Given up assault for now.....

[Guest]

We didn't have the outright speed but instead had out flanking. They attempted to give us Wulfen that allowed increased range but that just doesn't work out. We will see how GW will work this out for us in the codex. GW though states SW as an assault army, and as I said before, our gear and unique units show it as that.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

I view our army differently.

 

I think we are counter assault.

 

With our access to storm shields we can take the opponents alpha and return the favor.

 

Give them turn 1 and challenge them to bring it on. When the dust settles you have targets in front of you

Except for all the armies that don't have to come forward and will happily blast away at you while you 'waste' points on a counter assault force.

 

 

He's not saying we are a gunline, just that we operate within the same margins of a CC army. Obviously against a gunline we still would close.  

 

The best example would be comparing to say Blood Angels who are for sure a CC based chapter with red thirst. Wolves for example, while for sure have dedicated CC units, I would argue are best in that sub 12" rapid fire range daring people to come in. Now thats not saying don't charge the guardsmen but in previous editions at least we got counter charge which meant we would rapid fire (prevented assaulting then) then took a charge and still got +1A.

 

Granted its a subtle difference but I get what he means and 100% play that way. Close range aggressive pressure. If that means CC great! If that means peppering the crap out of them and making them flinch great!

 

 

Don't really want to argue semantics, but the rule was counter attack which gave +1 attack when charged. Counter charge was that strange rule in our decurion which allowed our units to charge in enemy assault phase if near enough. Stupid rule in my opinion, never really had a chance to use it. Typically my units die before in the following shooting turn because cannot assault out of our bloody drop pods.

[PeteySödes]

I was mainly referring to 3rd ed which, yes was called counter attack vs charge but, gave the +1 as well as a 6” move. Screw that decurian noise, I was always a champion of fenris. :D

[Brutallica]

Eeeeh... If space wolves aren't ment to be assault army, i suppose Tau arent supposed to be a shooty army.  

And in 8th edition, assaulting is so bad, and the odds so unfair even the best codex assaulty armies are mainly relying on shooting anyways, because its just miles better. Id also add, by the look of codex and CA releases, space wolves codex is most likely not gonna change the style much (because all assault problems is rooted in the core rules).

I really hope im wrong, because there is nothing id rather do than have fun AND have success with Wulfen, Murderfang, TWC and melee Wolfguard terminators again. But we need some hardcore stratagems and tactics that will make Blood Angels outright vomit out of jealousy before its remotely going to work.


The only small hope i have for our pure melee is Leman Russ, but even then GW could probably just make him "Guilliman light" and give reroll to hit with all pistols in close combat or some crazy junk like that and probably still be forced to footslug and chaff units fleeing combat over and over untill he is dead again and again.   

[PeteySödes]

Eh, I respectfully disagree. How much care are you giving to your charge placement? In 8th we can finally sweeping advance and lock people up properly. Fly and fallbacks can be an issue obviously but with the right placement you can prevent a lot of it and really rout people where you want. 

 

I think though if your trying to play 100% melee though with SW you're just hamstringing yourself. The idea that we have such strong shooting dating back to 2nd ed though I feel is proof enough that SW were supposed to be balances vs. an "assault army".

[Brutallica]

Now people are just chaffing up and falling back dosent matter a whole lot what my wulfens/blood claw/shield dreads placement is, what matters now is that is that shower the enemy in the shooting phase and at the critical targets or face my doom. Its easy to stuff charges and out manouvre consolidation moves, i did some great consolidations couple of times early on when 8th edition started that won me games, then my opponents simply adjusted pacement when facing me.

My main focus was melee for space wolves, it worked great in the last edition in a semi-competetive enviroment with Tau-riptide wing, Space Marines, IG, Nids, Eldar. I dont see why a 2nd edition codex should stop that now? Regardless, its dosent matter what our oppinions of the TRUE fighting style of space wolves is supposed to be... because shooting is king this edition, close combat is just "iceing on the cake" or "flies around the :cuss" depends on how you look at it. 

 

[Guest]

This whole discussions is just further reason why we need individual company options. We have some saying shooting is how SW are supposed to be, others saying melee, another saying a fusion, and a few weird going heavy support vehicles (sorry Ironwolves). The truth is that depending on your company your style of playing can vastly change.

 

If you looked at SW 7th edition company rules you would have never guessed they were the same chapter. Blackmanes drop pods, Deathwolves outflank Twolves, Ironwolves mass metal boxes, Fiehowlers jump pack, etc etc.

[TiguriusX]

This whole discussions is just further reason why we need individual company options. We have some saying shooting is how SW are supposed to be, others saying melee, another saying a fusion, and a few weird going heavy support vehicles (sorry Ironwolves). The truth is that depending on your company your style of playing can vastly change.

If you looked at SW 7th edition company rules you would have never guessed they were the same chapter. Blackmanes drop pods, Deathwolves outflank Twolves, Ironwolves mass metal boxes, Fiehowlers jump pack, etc etc.

Yes! Give us the individual wolf companies and styles

[PeteySödes]

That’s absolutely true JC, I’m merely suggesting that if we’re to expect melee options to rival a Khorne army as well as shooting options to unseat Tau people need to prepare for disappointment.

 

I dont mean to bring a “my way is best” view so I hope that’s not how I’m coming off. I freakin love getting in melee with my army, always have. Just that I’ve had pretty solid shows in competitive settings using the mix.

[Gherrick]

I agree that SW are fairly distinct in that we have such a variety between the companies, they are effectively sub-chapters. Thus, we can't truly say SW are a "melee-centric" chapter, when we can focus on melee, or ranged, or vehicle, or...and our special rule for long fangs makes them pretty much the best heavy support infantry unit in the Imperium, IMO (more so when you consider we can include a TDAWG with a SS and optionally a CML).

[Kasper_Hawser]

Eeeeh... If space wolves aren't ment to be assault army, i suppose Tau arent supposed to be a shooty army.  

 

And in 8th edition, assaulting is so bad, and the odds so unfair even the best codex assaulty armies are mainly relying on shooting anyways, because its just miles better. Id also add, by the look of codex and CA releases, space wolves codex is most likely not gonna change the style much (because all assault problems is rooted in the core rules).

 

I really hope im wrong, because there is nothing id rather do than have fun AND have success with Wulfen, Murderfang, TWC and melee Wolfguard terminators again. But we need some hardcore stratagems and tactics that will make Blood Angels outright vomit out of jealousy before its remotely going to work.

 

 

The only small hope i have for our pure melee is Leman Russ, but even then GW could probably just make him "Guilliman light" and give reroll to hit with all pistols in close combat or some crazy junk like that and probably still be forced to footslug and chaff units fleeing combat over and over untill he is dead again and again.   

 

A bit pessimistic, to me the worst edition was 6th and 7th where shooting is king  and assault is...... poop. Right now, shooting is still king, but assault is, as you say, icing on the cake. That's still far better than 6th and 7th with all the stupid assault restrictions.

 

As it is, my main problem isn't with dealing with Fly or super overwatch options: it is getting RELIABLE chances of succeeding a charge AND getting more options to get multi charges off. As it is, outflanking will only let you sneak ONE unit to charge, unless the opponent is stupid enough to leave space for two units to come on the same flank. As I understand, whether you have full rerolls from Wulfen, or use CP to reroll one dice, the best chances are barely 50%.

 

Because if you hit them and hit them HARD on the charge, it won't matter if they fall back or even wiped out. WE can always use our pile in and consolidate moves to go into the next unit. Even if they fly away, pushing them back is victory enough while our Long Fangs pick them off.

 

My two cents anyway. Until the wolf codex comes, I'll stick my emphasis to mid range firepower rather than more melee. Meaning I rather give my Wolf Lord a combi melta rather than a storm shield for range punch, and all my Grey Hunter packs plasma pistols instead of power weapons. Wulfen and Axe dreadnought will be strictly counter assault, rather than the whole strategy hinging on them getting into combat.