Rules Question-Firing from Inside Repressor

[Mossback]

I haven't found a definitive answer to this, but if a Repressor is engaged in close combat, can the squad inside still fire their weapons at the enemy surrounding the vehicle? I think the answer would be no, since you would be firing towards a unit that is engaged in melee. The unit inside the vehicle would not have been nominated for a charge, since they are not on the table, but having them buttoned up and not being able to engage seems like a waste of the Repressor firing ports. At a minimum, I would think that firing pistols would be a good compromise, but having the squad inside able to fire their main weapons (Bolters, Flamers, etc.) would be incredibly useful. I've had my Repressor surrounded by a mob of Orks with no way to exit the squad, and having the squad inside fire their Flamers to cook off the green meat wall would be quite satisfying.  Any thoughts?

[Beams]

You can still fire from the inside, since they aren't locked in combat, but you cannot fire at the squad locking the Repressor in combat.

[Atrus]

Could have the repressor fall back from combat and then fire out of the ports at them.

[Eddie Orlock]

Could have the repressor fall back from combat and then fire out of the ports at them.

Seems reasonable to me. Generalised interpretation I extract from here is that the unit isn't on the table and thus, per the transports side-bar, not affected by things that affect the transport. Unless, of course, the related permission rule states that the embarked unit will be affected.

 

Attendantly, I infer that a squad embarked upon a Repressor that fell back from combat could still fire. It would, however, count as having moved when firing these weapons.

[Margulix]

i think 1d4chan has a good info about repressor.

 

---

Repressor (Forge World): It is a Rhino on crack. Has 6 firing ports, which is a rarity now. Has the option to give it a second heavy flamer or a second storm bolter. Either take none or the storm bolter. The fire power of the Repressor is coming from the embarked squad anyway. If you want to grill stuff, take an Immolator instead. This vehicle is, with dominions, what makes the SoB a decent army in 8th ed, allowing you to release your holy fire without having to expose to enemy fire your frail T3 dudettes. 20pts more since CA, making it best reserved for melta dominions only.

• Neat trick, usable by any transport but even more so repressors : If your vehicle have not advanced in the previous movement phase, it can charge. Useful for either absorbing overwatch (Rhino of repentia/arc-flag/DCA) or simply tie up in CC an enemy shooty unit. With a 24"+D6" move followed by a 2D6" charge, repressors makes great ":cuss your shooting" rams. Moreover...
• Firing ports work so that embarked squads can fire even if the repressor is engaged in combat/have retreated this turn.

[bkde]

Hey, so just to get general consensus on this.

 

Units embarked within a Repressor may fire pistols at the squad engaging the repressor.

 

Units embarked within a repressor may fire normal weapons at another viable target in range excluding the unit engaging the repressor.

 

The repressor may fall back, units embarked may fire as normal the following shooting phase.

 

Am I understanding all of this correctly? Thanks!

[Eddie Orlock]

Units embarked within a Repressor may fire pistols at the squad engaging the repressor.

This is false. The other two remain true. The pistols into combat exemption requires that the firing unit be within an inch of an enemy unit, which is impossible if the firing unit is off the board in 'transport space'.

[Lord Grimskull]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/new-warhammer-40000-transports-may21gw-homepage-post-4/

 

Actually, this seems to be be explicitly saying you can fire pistol weapons at the units engaged with the transport.

 

That being said, I thought I read somewhere that if your transport disengaged neither it nor the embarked units could fire (barring some kind of special rule i.e. ultramarines etc.)

 

I clearly need to find the FAQ again.

[Mossback]

I had not read that one before, Lord Grimskull. It does seem to indicate troops inside a transport (Repressor) can shoot their pistols at the enemy surrounding the vehicle. If it turns out that it isn't allowed to shoot into the melee, but can still fire their weapons at a different unit. I wonder how that might affect shooting at a character? If a character is not engaged in the melee, but would otherwise be targetable, could you shoot at the character, and not the troops that are surrounding the vehicle, since you wouldn't be allowed to shoot into combat?

 

Personally, I'd like to see a strategem that allows you to shoot into a melee combat. It might cost 1 CP,  and you would have the risk of killing off your own troops, but it might pay off, especially if you have only a couple models left in the melee, and you want to kill off a bunch of enemy troops.

[bkde]

I had not read that one before, Lord Grimskull. It does seem to indicate troops inside a transport (Repressor) can shoot their pistols at the enemy surrounding the vehicle. If it turns out that it isn't allowed to shoot into the melee, but can still fire their weapons at a different unit. I wonder how that might affect shooting at a character? If a character is not engaged in the melee, but would otherwise be targetable, could you shoot at the character, and not the troops that are surrounding the vehicle, since you wouldn't be allowed to shoot into combat?

 

The bit about targeting characters is already covered on pg.67 of Chapter Approved.  Character with less than 10 wounds can only be targeted if it is both visible to the firer and is the closest enemy model, if any other enemy model is closer, whether visible or not, the character cannot be targeted.

 

It is interesting that the Firing Ports rule for the Repressor does not match the Open-Topped wording.  i.e. Open Topped specifically states that the passengers cannot fire if their ride fell back and passengers cannot shoot (except with pistols) if the transport is within 1".  This wording is absent from the Firing Ports rule. 

[Lord Grimskull]

True bkde, but the firing ports rule does state that the units "Measure and draw line of sight from the vehicle hull" or something to that effect. Since the targets would be within 1' of the hull of the vehicle they are engaging I believe they would be eligible for pistol fire for the normal purposes of shooting while engaged.

 

I need to check the imperial armor faq x_X

[bkde]

But if they're eligible to shoot pistols they would be ineligible to fire their regular weapons, as they would technically be engaged, no?

[Eddie Orlock]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/new-warhammer-40000-transports-may21gw-homepage-post-4/

 

Actually, this seems to be be explicitly saying you can fire pistol weapons at the units engaged with the transport.

Marketing blog posts are seldom accepted as rules source documents. Far more likely is that the blog team made a mistake and got it wrong.

[Kolyarut]

 

It is interesting that the Firing Ports rule for the Repressor does not match the Open-Topped wording.  i.e. Open Topped specifically states that the passengers cannot fire if their ride fell back and passengers cannot shoot (except with pistols) if the transport is within 1".  This wording is absent from the Firing Ports rule. 

 

 

Echoing this reply, I think this is the right call. The Repressor is just better than the Starweaver in this regard.

 

Also I don't think the blog post about the Starweaver was wrong per se - the unit inside can shoot pistols, just not at the unit the transport is within 1" of (since that unit is locked in combat with a separate unit) [EDIT: yes it was wrong, I just re-read it]

[Lord Grimskull]

Eddie-

You're right I shouldn't have used the web article as my only case for my point since it was market/Dev bit

 

Eddie and kolyarut - despite using the blog post as reference I need to point out that the example exactly describes the rules on open-topped.

 

Kolyarut- not only can they shoot the pistols and target the the guys within 1', they -must- target the guys within 1' as the pistols rules in the core book state (well, it says nearest and even if within 1' of friendly)

 

Bkde- being engaged is irrelevant, only the distance of enemy models during the shooting phase. I.e. enemy model within 1' during shoot phase? No shooting. Pistols rules state yes shooting but only nearest etc, etc. Remember we're drawing distance from the hull of the repressor, that's the key here.

 

Bkde further thoughts- what's interesting and I can't find (thus why I'm hunting for a faq) is open topped is very specific about movement for the units inside (specifically advancing and falling back). The Repressor's is painfully vauge and I could see an argument for falling back with the repressor and still firing with the units within... Not a good argument mind you (likely get the open-topped citing) but still a discussion to be had.

[Kolyarut]

Hmm, I just re-read it again and I can see the flip side now.

 

Starweaver

 

• any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers
• the passengers... cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit

Pistols

 

• A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit.

So yes, the Starweaver passengers should be able to shoot at the unit they're engaged with. How I managed to get this reading, then re-read it for the last post and got the opposite, then re-read it today and got the original interpretation again, I have no idea!

 

But none of that applies to the Repressor since they're separate abilities.

 

It doesn't matter to the RAW debate, but when it comes to RAI, fluff wise they're still different scenarios - one is an open vehicle where the passengers are dodging enemy attacks, the other is an enclosed container with meltaguns sticking out the sides.

[Eddie Orlock]

But none of that applies to the Repressor since they're separate abilities.

I think the most salient thing in the thread. This is the new 40k full of 'bespoke' rules.

 

So, I'll take my medal from the #1 bureaucrat, because 'technically correct is the best kind of correct'.

 

The other issue with 'blog post as rules' is 'Printed off articles from our blog' isn't listed amongst the sources they expect you to bring to events. Still, it is good to see this all harmonise at the end.

[bkde]

The IA Adeptus Astartes FAQ doesn't state anything about the repressor:

 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/40K_8th_ed_Update_Imperial_Armour_Index_Forces_of_the_Adeptus_Astartes_ver_1.2.pdf

 

So to sum up:

 

Repressor fall back and passengers shoot, yes, because nothing in the Repressor rules restrict it.

 

All agree, and we can move on?

 

Still outstanding:

If the Repressor has enemy models within 1" is the passengers only option to shoot pistols at the enemy models within 1" (because they measure and draw line of sight from any point on the vehicle)

 

Or

 

Can the passengers shoot their regular weapons at a different target (because the passengers themselves do not have enemy models within 1" and there is no wording on the repressor data sheet stating passengers are limited to only targeting enemy models within 1" of their transport)

 

Thanks!

[Eddie Orlock]

Can the passengers shoot their regular weapons at a different target (because the passengers themselves do not have enemy models within 1" and there is no wording on the repressor data sheet stating passengers are limited to only targeting enemy models within 1" of their transport)

This. Furthermore, they can't shoot at enemies within an inch of their transport because those are within an inch of a friendly model.

[Lord Grimskull]

Yeah, so I reread the firing ports rule on the repressor and also notice I got something wrong. Firing ports doesn't mention the hull at all instead saying "measuring and drawing line of sight from any point on the vehicle." So my brain was filling in the hull bit.

 

Since it's any part of the vehicle, you being the controller select the point, you should be able to choose both. Either within 1' allowing pistol shooting at the units tying up the Repressor, or select a point beyond 1' and fire normal weapons at anything (but not the stuff locked in combat with the repressor)

 

On top of the movement stuff, the repressor is a very flexible vehicle.

[Eddie Orlock]

The 'Open Topped' rules cited earlier specifically 'pass the transports restrictions and modifiers' on to their transported unit. Which presumably includes their 'being within one inch'ness.

 

The Repressor's 'Firing Ports' rule conspicuously omits such text while including text to transmit 'having moved' status. Which could imply that even though you could measure a range to target of less than one inch the passengers couldn't inherit this 'less than an inch'ness from their transport.

 

So I guess it could come down to if we think the permission to measure from a fender can over power the blanket bar in the transport rules that "Embarked units cannot normally ... be affected in any way ... . Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect ..."

 

Now, there could be a historical case to be made around ForgeWorld carelessness in rules writing, but it seems that their index books hit a higher standard if we compare the wording of the Tantalus' open topped rule to the ones found in studio Dark Elder sources. I don't think anyone's arguing this though.

[ERJAK]

<p>

 

i think 1d4chan has a good info about repressor.

 

---

Repressor (Forge World): It is a Rhino on crack. Has 6 firing ports, which is a rarity now. Has the option to give it a second heavy flamer or a second storm bolter. Either take none or the storm bolter. The fire power of the Repressor is coming from the embarked squad anyway. If you want to grill stuff, take an Immolator instead. This vehicle is, with dominions, what makes the SoB a decent army in 8th ed, allowing you to release your holy fire without having to expose to enemy fire your frail T3 dudettes. 20pts more since CA, making it best reserved for melta dominions only.

• Neat trick, usable by any transport but even more so repressors : If your vehicle have not advanced in the previous movement phase, it can charge. Useful for either absorbing overwatch (Rhino of repentia/arc-flag/DCA) or simply tie up in CC an enemy shooty unit. With a 24"+D6" move followed by a 2D6" charge, repressors makes great ":cuss your shooting" rams. Moreover...
• Firing ports work so that embarked squads can fire even if the repressor is engaged in combat/have retreated this turn.

1d4chan is not always a great source of rules knowledge. I've had to fix plenty of errors on that page since the indexes dropped.

[STTAB]

Hey guys,

 

I'm having a think through some Sisters stuff. May I ask a couple of questions as the rules aren't super clear.

 

Can a unit embarked inside the repressor have an act of faith used upon it, say to fire at the start of the turn?

 

Secondly. Saintly Blessings is in addition to your act of faith. Does it have to be used second? For example if you intend toove Celestine with an act of faith, then she is out of range of a dominion squad or can saintly Blessings be used first?

[Atrus]

1) No. Theyre in transport Non-space and not on the table therefore cannot use AoF.

 

2) Just think of Saintly Blessings as an extra AoF to the army one. It can be used in any order. You could 2+ Celestine faith move forward into ramge of a dom or whatever squad and then they can use her Saintly Blessing to Aof whatever.

Or you could Saintly Blessing a nearby squad and then 2+/4+ faith her.

 

What i do is I roll all my AoF rolls (army and any imagifiers) and pool the successful ones (noting the ones from imagifiers to affect only units in their range), then go ham accordingly with AoF.

There is no rule saying you muzt use zis fays und zen zis fays in zis order und no uzzer. As long as saintly blessing is either affecting her or a unit in 6".

 

TL;DR do whatever order you like.

[bkde]

Hey guys,

 

I'm having a think through some Sisters stuff. May I ask a couple of questions as the rules aren't super clear.

 

Can a unit embarked inside the repressor have an act of faith used upon it, say to fire at the start of the turn?

 

Secondly. Saintly Blessings is in addition to your act of faith. Does it have to be used second? For example if you intend toove Celestine with an act of faith, then she is out of range of a dominion squad or can saintly Blessings be used first?

Similar to Alturas response above, units inside cannot be affected by an AoF. It's in the wording of how units embarked cannot normally be affected while embarked(Brb pg. 183), which was the response given by the warhammer community team.

 

For Acts of Faith I typically resolve mine one at a time, more to have it clear for my opponent than anything else. I.e. Celestine will do hers (or a unit within 6") then I'll roll for the other AoF and on a 2+ pick another unit to AoF. Or vice versa.