Thousand sons talenof gamers - need advice on cultists/gors

[jimbo1701]

Greetings folks. My club are running a tale of gamers type event from may onwards, where we all collect a new army and paint a unit or so a month fully as we go along. I have no chaos armies and so have decided to go with thousand sons - as a result I have bought the aos battleforce as a starting point. This will allow me to build up to the csm element.

 

My question is, would I be better using the kairic acolytes from the set to represent cultists or tzaanagors?

[Quixus]

You mean this box, right?

 

The acolytes look a lot more like cultists than Tzaangors, especially if you have actual tzaangors in the box/army as well. Note that the Cultist can have autoguns or auto pistols and a CC weapon. The box does not contain any autoweapons. So you might need to get them elsewhere.

 

Unless I am missing something the box does not give you any HQ for 40K. So you would probably want to have a few. Daemon Princes (with wings) and Ahriman are quite popular these days.

[jimbo1701]

Hi quixus

 

Yes that’s the box thanks. You’re correct in that it wouldn’t have an hq - I’m thinking a sorcerer to start with. We probably will start with hobby only for the first few months until everyone can field 500 points and then start playing with the armies. I thought starting with this set would be nice to build up the theme of a tzeentch Cult which eventually starts incorporating rubric marines and expanding in scope.

 

I’m still in 2 minds about the kairics. Totally agree that they would be better as distinct units from the tzaanagors representing cultists. Then again, they come with the correct wargear to be used as tzaanagors and they seem to have so many perks compared to cultists pointswise I’m not sure I’d ever run cultists.

 

Food for thought though. I also wondered if further down the line a slaughterbrute would be a nice proxy for a maulerfiend, seeing as it builds the vortex beast too.

[Zodd1888]

I've had very little negativity towards Kairic Acolytes as Tzaangors. Same base size, load, and the fluff points towards Tzaangors being mutatants. Acolytes may be further along warped way compared your generic guard sized cultists.

 

That said , it all depends on your gaming group.

[Kite Senet]

Personally, I'd run them as cultists since the TSons Cultist codex art depicts one guy in Kairic gear, suggesting that GW would have Kairics classify as cultists in 40k. But I also have no interest in melee cultists, which is also why I decided not to buy that Changecult box.

 

I wouldn't be upset if someone wanted all of their Kairics to count as melee Tzaangors in a game, though. They do seem almost strictly better than melee cultists to me, especially since we don't seem to get Tide of Traitors.

[Quixus]

 Same base size, load, and the fluff points towards Tzaangors being mutatants. Acolytes may be further along warped way compared your generic guard sized cultists.

That is an interesting point. Since I have neither Acolytes nor Tzaangors I cannot comment on the feasibility of the idea but maybe you can mix and match the bits to have some Tzaangors still in the process of mutating.

 

I wouldn't have problems playing against Kairic Tzaangors either, but YMMV. Anyway using two different models to represent the same rules is a lot better than using one type of model to represent two different rules constructs.

 

re: HQ If you are on a budget, just buy Arhiman and use him as (exalted) sorcerer if you do not feel comfortable investing the points for the actual rules. It is a beautiful model and Ahriman is a sorcerer, and looks like one.

[jimbo1701]

I've had very little negativity towards Kairic Acolytes as Tzaangors. Same base size, load, and the fluff points towards Tzaangors being mutatants. Acolytes may be further along warped way compared your generic guard sized cultists.

 

That said , it all depends on your gaming group.

Thanks zodd, that info helps. Perhaps painting the skin tones the same and mixing the kairic/gor sets together may be an option?

[Raven1]

I think they would be best as Tzaangors as Tzaangors and kairic as cultists. That being said the melee cultists I don't think are as good as straight autogun cultists but we can't pull the shoot twice thing Slaanesh marked cultists can so it's different.

 

As far as HQs go I think the two best choices are Ahriman and the demon prince individually. Ahriman is cheaper points wise but about the same cost money wise.

[Kite Senet]

I'm no 40K pro, but I'd think that you'd want to get more than just one Patrol detachment. As is, you're going to find yourself in a bit of a bind pretty soon; 40 Tzaangors will eat up at least two Troops slots and if you're going to add Rubricae later then you really won't have much room to work with. Perhaps more importantly, with at least two HQs you can field a Batallion and net yourself 3 command points. So filling out 2-3 HQ slots for one $60 purchase is one (small) thing in the favor of Exalted Sorcerers as an option.

 

Alternatively you could go for another Enlightened box and just 1 HQ, Ahriman or DP, and make an Outrider detachment, but that's only going to net you 1 CP and it'll still be pretty restrictive on Troops slots if you want to field Rubric Marines.

 

I suppose you could also get Ahriman or Daemon Prince and then try swapping to a Batallion later in the campaign by just throwing in a Terminator Sorcerer, but I'm not sure if those are particularly good in-game.

[Zodd1888]

I hear the concerns regarding Acolytes as Cultists but I've got a few things I want to point out about the models.

 

Base size variance is one thing to consider on it's own. Being the same means you're not going to be having issues with a oversized unit footprint at a tournament. If someone decides to be lame this could extend or complicate a simple issue. Yes, you could put them on a smaller base but that's more costs and also seems to fit oddly with those models.

 

The second piece I'd consider is the similarities in the armour. Absolutely it's intended to show cohesion of the Tzeentch force, but it's so similar that with similar paint schemes they simply look like an alternative or amalgam of Astartes/Tzaangor.

 

Is it out of the realm of possibility that as a Cultist morphs to a Tzaangor they have a stage as an Acolyte? Increasing cultists size to that of an Astartes (S4/T4), armour gradually fusing or morphing to the body as it transitions to warp tainted Tzaangor.

 

I've found them mixed in at a 1 to 2 ratio you don't even really notice them.

 

Just IMO.

[Quixus]

Ahriman is cheaper points wise but about the same cost money wise.

Indeed he is. The daemon prince seems a lot more plastic per £. Also with a couple of magnets you can get a lot more options out of the daemon prince. Sword, Axe, Talon with or without wings. Ahriman only has the option of not taking the disc. I'd take both in a battalion.

 

I suppose you could also get Ahriman or Daemon Prince and then try swapping to a Batallion later in the campaign by just throwing in a Terminator Sorcerer, but I'm not sure if those are particularly good in-game.

The TDA sorcerer has his place. He can get to +2 on psychic tests and he can deep strike.

[Zodd1888]

+4 on first cast with Strategem and trait on TDA Sorc.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I would run them as tzaangors for a few reasons,

 

1) They have very similar wargear, and are the same size. They dwarf regular cultists both in model size and the bases (don't even know if you could fit them in the correct ones lol).

 

2) Its not the right forum for it but you bought an AoS starter kit, modeling them with that wargear lets you have a cheap entry into another system if your club ever goes that direction (or if you already have its another option). Leverage your money. 

 

3) Your not sure if you would ever run the cultists, that's a big deal. Maybe a tournament might have an issue with it down the line but for a slow grow league in a club I can't see anyone caring. If they're fine with a slaughter brute as a maulerfiend (which would look pretty cool btw) then I think your golden.  

[Quixus]

If they're fine with a slaughter brute as a maulerfiend (which would look pretty cool btw) then I think your golden.  

I just looked that model up. It looks kinda good, but the nipple arms kill it for me.

[Skerr]

Since its the same kit, pose and all I can see most people not having an issue with it. Vortex away dude!

[bozo69pd]

You could always bring 1 unit of regular cultist models and paint them very differently. Perhaps red coats like actual Prospero Spireguard? I painted mine to look like dusty wastelanders. Then paint your kairic acolytes and Tzaangors in similar colors and theme. I actually made my acolytes have blue skin to make them look like they were mutating into the tzaangors. Nobody questions my theme now.