, like all thoughts and emotions, had a flicker in the warp. We'll add to the equation and bring the Power Armors machine spirit into this. Said machine spirit has carried this being now entombed in it, felt his every emotion and knows its eventual end is close at hand. However, this doesn't need to be the case. What if there was a symbiosis similar to what Lorgar talked about, between humans and daemons? What if the Power Armor eventually became the Astarte's, maybe even being convinced it was the Astarte's. Inside would be a withered husk of a man yet it'd act and function as if alive and well.

 

Maybe a stretch in some ways but, to me, perfectly feasible. 

 

Another path towards gene-seed is more singular, through devotion. 

 

Hatchery of Nurgle

Nurgle is an odd god at the best of times. He feels compelled to share his gifts with the universe and see us thrive in delusional bliss. Unlike that sadist Khorne or that deviant Slaanesh, he genuinely cares and loves his followers, and in saying that, there's always those who'd wish harm upon his followers. He'd eagerly send his daemons but that's a whole other dilemma. The veil between the materium and immaterium needs to be thinned and tampered with which isn't always the case. So how do you defend your most pious of followers, those masses who've taken your gifts with glee and tell stories to their children about Grand Father's love? Welp, we visit his chosen legion The Death Guard.

 

We can all agree that Astarte's are recognized as some of the galaxies hardest hitting guys around. I can't think of anything man made (I think that's an apt phrase?) that tops them.(Still denying Primaris!) We get a few Plague Marines, a sprinkle of warp magic and create a sort of hatchery. Where Nurgle promotes life in all forms, even the more disgusting ones, it plays to his strength. Perhaps a little botanical, even insect-like but we're exploring here.

Anyway, the zealous followers of Nurgle might give up their young to the Hatchery. They trust in their chosen deity, love him and revere him as a savior. These families giving up their children believe they'll be the chosen sons of Nurgle. Say a Plague Marine inspects the young, ensures the family they originate from are truly devote and selects via physical capability and faith. These children will be entered into a sort of cocoon where something similar to a butterfly will emerge... A very ugly, smelly but equally terrifying butterfly with no wings. The child will be remade into a similar being as the chosen Plague Marines used to provide the genetic material for this hatchery. Say those Marines had a defining set of antlers, specific disease, they'd inherit it and possibly other features.

 

Again, these aren't actual Marines. No man can replicate the Emperor's work and I doubt the gods can either. So the flaws in these Marines wouldn't physical as it'd be more mental. They weren't conditioned from the start, only created through a sort of metamorphosis. These Plague Marines would undoubtedly be more human, more prone to acts of compassion, hesitant to immediately slay an innocent, maybe even lack the killer instinct Loyal Astarte's have driven into their psyche. I do think these grown Marines would eventually become jaded to this but only veterans would, and even then, some might never achieve that killer instinct... Oh and don't forget they're huge and fat and waddle across the battle field.

 

With everything said and done I'm not intentionally trying to flaunt my creative, I'm only trying to inspire creativity. Strike at me if you will but god damn I'm tired of people chewing out Chaos homebrews. The Imperium is fractured broken bureaucratical hell hole, so god knows what's happening out there. Of the millions, if not billions of distress calls being sent out I'll wager 1% is being addressed and that's being generous. So Chaos lovers abuse that, use it, explore the impossible Warp non-sense and lavish in the limitless ingenuity we're so graciously blessed with.

I implore anyone to share and discuss other possibilities of creating Traitor Marines, whether it be through material means, immaterial means or a mixture of both!

[Tarvek Val]

At the same time, it's important to remember that the Chaos Marines no longer play by the rules, per se. You've got guys like Fabius Bile performing all kinds of crazy experiments; everything from attempting to create new forms of superhumans to genetic cloning to experimenting upon gene-seed itself (both that of the Chaos Marines and that of gene-seed that has been captured from loyalist Chapters). He has an entire conclave of former apothecaries as well, who are dedicated to exploring the mysterious of the human physiology and how it can be augmented by dark science and daemonic technologies. I mean, he even managed to clone some of the primarchs (though these clones were by no means perfect), so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that he is capable of whipping up a batch of Chaos Marines (or their equivalents, such as the New Men) every once in awhile.

 

Also, I think you hit the nail on the head when you brought up the Daemonculaba and Honshu's experiments with creating new Iron Warriors. The Chaos Marines aren't limited to "the old ways". The examples you thought of are quite good, and it just shows how many ways the Chaos Marines can replenish their numbers without access to regular supplies of gene-seed.

 

As a final note, gene-seed can always be stolen / plundered from loyalist Chapters. I'm sure the Red Corsairs in particular have a hardy stash stored up in their hideouts and fortresses, and I'm sure Huron would be willing to strike a bargain with anyone desperate or foolish enough to do so...

[Conn Eremon]

There are both benefits and consequences to betraying the Imperium and existing within the Eye of Terror. Gene-seed scarcity is frankly the easiest way to show what kind of consequences there could be. This is Warhammer 40k; constantly stuck at near-death is the status quo for both sides of the playing field.

 

What we know of gene-seed implantation and replication is that it is a very involved process, takes a large amount of time, and burns through viable stock to produce relatively few successes. The Imperium, in spite of all its rules and restrictions, provides its Chapters with the infrastructure necessary to make it work on a consistent basis. Loyalists will always have Mechanicus support due to long-established law, though how far that support extends may certainly vary by wide margins. Chapters are granted worlds whose populations were extensively screened for purity, and are able to test, implant and train recruits in relative safety in fortress-monasteries. This is the benefit to remaining loyal, with the consequence of having to obey these rules and restrictions to their detriment as an effective fighting force.

 

For Chaos Marines, that infrastructure is near non-existent. This isn't just how DIYers tend to portray warbands, but how GW and affiliates do as well. Trained apothecaries (or Chaos-equivalents) are a rarity. The Dark Mechanicus is bound to no laws, and so the warband must find the means to either take what they need or barter for it. There is very little "pure" stock of humans to recruit from, and few warbands can say their home base is as stable as a fortress-monastery, meaning that their attrition rate of failed aspirants must be dramatically higher than loyalists'. It's a big flaw that the Imperial loyalists don't share, but likewise the Chaos warbands have strengths that the loyalists are restricted from, most notably that they are restricted only by their own strength.

 

In both cases, there are plenty of exceptions. Imperial bureaucracy does get in the way. And Chaos warbands do have unique ways to make up for this shortcoming. That said, the two big examples used, Fabius Bile and the Daemonculabas, are very much exceptions to the rules rather than examples. Fabius Bile is an incredibly powerful Chaos Lord whose favor other Lords court, rather than the typical warband which is on the other end of that spectrum. Honsou has a mini-legion warband even before he began to experiment with the daemonculaba, which says a lot to his own influence and the stability within which he could work. The failure rate of his daemonculaba was also atrociously high, which itself says a lot about what kind of experiments lesser lords would be attempting themselves. The Red Corsairs, during the time when GW was more concentrating on the idea of warbands over legions, was second only to the Black Legion. These are great examples of what Chaos warbands can do, but they're not indicative of the average warband, which most DIYs tend to be. An average warband that is likelier to be the size of a loyalist company than a multi-chapter force. They are, after all, constantly fighting and struggling for resources and to protect what is already theirs, while a loyalist, in general, does not.

 

All this doesn't mean that DIY warbands can't come up with ways to continue to create more Chaos Marines. And there are other ways to show the consequences of being a Warband just like there are other ways to show the consequences of being a Chapter other than being forced into a rigid structure. I would warn not to approach the level of means that the likes of Bile and Honsou have, as that's the Chaos equivalent of comparing your Chapter Master to Marneus Calgar or your flagship to the Phalanx. DIYs that are that special are just as uninteresting. But it certainly can and does happen.

 

One of my favorite ways to show this consequence is similar to the ideas you came up with yourself. The detriment lies in the nature of the process rather than the lack of a process. I really only have two warbands with which I have explored the means in which they grow in strength: the Eyes of Tivan and the Jade Brotherhood.

 

The Eyes of Tivan is effectively a warband of possessed Marines. They worship the blood gods, daemonic essences bound into obsidian stones about the size of a human fist, that are left suspended in vats of gene-seed (stolen or recovered). They carve out the hearts of unwilling victims, and place the stone into the cavity. The victim either dies a painful death, whereupon the stone is recovered, or is transformed by the experience. The end result is not quite a Space Marine, not quite the Possessed, but something in-between. Their attrition rate is stupendously high, but that doesn't matter to them. If thousands are sacrificed upon the plinths so that one more of their own could rise, that's a cheap trade. There's far more involved than just this, but I don't mean to dive into their whole story.

 

The Jade Brotherhood, or the Akh'naton, is a small cabal of Chaos Sorcerers with a decent contingent of Rubric Marines to their name. They grow their host by siphoning off the Rubric Marines of the recently slain, whether by their own hand or as vultures circling overhead. They do not, however, replace the loss of Sorcerers. So while they may be capable of replacing their own losses, and potentially even grow stronger themselves if capable of accumulating enough Rubric Marines, they have nevertheless stagnated.

[Fat Necron]

Tarvek Val: I've not read any of the Fabius Bile books but I've poked at him via the Lexicanum and read about him in forums. So here's a sudden rant your spurred by bringing him up. I'm just sticking them in spoilers as I keep falling into the rabbit hole as I try to reply to this topic.
 

Fabius Bile keeps coming up where ever I post this for one reason or another. I’m aware he’s cloning Astarte’s even cooking up Primarch’s. Fabius is another story entirely from what I’m referring to. He’s a pre-existing character from the Heresy-Era who had the privilege of studying Primarch physiology. We can immediately assume throwing together implants, gene-seed and whatever biological non-sense is child’s play. This is the same guy who studied under the Haemonculis (Spelling?) Covens and had a hand in constructing the Tower of Flesh. 

Why I didn’t refer to him and only mentioned the Daemonculaba is there’s a difference between them; One knows the process top to bottom while the other is trial and error; ingenuity. Not every Warband has access to Fabius’s expertise let alone know who the hell he is. So while the lore may condense the 40K galaxy via its lore the galaxy is still a remarkably vast realm. The Eye of Terror itself encompasses a considerable portion of real space so say a Warband ventured in there, there’s a chance they’ll never even hear about this Fabius character. I’m certain they’ll run into fellow traitors, nasty daemons, fanatical cultists but one character in particular… Ehh, I’m not holding my breath.

 

With all that said and done I’m not deterring anyone from dabbling in a similar character. Fabius is a special case, for obvious reasons but that doesn’t mean geneticists can’t exist in other Warbands. There’s a Chapter known as the Black Dragon’s where it’s rumored the Apothocaries encourage a particular mutation in the bone growth gland (Can’t think of the name off the top of my head). As we can see the result, some Black Dragon’s have bone protrusion from their forearms and horns jutting from their temples. 

Granted this is all speculation and a rumor this doesn’t take away from the final result right before our eyes. The evidence itself states there are ways to influence organs involved in the Space Marine making process. Another fantastic tool of ingenuity Chaos Warbands have to play with but sadly isn’t utilized enough. That said, I need to refer to Conn’s response to me regarding the shattered infrastructure.

That's what bothers me about some Warbands; they attempt to play by the rules. Lets say there's a warzone where plenty of Space Marines died and evidently lost. Have a Warband swoop in like the carrion vultures to salvage all viable gene-seed and equipment. Restore power armor, strip clips of every last bolt round, the works. And how does that seem unreasonable? Given that one side is presumably on the cusp of defeat, slaughtering what remains, perhaps even making a deal isn't out of the question. That bit is left up to the writer. Still, right there that warzone could provide invaluable pure gene-seed and equipment... And again, it's not within impossibility. However, given the lore, you'll be hard pressed to find Space Marines lose that badly. Hehe (Copious amounts of sarcasm implied)
 

Man just ask and I can come up with half a dozen more examples off the top of my head. Maybe someone will poke in an actual use them. I actually encourage people to grab up on the idea's I've already thrown out there!

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Conn Eremon: So my first reply to you went spiraling out of control into a lengthy, unstoppable rant. I saved that and attempting to actually respond to you. Hehe

The sense of near death, as I'm sure you can tell, seems to be getting more and more glossed over within the lore. The Imperium in particular has its set backs but overall appear to be the dominant presence, lore and fanfiction wise. Space Marine Chapters are made in mass because they're depicted as these gallant hero's, which is all fine and dandy yet it's assumed these same Chapters have access to the entire constellation of Imperial assets. Some Chapters are written with ridiculous fleets, others with Starforts and slaughtering thousands of Traitors without fail. We're constantly fed it again and again while Chaos aligned faction that aren't branch-offs of the current stars are crippled and maimed underdogs. I personally love them being the Underdogs, so no complaints there. Compared to whole chapters cruising in a fleet of star forts, we can considered them crippled and maimed in comparison. 

We could have different perspectives, I wouldn't rule it out but I currently can't agree with the near-death statement on both sides. 

Consequence, you use that word as if it's a bad thing to be trained in a controlled environment. You're not going to have any argument from me, there's a infrastructure in place specifically for loyal Space Marines. However, I wouldn't exactly say that's a consequence by any means. An access to considerable munitions, vehicles assets, recruitment screenings, ect ect isn't exactly a consequence. I could even compare it to our own reality. We work, pay bills and taxes and do what we can to better our lives in the society we live in; the key being Society. We've got our laws to keep us from doing anything crazy like no killing and stealing and this applies to Space Marines. For all the perks of the Imperium they're abiding by the laws in place. A stretch, I know but definitely not a consequence. The pro's smother the cons by a wide margin.

So this is where I fell into a sudden rant about Chaos infrastructure and other random stuff. It's lengthy so I don't mind if you skip this bit.

 

A Random Rant About Chaos Infrastructure

Warband resources are scarce, no one’s arguing with you on that one. What I believe is a failing here is the depiction of Chaos in the lore that undermines many promising aspects. We see them as nomads and raiders, hardly ever are they depicted as anything above that. From what I’ve gathered, Astarte’s are exceptionally intelligent by-products of humans. I doubt they’d act as hastily and recklessly as most Traitor Marines, especially with those living outside the Eye of Terror.

In the book Ravenor Rouge, Inquisitor Ravenor is hunting a dubious Chaos worshiper who illustrates perfectly how more intellectually inclined Chaos worshipers would operate. Yes, he was a special case but it feels right to compare the villain to a Warband Leader or variant. Even then he’s slightly above them but the fact still remains; he is incredibly effective. (Holding off on spoilers)

The Eye of Terror and Malestrom are great safe havens for Traitors while the Warp itself provides an infinite number of possibilities for resources. In that same vein there’s also the risk of madness and mutation. Myself, I believe there’s more than meets the eyes. Anything is possible within the Warp, absolutely anything. It boggles my mind as to why people don’t use and abuse this more often. Both Eye and Malestrom are massive warp anomalies where everything goes. Yea, you could the Red Corsairs or Black Legion would destroy them but I must protest that assumption. Space, in its entirety, is so unfathomably vast. Between both realms I doubt a small Warband would even register on either factions radar for a very long time. Then we throw into the equation of those places being Warp anomalies and we can presume an number of different factors as to why they’re still kicking oodles of backside.

Now we step out of the Eye of Terror and Malestrom and address the Warbands lingering in real space. These are the ones I’m most interested in as I feel they’re woefully under represented. To survive the constant threat of Orks, Tyranids, Imperium and countless threats for centuries is impressive in and of itself. We can attribute their survival to the vastness of space, however, I believe that’s too easy.

 

In the Night Lords Omnibus we’re introduced to a human character known as Septimus. He’s a slave but a remarkable slave or is remarkable too far a stretch? Septimus repairs legion power armor, weapons and armaments. Takes him some time but this single guy does it all within a reasonable span.

 

Okay, I’ve introduced Septimus who’s what is known as an artificer. Not a tech priest but is mechanically inclined. We take this character aspect and apply it elsewhere. 

 

The Imperium is a remarkably awful place to live, err, is when you’re on the more industrious planets. There are forges comprised of millions working from childhood to death at assembly lines or sweltering hot furnaces, to name a few terrible places. However these same places breed what are known as Artificers; mechanically inclined men and women not restricted by Mechanicus dogma. 

Who’s to say traitors don’t linger on these planets, secretly communicating with Traitor Warbands? And I’m aware it’s a stretch but it’s meant to be an example. Warbands outside of the Eye and Malestrom, to me, are remarkably resourceful players in the Long War. Short lived ones not so much but those who’ve stuck around for a few centuries I’d wager have a nice, albeit intricate supply network within the Imperium itself.

To further my point, if I was an indentured slave and looked upon those spikey clad warriors, I wouldn’t see monsters, I’d see freemen. A terrifying concept as freedom is a fantasy but they’re still free to do as they please- If they’re smart about it. The average citizen would relish the chance to strike back, to join their Long War against the Imperium. 

 

Lets take a passage from the introduction to 40K books themselves:

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding for in the grim dark future there is only war.

 

That passage is used within various 40K books describing exactly how terrible the current universe is for humanity. So it's easy, nay, expected that any man, woman and mutant would want to lash out. You'd have Adapts who secretly innovate within their heads, never speaking their idea's aloud for fear of heresy. What the Traitor Marines presents is another path, where innovation is promoted, regardless of repercussions. Humans forced into this bloody regime can strike back at their oppressors. 

Warband resources will always be scarce yet I think there's a plethora of ways to compensate for that. Again, Chaos/Renegade affiliates are presented with a golden opportunity for ingenuity and invention. 

The Average Warband; you got me there. You're not wrong about the average Warband fighting and struggling for resources. While I could present plenty of idea's to supplement those struggles, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be used to any effect. I'm obviously reading too much into this yet I feel it's necessary that someone does. Their struggle and conflict for resources and survival should bare fruit, in character and logistics. Should the average Warband be subjected to the role of Scavenger? I don't think so. That isn't to say there will won't be the bumps down the road I just believe this resource issue shouldn't be the metaphorical noose it's made out to be. We're discussing super humans, both physically and intellectually... But again, we're only discussing them with only the evidence in the lore to back up statements. It's rare we see innovative Warbands but that doesn't rule them out, entirely.... I've fallen way off track and don't even know where I'm going with this. Lets just cross our fingers our epic conversation inspires a few people, so moving on!

Consequences in reference to Warbands are plentiful. I like to think it's how they navigate around these consequences that show their flare not just the typical genocidal maniacs we see. I wouldn't mind reading about Warbands who have one or two, well thought out conflicts where years of planning and stock piling lead to a decisive victory. Those far and in between battles would supply them with precious resources so they can proceed with the next big score... Feels like I'm referring to heist right now. Hehe
God, I'd wager some DIY Chapter writers are concerned about their guys being weak or vulnerable. That same concern leads them down a little mary-sue rabbit hole. Not saying this is all of them but it's noticeable when you read enough of them. I myself had the same problem when writing my own chapter and when I detached myself, they turned out decent. Again, could be wrong but I believe insecurity plays a role in all DIY's. It's easier to make super heroic bad-ass Space Marines who maul everything in sight than a struggling warband. 

 

Funny how your Eyes of Tivan remind me of the Space Wolves. They don't care if the Canishelix (Spelling?) kills a thousand but if one passes, they consider it a win. I'd make the veined attempt to debate such recruitment process but when zealotry is involved, there's no place for logical explanation. Not only that, I'm presuming they're a blend of material and immaterial creatures. I'm going to assume such creatures don't exactly rationalize or depict reality in the same light as us humans. 

Here's a question that might peak your interest; How does Brotherhood maintain their Rubric Marines? Yes, they're shells and I'm certain when they get damaged enough it's easy to throw them away. What I'm curious is if they will recover damaged ones and restore abandoned ones. Is there a process for that, by chance?

[Severus6]

I believe that the simplest method like the vast majority of Chaos forces is to simply steal it when they can and collect it regardless of Legion or Chapter affiliation. There are several examples for this and the mixing of gene-seed holds no great taboo for them. Granted, the vast majority of the traitor legions would want to keep their geneseed pure but if it meant the survival of the Legion and the continuation of the "Long War" against the "False Emperor" then purity be damned.

 

This would go for the stealing of equipment that would help "grow" the newest members of the Fallen Legions...

 

Like every Legion or Chapter, recruitment is a based on availability and opportunity....if you have the resources, both technical and personnel, and the time, then you have the ability to continue on with your merry group of murderers. Failing that, welcome to oblivion...make yourself at home...

 

Sev