Given up assault for now.....

[Kasper_Hawser]

.... just wanted to share that I think barring our codex arrival, I think I better stop trying to do assault lists.

 

For some context, I've been trying to put in more assault elements like outflanking Wulfen, Bloodclaws, and of course Grey Hunters to get into range, along with Axe Shield dreadnoughts to distract, but so far it just isn't working. The 9" restriction is bad enough for those units outflanking, but worse is the 6" restriction which they come in, which means at the same time they'll be unable to charge together as they arrive in line unless the other guy is stupid enough to leave room for both units to come out at same flank.

 

More likely the opponent will cover at least two table edges, leaving the outflanking units unable to concentrate their charges. Unless in conjunction with terminators or sky claws but those have their own problems. I thought the outflanking strategem could reduce my need for Rhinos and free up points for more troops, but in the end, it just feels like I've wasted my valuable CP to outflank a unit that 60% of the time, can't make the charge or can't damage the opponent enough to make a difference. And then get wasted in the return fire unless I outflank a RP with them for cover save, which makes the investment cost increase and doubtful on returns.

 

So I'm going back to my metal boxes and good old Long Fangs to have fun again. Maybe have a small unit of wulfen as a counter charge, but I'm not going to gear my whole list just to kill again. Not going to waste my valuable CP on the outflank, and return to my beloved Razorback Assault Cannons, which I've missed dearly. If it means less werewolves or choppy bits, so be it. I'll continue the good fight with bolters, melta, plasma and flamer. Maybe add a few more Primaris for support. I'm finding so far the few times I used Intercessors, they're actually quite resilient even towards long range guns. Lascannons seemed to be cursed not only to miss, but also to roll 1s for damage much of the time.

 

and if I want to use outflanking, i think the best bet would be a hellblaster unit to either kill or secure a flank. Because nobody likes to get in range of those guys. 30" really is quite far if you think about it.

[greysquigg]

Yeah I think I agree certainly against marines which makes up the bulk of opponents anyway.

 

I have had a similar issue. I feel if we had a stratagem that allowed advances followed by charges then we'd be ok as the extra few inches adds a ton to threat ranges. Also makes the whole disgorging from a raider followed by a charge viable. Also seems fluffy in a way but not to OP I hope? 

 

Sticking with what is essentially a vanilla marine list if I want to win any games. Wulfen are still viable for sure along with TWC. 

[Arentius]

See I play against nurgle and necrons mostly, and I’ve had great success with assault. I’ve even made an army list where my only guns are my reivers bolt pistols.

 

It’s actually been an incredibly fun list to work with!

 

Now to try it against the tau..

[TiguriusX]

I mainly use my dreads for assault so haven't hit this problem myself.  Everything else is basically shooting for me so when I come in with long fangs, grey hunters or my jump wolf guard I can usually rapid fire the plasma at something I want.

 

I haven't played any hordes that can completely box me from shooting yet.

 

I have recently started field testing assassins and am having trouble putting them exactly where I want if the backfield is too crowded.  This is using a single model without being tied to a board edge.  

[PeteySödes]

For me assault just happens from applying pressure. My local meta has a LOT of Guard. I'm not building for assault other than my axe dread but cunning of the wolf grey hunters harrying back a gunline does good work.

 

In 8th I havent had many protracted combats so i dont see why i should spend a premium for it. I'd rather concentrate on mobility to hit hard where it will do the most damage fast.

[sturguard]

I think it all comes down to the meta. Let's face it, some folks are going to encounter more competitive lists no matter what faction your opponent plays. I think from previous messages I have read, Kasper plays in a fairly competitive arena, so some of the tactics he is trying to use might not be successful that folks in other areas might experience.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I think it all comes down to the meta. Let's face it, some folks are going to encounter more competitive lists no matter what faction your opponent plays. I think from previous messages I have read, Kasper plays in a fairly competitive arena, so some of the tactics he is trying to use might not be successful that folks in other areas might experience.

 

Thanks for taking note of my posts. And yes, I've dealt primarily with shooty lists everywhere. Even the Chaos players mainly spam Obliterators (Slaaneshi to boot, how heretical is that?) and Havocs, along with the usual cultist horde. The only pure CC player I know is a TYRANID player who is the most experienced and knows the rules inside out. You know how powerful? Even in the days of 5th and 6th edition Tyranids when they were supposedly weak, even BEFORE the tyranocyte was invented, he was still the most feared player.

 

So yes, in every turn i face gunlines which I just can't break through or sneak up behind. Right now, the Outflank stategem is not so much to do damage, but to dictate how the other player deploys. Normally, this means he'll spread his line across his side of the table with his cheap chaff units or otherwise bubblerap HIS heavy guns. At best, this forces him to castle up at one corner, although if he has enough units, he'll castle somewhere middle of his side so he can have a birds eye view and line of fire for his big guns.

 

Although of course, no super heavy is going to be afraid of even staring down a full Grey Hunter squad with 3 meltas.

 

Sigh, so back to the good ol Razorbacks and Rhinos. With maybe some Intercessors advancing behind for support. And a Hellblaster to fully use the outflank strategem and control at least one side of the board.

[Karhedron]

My Wolves are built on the Space Vikings theme rather than Wolfy McWolf-face so I don't have any Wulfen or TWC. My usual list consists mainly of Grey Hunters and Hellblasters with a couple of RBs, Bjorn, Njal and a pack of Long Fangs. It has done very well by advancing under the cover of Storm Caller while laying down a steady hail of fire. If the situation calls for it, the hunters have sprinkling of CC weapons and are more than capable of taking on anything short of a dedicated melee unit should the need/opportunity arise.

 

I have found the same situation with my Blood Angels. They have a full codex with various stratagems for reaching melee but even so, firepower is still key. I have found myself using units like the Death Company either in a counter-charge role or to delivery a killing blow rather than as an all-out assault force.

[Ishagu]

If a list focuses exclusively on Assault I think it will be difficult, but you can still dedicate elements within the list for close combat engagements.

[Kasper_Hawser]

If a list focuses exclusively on Assault I think it will be difficult, but you can still dedicate elements within the list for close combat engagements.

 

True, and that's why I'm pulling back the aggressive strategy. I've tried multiple assault units outflanking, but I just can't get over the 9" restriction, nor can I shoot enough to make sure they can survive the retaliation fire. Also I can't position them enough to get multiple threats to the opponent as it is too easy for him to cover a side and ensure my units attack piecemeal.

 

and even if they did make the charge, falling back is still an option for him to shoot off my units.

 

So back to my good ol grey Hunters. And Assault Can backs. and Long Fangs. and my beloved autocannon predator. Oh God, I missed my big guns even though I know I won't win a shooting standoff.

[Bulwyf]

I will never not have an assault SW list. It is the most iconic part of the entire SW mythos, the frostaxes and frostblades charging with fangs bared straight into the jaws of Morkai.

 

I can still have lots of success in 8th with Wulfen and TWC. Not to mention Bjorn and Murderfang up close on anything is going to be bloody hell for the enemy.

[wilkco]

I do assault list but use the hunt stratagem to drop in a wolf guard melta/plasma unit with Logan,storm to kill off flyers/tanks or badly wrapped character, due to wulfen being able to move and advance plus charge alway plans them as close to the enemy deployment zone to fast track on and kill stuff. Way my opponents are currently flyers are a given so you can alway put your wulfen in it as well if you need to get them future up field. I find wulfen are not really that effective using the hunt strategm.

[Deadnaughty]

Imo the key to a successful assault army is a T1 punch and a T2 punch to follow up.

The T1 punch takes out some key units and provides a big immediate distraction that has to be dealt with, which takes pressure of the T2 punch who follow up and close the deal.

 

SW's get the outflank strat and re-roll charges on Wulfen. That's still a 50-50 chance to make the charge and (imo) not good enough.

What delivers the T2 punch? Dreads won't be there on time so you need to use WG for it (bikes or JP, Sky/Swiftclaws dont have the punch)

 

Compare this to BA.

Pre-game move for Death Company. 3d6 charge strat combined with deepstrike means you have basically 2 guaranteed T1 charges. 

T2 punch comes from more JP units.

 

SW's lack the reliable T1 punch and one of our best assault unit, the dread, not getting to combat until T3.

And Wulfen vs Death Company probably isn't in SW favor either.

 

The codex might change this tho. 

[PeteySödes]

I almost never leave home w/o my Lucius Pod anymore for that reason.

[TiguriusX]

My shield dreads seem to draw a ton of fire whether they make it into assault turn 1 or 2 etc.

 

Even if they aren't killing they still contribute.

 

I know armies with high mobility can theoretically ignore the shield dread but i haven't had it happen yet

[PeteySödes]

My shield dreads seem to draw a ton of fire whether they make it into assault turn 1 or 2 etc.

 

Even if they aren't killing they still contribute.

 

I know armies with high mobility can theoretically ignore the shield dread but i haven't had it happen yet

 

The old "distraction carnifex" has 100% shifted to "distr-axe-tion" within my group.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Imo the key to a successful assault army is a T1 punch and a T2 punch to follow up.

The T1 punch takes out some key units and provides a big immediate distraction that has to be dealt with, which takes pressure of the T2 punch who follow up and close the deal.

 

SW's get the outflank strat and re-roll charges on Wulfen. That's still a 50-50 chance to make the charge and (imo) not good enough.

What delivers the T2 punch? Dreads won't be there on time so you need to use WG for it (bikes or JP, Sky/Swiftclaws dont have the punch)

 

Compare this to BA.

Pre-game move for Death Company. 3d6 charge strat combined with deepstrike means you have basically 2 guaranteed T1 charges. 

T2 punch comes from more JP units.

 

SW's lack the reliable T1 punch and one of our best assault unit, the dread, not getting to combat until T3.

And Wulfen vs Death Company probably isn't in SW favor either.

 

The codex might change this tho. 

 

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Assault isn't good for Space Wolves yet. The synergy isn't there for the T1 and T2 punch. Only with shooting units is this viable.

[Bulwyf]

I definitely agree we need our codex to help the assault element of our army. When we will ever get a codex though seems to be the question.

[TiguriusX]

I view our army differently.

 

I think we are counter assault.

 

With our access to storm shields we can take the opponents alpha and return the favor.

 

Give them turn 1 and challenge them to bring it on. When the dust settles you have targets in front of you

[Deadnaughty]

I view our army differently.

 

I think we are counter assault.

 

With our access to storm shields we can take the opponents alpha and return the favor.

 

Give them turn 1 and challenge them to bring it on. When the dust settles you have targets in front of you

Except for all the armies that don't have to come forward and will happily blast away at you while you 'waste' points on a counter assault force.

[PeteySödes]

 

I view our army differently.

 

I think we are counter assault.

 

With our access to storm shields we can take the opponents alpha and return the favor.

 

Give them turn 1 and challenge them to bring it on. When the dust settles you have targets in front of you

Except for all the armies that don't have to come forward and will happily blast away at you while you 'waste' points on a counter assault force.

 

 

He's not saying we are a gunline, just that we operate within the same margins of a CC army. Obviously against a gunline we still would close.  

 

The best example would be comparing to say Blood Angels who are for sure a CC based chapter with red thirst. Wolves for example, while for sure have dedicated CC units, I would argue are best in that sub 12" rapid fire range daring people to come in. Now thats not saying don't charge the guardsmen but in previous editions at least we got counter charge which meant we would rapid fire (prevented assaulting then) then took a charge and still got +1A.

 

Granted its a subtle difference but I get what he means and 100% play that way. Close range aggressive pressure. If that means CC great! If that means peppering the crap out of them and making them flinch great!

[TiguriusX]

I remember on old space wolf tip for new players

 

Shoot the choppy stuff and chop the shooty stuff

 

We fill a niche that is extremely capable at both types of warfare but not the best at either

 

Close quarters combat where it can go either way is where space wolves can go bonkers

[greysquigg]

Space wolf players love to be in a position where they can rapid fire and change in. 

[Krakendoomcool]

@TiguriusX that’s the same advice they give Ork players, I guess it’s just good advice if you can do both shooting and assault well

 

Middle range has been the thing for a while, same as Deathguard

 

Even though we don’t have counter attack anymore the issues we are mentioning are the same issues that you had with counter attack the rule. Looks good on paper but in practice it got no use on gun lines who arent going to charge you anyway. Anyone who is charging your Space Wolves is probably a beast in assault so you get beat anyway.

 

Guess that’s what comes with being good at both but not the best.. Facing extreme armies at either end of the scale leave you wishing you are better at what your trying to do against them (whether it’s shooting or assaulting). Also leaving you feeling like you’ve wasted points on something not needed.

[Burias-Drak'shal]

I've never really considered SW to be an assault army as such that domain is the blood Angels. More mid range fire power drawing on the enemy then assaulting. Don't think we are equipped for full assault especially in th current edition. We don't have the out and out speed the BA can muster and then the punch up close. Though hopefully that changes when we get our codex.