Q's about Strike from the Shadows

[MeltaRange]

Hey sorry if this has been asked before, but had a couple questions:

 

1. Does Strike the Shadows (SftS) happen before or after combat squads?  So if I have a unit of 10 Hellblasters, can I use SftS on the full unit and then split them into 2x5? (so I can only use 1 CP)

 

2. Is a unit deployed by SftS considered to be placed in reserve for the purposes of the rule where half your army must be deployed on the table?

[9x19 Parabellum]

1. You would combat squad them before you chose to SftS with them (or deploy them with StfS). So, no 2 for 1 bargain prices on StfS.

 

2.  I'm pretty sure, yes, they count as being placed in reserve, but i'll have to check the official wording in main rulebook when I get home.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Hrm. #2 is an interesting question.

 

I have always played it (friendly style) as counting as a Reinforcement.

 

Re-reading the stratagem itself, and a rather big argument on Dakka, I'm not convinced it does count as a reinforcement anymore.  (For purposes of your question, as well as triggering the Auspex scan stratagem or the Early Warning Override Tau system upgrade)

[9x19 Parabellum]

Ok so, I've done a bit more reading on this, and I think the answer to #2 is, no consensus reached.

 

The critical question is "Do unit placed in StfS count as being put in reserve arriving by/as reinforcements".

 

From everything I've read, there are pretty solid arguments made in support of both answers.

 

The most relevant piece of information I can find about what qualifies as "Reinforcemnets" is this:

 

REINFORCEMENTS
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."

 

We can infer from this, that, in order to be considered a "reinforcement" you have to:

-set upon the battlefield mid-turn

and/or

-set up at the end of the movement phase or during other phases.

 

SftS does not happen mid-turn, and it certainly does not happen during the movement phase or other phases.  It specifically happens at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first player turn has begun.  One could argue then that this means that SftS does not meet the criteria of being a reinforcement, and thus is not limited by any of the restrictions or contraints that apply to reinforcements, including the no-more-than-1/2-your-army-in-reinforcements restriction and the triggering of Auspex Scan and/or Early Warning Override.

 

Ruling it that way makes the stratagem even more powerful than it already was. Consider that, with an army of 12 units (6 infantry, 3 terminators and 3 jump pack) you could basically begin the game with NO MODELS on table (termies and jump packs would go into reinforcements, and infantry could all SftS). 

 

All that being said...I'm not entirely sure this is RAI (rules as intended) even if it is RAW.  But that's a whole other discussion.

[Dracos]

Parabellum looks like he pretty much covered it. :)

 

Who would want to start the game with nothing on the table though? You’re giving your opponent the advantage of grabbing all the best Objective positions.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Parabellum looks like he pretty much covered it.

 

Who would want to start the game with nothing on the table though? You’re giving your opponent the advantage of grabbing all the best Objective positions.

 

Well, if you're playing objectives, sure. But what if you're playing Purge the Alien or something like that?  :-D

[Claws and Effect]

For Matched Play it absolutely follows the rules for reinforcements. Specifically to disallow null deploying in a tournament. It's not fair to play a kill points mission and give your opponent first turn after you've set up your SFTS units where it's impossible for him to target them.

 

It is ruled as "What you actually deploy on the table vs anything that comes in at ANY other time".

 

For friendly games, rule it however you want.

[ShinyRhino]

If you want to combat squad a SftS unit, you'll have to use Tactical Flexibility for 1CP in your first turn. Note that it only works on 10-man units, regardless of whether they can combat squad at lower numbers, like bikes and whatnot.

[duz_]

I've always considered SftS as a "reserve / reinforcement" mechanic, and therefore subject to the >50% rule

As you "deploy" them after the deployment phase.

 

Either way if you play the less contentious of the interpretations you're less likely to cause unnecessary arguments with your opponent ;) :tu:

[9x19 Parabellum]

For Matched Play it absolutely follows the rules for reinforcements. Specifically to disallow null deploying in a tournament. It's not fair to play a kill points mission and give your opponent first turn after you've set up your SFTS units where it's impossible for him to target them.

 

It is ruled as "What you actually deploy on the table vs anything that comes in at ANY other time".

 

For friendly games, rule it however you want.

 

C&E: 

 

Is it possible that what you meant was that it absolutely follows the rules for "Tactical Reserves" in matched play?  I agree with you on that.  Tactical Reserves, for reference, is the rule on page 215 that states:

 

Tactical Reserves. (page 215)

 

“Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have have the ability to <fluff/snip> in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability…<snip>”

 

 

I color coded keywords for abstract pairing. Now compare that with-

 

Reinforcements. (page 177):

“Many units have the ability to be setup on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using <snip>. Typically this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive-their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield-but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.”

 

I disagree with you, though, that SftS absolutely counts as "reinforcements".  I think it's ambiguous at best, with strong circumstantial evidence suggesting that in order to be considered "reinforcements", that the unit in question must be setup mid-turn or during a phase.

 

StfS does not happen "Mid turn" or during a phase, thus, it exists outside the definition of reinforcements.

 

However, SftS also does not happen "during deployment", so it does not fulfill the "half # units requirement" for the tactical reserves rule, either.  (Which, I think is your opinion, and which I agree with).

 

Side Question (for everybody):

If your unit must be setup during deployment or else it's considered a "Tactical Reserve" how does that affect models that are deployed in a transport?  Models going into a transport are "setup" during "deployment" but placed "off the table".  These are the exact same words and phrases that are used for any of the deepstrike-style deployments (jump pack, teleportarium, grav chute, etc.)  So, do you units that are embarked on a transport at start of game count as tactical reserves? Why or why not? i'm not interested in RAI interpretations (yet).

[duz_]

Models in transports count towards calculating the 50% requirement. As that is your total number of units.

However putting unit(s) in a transport, reduces the number of drops for determining who deployed first.

So if you have a bunch of small squads or characters you could throw them in a transport to manipulate how quickly you deploy.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Models in transports count towards calculating the 50% requirement. As that is your total number of units.

However putting unit(s) in a transport, reduces the number of drops for determining who deployed first.

So if you have a bunch of small squads or characters you could throw them in a transport to manipulate how quickly you deploy.

 

I'm not following you, Duz.

 

Tactical Reserves requires that: "When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability…"

 

So, if you have an army with 8 units: A Captain, a Lt, 3 units of 5 tactical Marines, an Apothecary, a Company Ancient and a Land Raider Crusader

AND

You deploy the LRC with the Captain, Lt, 2x5 Tactical, the Apothecary, and the Compnay Ancient embarked upon it.

AND

You deploy 1 unit of Tactical Marines "on the table" somewhere....

 

Then you have deployed illegally because half of your 8 total units (ie, 4) "must be setup on the battlefield".  In the above example, only 2 units are setup on the battlefield.

Embarkation rules then go on to say, specifically, that models embarked on a transport are "removed from the battlefield".  The rules further go on to say that embarked models are basically treated as not being there for all intents and purposes.

 

Now, to be sure, I'm not convinced that this is RAI (rules as intended). But I think you'd be hard pressed to show me how it's not RAW. If anyone has a FAQ or Errata, or if there is an ITC or similar ruling that addresses this, I'd love to see it.

 

EDIT: Grammar/typo

[MeltaRange]

I think it makes the most sense that the RAI here is that units that don't deploy in the deployment phase because of an ability count as being Tactical Reserves in matched play.  Being deployed inside a transport is not an ability (like "manta strike" or "webway portal") and thus doesn't count as a unit in Tactical Reserves.  I do consider SftS as being "an ability" obviously, and so the units deployed via the Stratagem DO count towards your Tactical Reserves.

 

I also totally agree with 9x19 that this whole it is poorly worded, but if someone tried to rules lawyer me that a unit deployed in a transport (that's setup on the board) counts towards my 50% tactical reserves, I'd probably just pick up my toys and leave...

 

I'll take a peak at the rule book tonight as well...I wonder if the exception to 9x19's post is found in the transport section or just an inconspicuous sentence in the deployment section.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I think it makes the most sense that the RAI here is that units that don't deploy in the deployment phase because of an ability count as being Tactical Reserves in matched play.  Being deployed inside a transport is not an ability (like "manta strike" or "webway portal") and thus doesn't count as a unit in Tactical Reserves.  I do consider SftS as being "an ability" obviously, and so the units deployed via the Stratagem DO count towards your Tactical Reserves.

 

I also totally agree with 9x19 that this whole it is poorly worded, but if someone tried to rules lawyer me that a unit deployed in a transport (that's setup on the board) counts towards my 50% tactical reserves, I'd probably just pick up my toys and leave...

 

I'll take a peak at the rule book tonight as well...I wonder if the exception to 9x19's post is found in the transport section or just an inconspicuous sentence in the deployment section.

 

Thanks for your comments and insights, Melta.

 

I agree with you that I think one has to take an element of RAI into reading and understanding the rules.  And while you don't speak for everybody, I think most people would agree with your interpretation regarding embarkation vs. the 50% tactical reserves.

 

And, with that in mind, this is entirely the reason I posted that question; I actually think the RAI is clear that SftS does NOT count as either a reinforcement or a tactical reserve, to be honest. To my reading "Strike from the Shadows" is much like the Scout's "Concealed positions" deployment.  The models that are "Striking from the Shadows" were always there...they are just hiding in the shadows and neither you, nor your opponent know where they are until you reveal them at the beginning of battle round 1, before the 1st turn has started.  They did not drop in via jump packs or grav chutes, or appear instantly via teleportarium. They've always been there...

 

"But 9x19", you ask "the ruling says they are not placed on the battlefield! How can they NOT be reserves if they are not placed 'on the battlefield'!?"

 

My answer is "in the same way that we understand that models embarked on a transport do NOT count as reinforcements or tactical reserves despite the fact they are not placed 'on the battlefield' "

[MeltaRange]

Well then...as long as you're interpreting it to my advantage - then I'm listening! 

 

When you look at the rules as written, I can absolutely see how you're interpreting SftS as = to deploying inside a transport.  I'm going to comb through the book and FAQs to see if I can find, like I said, something that differentiates deploying inside a transport from other similar deployment abilities.

 

With that interpretation, it would be possible to create a brigade or double battalion that gives you more than enough CP to deploy completely off the table (I'd still bring Scouts to deploy normally) until after the opponent has 100% setup.  That's pretty dirty - I'm not sure if I'd like to do that to someone.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Well then...as long as you're interpreting it to my advantage - then I'm listening! 

 

When you look at the rules as written, I can absolutely see how you're interpreting SftS as = to deploying inside a transport.  I'm going to comb through the book and FAQs to see if I can find, like I said, something that differentiates deploying inside a transport from other similar deployment abilities.

 

With that interpretation, it would be possible to create a brigade or double battalion that gives you more than enough CP to deploy completely off the table (I'd still bring Scouts to deploy normally) until after the opponent has 100% setup.  That's pretty dirty - I'm not sure if I'd like to do that to someone.

 

There's no question that SftS can, if ruled completely RAW, be absolutely abused.

 

In fact part of me examining this with all of you on the forums is because my primary gaming buddy and I are having a pretty good dicussion about how exactly SftS should be played out.

 

We are pretty much in agreement about RAW, less so about RAI, but both agree the rule is pretty easily abused by RAW.  

[MeltaRange]

I'm going to spend some time creating a list that would take advantage of this interpretation and see if it's something that I'd be willing to give a whirl.  I'm thinking of something like 3x Scouts and 2x Tarantulas on the board; always deployed in a manner to deny the opponent as much space as possible while remaining completely symmetrical.  The remaining 1761 points consists of units that are either meant to soak up damage/take up space (assault marines, tacticals, intercessors) or hammer units (grav devs, hellblasters, plasma inceptors)

[Aothaine]

I don't read SFTS as null deploying at all. I see it as deploying after your opponent has deployed. Someone mentioned that the units are there. I agree. They are. They are not in reserve because they are on the board before the first battle round begins. It just allows you to deploy units after your opponent has fully deployed and where you want them to deploy with that 9" from the enemy rule.

 

I think the main confusion here is wording of the stratagem "You can set up the unit in the shadows/teleportarum/warp/etc" The same wording is used for units that are placed in reserve. However, units that are setup in this manner, as far as I'm aware are never deployed before the first battle round begins. 

 

From the FAQ:

Q: In the narrative play missions that use the Reserves mission

rule, what happens with units such as Terminators that have

abilities that allow them to be set up on the battlefield midbattle?

Can they be set up at the end of any Movement phase, as

indicated by the ability, or can they only do so when they arrive

from Reserves?

 

A: If the unit is deployed somewhere other than the

battlefield (for instance, in a teleportarium chamber)

then it is only set up on the battlefield when it arrives

from Reserves.

 

So what we need to figure out here is if deploying before the first battle round is the same as deploying mid-battle. Also, another thing we can look at is Ratlings.

 

Find the Best Spot: Instead of deploying normally, this unit may wait until both armies are fully deployed and then be placed anywhere on the board that is more than 18" from any enemy models.

 

So we now have an example of a unit deploying after the opponent has setup. And an FAQ using the wording that is confusing but sounds exactly the same as units that are deployed in reserves. 

 

The more and more I look into this it seems like SFTS is a reserves deployment that just happens before the start of the first turn allowing it to possibly ignore the movement penalty that most normal reserve deployments have. However, I can still see the argument that they don't count. It is a toughy. What do you guys think of the two rules bits I've found regarding this?

[Sloeberjong]

Nah, I'd say SftS counts as tactical reserves for matched play. They are not set up on the battlefield during deployment. My reasoning is as follows:

 

The rule for matched play:

 

TACTICAL RESERVES

 

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

 

The highlighted part is the actual rule. The first sentence is a collection of examples. The fact that SftS isn't mentioned doesn't exclude it since they say "etc.". The deal here is that units must be set up during the deployment fase on the battlefield. Neither of which happens when using SftS. 

 

Part two is the wording in SftS itself: 

 

 

STRIKE FROM THE SHADOWS

 

Raven Guard Stratagem

 

The Sons of Corax emerge from the shadows and fall upon their foes in a swift and devastating strike, slitting the throats of their prey before they even have a chance to react.

 

Use this Stratagem when you can set up a RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY unit during deployment. You can set up the unit in the shadows instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from their hiding place – set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

 

The SftS strat happens during deployment and you don't place the unit on the battlefield. Then at the beginning of the first battle round the unit emerges. The first battle round is already "during the game" even though nobody could have done anything else yet. Now, we could use semantics about what exactly is "mid game", but the game starts with the first battle round and and the matched play rules says "during deployment...on the battlefield". Since the deploymentfase is done I'd say deploying a unit via SftS is considered as a unit from reserves. I'd love for it to not be since I play RG myself, but then I'd also say it's not that much of a problem to count them as reserves. They're not set up on the battlefield during deployment.

 

As for the transports, it's a ridiculous comparison to make. They're obviously not in a transport so it makes no sense to compare the rules since they have no connection in the rules whatsoever. Speaking of transports, some people seem to make an old mistake. Some say: the unit is not considered to be on the table. This is wrong, it may be an old rule, however it has no basis in the current 8th edition ruleset. The transport rule says they're considered to be inside the transport and that you should put a model of the units on top so you know they're in there. Nowhere do the rules say they're not considered to be on the table, they're inside the transport which in turn IS on the table (ergo, unit is on the table, during deployment). They're not affected by abilities or aura's but they can be affected by things that happen during the battle: transport destroyed, then being shot at or something. 

 

Not that I really care either way, it's my interpretation of the rules. I think they're quite clear, but if I'm mistaken then I'd really like to see another point of view. 

[MeltaRange]

Nah, I'd say SftS counts as tactical reserves for matched play. They are not set up on the battlefield during deployment. My reasoning is as follows:

 

The rule for matched play:

 

TACTICAL RESERVES

 

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

 

The highlighted part is the actual rule. The first sentence is a collection of examples. The fact that SftS isn't mentioned doesn't exclude it since they say "etc.". The deal here is that units must be set up during the deployment fase on the battlefield. Neither of which happens when using SftS. 

 

Part two is the wording in SftS itself: 

 

 

STRIKE FROM THE SHADOWS

 

Raven Guard Stratagem

 

The Sons of Corax emerge from the shadows and fall upon their foes in a swift and devastating strike, slitting the throats of their prey before they even have a chance to react.

 

Use this Stratagem when you can set up a RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY unit during deployment. You can set up the unit in the shadows instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from their hiding place – set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

 

The SftS strat happens during deployment and you don't place the unit on the battlefield. Then at the beginning of the first battle round the unit emerges. The first battle round is already "during the game" even though nobody could have done anything else yet. Now, we could use semantics about what exactly is "mid game", but the game starts with the first battle round and and the matched play rules says "during deployment...on the battlefield". Since the deploymentfase is done I'd say deploying a unit via SftS is considered as a unit from reserves. I'd love for it to not be since I play RG myself, but then I'd also say it's not that much of a problem to count them as reserves. They're not set up on the battlefield during deployment.

 

As for the transports, it's a ridiculous comparison to make. They're obviously not in a transport so it makes no sense to compare the rules since they have no connection in the rules whatsoever. Speaking of transports, some people seem to make an old mistake. Some say: the unit is not considered to be on the table. This is wrong, it may be an old rule, however it has no basis in the current 8th edition ruleset. The transport rule says they're considered to be inside the transport and that you should put a model of the units on top so you know they're in there. Nowhere do the rules say they're not considered to be on the table, they're inside the transport which in turn IS on the table (ergo, unit is on the table, during deployment). They're not affected by abilities or aura's but they can be affected by things that happen during the battle: transport destroyed, then being shot at or something. 

 

Not that I really care either way, it's my interpretation of the rules. I think they're quite clear, but if I'm mistaken then I'd really like to see another point of view. 

 

I would have to agree with you here.  You've changed my mind to believe they do count as being off the board.

[duz_]

I think at this point the discussion can move to the OR forum.