Compensating for the lack of a living Primarch

[Palwatch]

The 1d4chan page lists, quite correctly, one of the cons of BA as being a legion with a confirmed dead Primarch making it unlikely we will ever have one that synergises completely with BA. 

 

It got me thinking about ways to compensate for that -

 

1: Fluffy power levelling of an existing BA character to Primarch level (Mephiston and Sanguinor would be likely candidates). 

2: One of the proposed returning Primarchs being more useful accross the board Guilliman. I would imagine Russ would have 'Imperial' buffs and movement that sync well with BA. 

3: Just deus-ex Sangy back to the land of the living.

 

Do you have other ideas to eventually compensate for the lack of a Primarch?

 

 

[Panzer]

I think we already compensate plenty with Captain Smash. Benefits from the Character keyword and can smash other Primarchs. :D

 

But yeah theoretically there's a lot of stuff possible. Buffing Mephiston and/or the Sanguinor or even just reviving Sanguinius in one way or nother (had to be mentioned but lets not discuss about it AGAIN).

[Indefragable]

Depending on just how broadly you want to think about this, there's multiple ways of attacking things:

 

1. Commander Dante: up him to where he really ought to be fluff wise

King of the North!

post Devastation of Baal. Kinda of 75% of a Primarch right there

2. "Triumvirate": Dante + Mephiston + (insert 3rd character here; probably the Sanguinor). Together, these three characters do as much if not more than a competing Primarch and all 3x of them together can take down a Primarch

3. Blood Angels = Space Marines+.  The most controversial of suggestions, but it has a certain merit if you think about it. Take Space Marines, everything they can do normally, and then add Red Thirst and Black Rage on top of that (rather than replacing other Chapter Tactics) to give your average BA a quantifiable edge mano-e-mano. When you think about it, the loss and manner of loss of our Primarch is one of the defining features of our Chapter in 40k. As such, we will never get our Primarch back, but his influence and legacy literally effects every single member of his bloodline for all time. Imagine killing off Guilliman, but saying that all UM get +1LD and can re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound since they honor their genesires memory or such. This would be something like that: the absence of a Primarch is the very thing that makes us stronger.

 

...of course that's controversial and people would gripe until the cows come home. <shrug> Not saying it's the way to go, but it is a thought. Not to mention yet another slap to the Iron Hands in comparison...

 

Two things I definitely DON'T want are Sanguinius coming back (lame comic booky lack of imagination) or BA becoming remoras to another Primarch. We are one of the "Big Four" and have always, and should always, have our own independent identity and not just be "Red Marines."

 

Just one man's opinion, of course.

[Halandaar]

Surely the appropriate "compensation" for lack of a Primarch is that you can spend ~350 points on other stuff? I mean sure, Guilliman is strong, but he's still an asset that you have to pay for in game terms, and not taking him allows other options. 

 

Not every faction needs a "Primarch-level" character, just the same as not every faction needs Conscripts or Battlesuit Commanders or whatever the broken-unit-du-jour is right now.

[Panzer]

Surely the appropriate "compensation" for lack of a Primarch is that you can spend ~350 points on other stuff?

 

That's pretty much the point of a points system, yeah. Unfortunately GW never really understood that. :D

[Bremon]

Sanguinius’ fluff is so good that I’d rather have a dead primarch than some beatstick that represents one of the few good things in a codex.

 

Our codex is great; codex SM is basically codex guilliman.

 

If we really needed something better then either Dante or Sanguinor could be buffed. Sanguinor being buffed to the point of being a psychic imprint of Sanguinius in the warp would do the trick.

[Silverson]

1, I think the sanguinor makes the perfect candidate to be buffed to primarch level of stats and buffs and would be sweet if he got a new sculpt in a triumvirate (Dante and Mephiston would be good).

 

2, I couldn't think of anything worse than being tagged to another primarch, it would take away part of our individuality in my opinion.

 

3, Bringing back sanguinius would be the best possible scenario for me but it has been talked about a lot here and people seem to have very strong opinions for and against his return.

[Pendent]

Just give me Dante with rules to reflect his new role and I'll be happy.

[toaae]

Mephiston and the Sanguinor being empowered by the two aspects of Sanguinius would be the best* move for me. Mephiston being the angry darkness of the angel, the Sanguinor being the righteous light. Give both some aspects of the primarch's personality and memories, such that in the presence of either one, Guilliman feels like it's an echo of his dead brother, but when both are around, Roboute claims that it is as if the Angel walks again. Would be unique and provide a cool contrast to other returned primarchs.

 

Bringing Sanguinius back would probably kill the fluff for me.

Edited March 21, 2018 by toaae

[Pendent]

Mephiston and the Sanguinor being empowered by the two aspects of Sanguinius would be the best* move for me. Mephiston being the angry darkness of the angel, the Sanguinor being the righteous light. Give both some aspects of the primarch's personality and memories, such that in the presence of either one, Guilliman feels like it's an echo of his dead brother, but when both are around, Roboute claims that it is as if the Angel walks again. Would be unique and provide a cool contrast to other returned primarchs.

 

Bringing Sanguinius back would probably kill the fluff for me.

 

That's honestly a really neat idea. I'd be happy with Dante alone but if they want to give us something more I really like that your idea reflects the duality of our chapter.

[spiros14]

Honestly, like everyone else, I would rather have emphasis put on Dante and Mephiston (They need new models so badly) rather than have Sanguinius return.

The Imperium as a whole honour his sacrifice annually. He does not need to return, as previous discussions have concluded.

 

That said, I would like a Triumvirate of Dante, Mephiston, and Corbulo. Because not only do these characters badly need new models (seriously they're like a decade old and midgets compared to other space marines) but also they characterise what is great/Unique about the Blood Angels; Mephiston is the fury of the Blood Angels Incarnate; Corbulo is the Head of the Unique order that only the Blood Angels and their successors have; Dante is the long lived veteran, that for many is a patron saint and selfless hero of the Imperium.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Mephiston and the Sanguinor being empowered by the two aspects of Sanguinius would be the best* move for me. Mephiston being the angry darkness of the angel, the Sanguinor being the righteous light. Give both some aspects of the primarch's personality and memories, such that in the presence of either one, Guilliman feels like it's an echo of his dead brother, but when both are around, Roboute claims that it is as if the Angel walks again. Would be unique and provide a cool contrast to other returned primarchs.

 

Bringing Sanguinius back would probably kill the fluff for me.

 

Definitely this. Sanguinius was always described as being very Yin/Yang in terms of his personality. Don't bring him back, have Mephiston be his incarnated Rage, and Dante/Sanguinor be his Hope.

[Blindhamster]

Lol, those models are more than 2 decades old fyi

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, so it's a perfect excuse to update them into new models properly befitting their status.

[Pendent]

My Dante's a conversion so I forget about him as needing an update. Mephiston definitely needs some love though.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Pendent

[brother_b]

Our Primarch was the best, he sacrificed everything for the Emperor and the Imperium of Man. As the Sons of Sanguinius, we cary that legacy onward!

[Karhedron]

The trouble with Primarchs is that I think they can easily become a points-trap. Guilliman costs a lot of points for a beatstick CC character with aura buffs. The trouble is that if you want him buffing your shooting he is not in CC and vice versa. For fewer points than Guilliman you can have a Captain and Lieutenant to buff your firebase as well as Captain Smash to go and beat things up in CC. Each of these models can concentrate on doing what they do best. The problem with a model that can do everything is that it will often struggle to make its points back unless it is doing everything.

[Panzer]

Guilliman is fine since his buff aura is strong enough and he easily protects the whole gunline on his own as well (no real competetive army is only sitting back shooting at the other army without trying to engage with it in some way or another). Not without reason are Guilliman gunlines the most competetive vanilla Marine armies.

Daemon Primarchs however are a big points trap since they just aren't durable enough without the Character protection but GW can't make them more durable or they'd wreck the opponents army on their own. ^^

[Xenith]

Sanguinius is dead.

 

Leave him that way.

 

The whole BA schtick is that they suffer echoes of his death and it drives them insane. You can't bring back Sanguinius without fundamentally altering who the BA are.

[Aothaine]

Our codex is great; codex SM is basically codex guilliman.

 

I disagree here entirely. Guilliman is good but far from necessary. 

 

 

Sanguinius is dead.

 

Leave him that way.

 

The whole BA schtick is that they suffer echoes of his death and it drives them insane. You can't bring back Sanguinius without fundamentally altering who the BA are.

 

Agree. Dante was put on equal footing with Guilliman in Guilliman's eyes and we have The Sanguinor . 

[Bremon]

Opinions. It’s hard to argue that Guilliman isn’t the best thing in that book, and you have three options to make lists; guilliman, Raven Guard, or msu salamanders. I’d rather have BA sans primarch either way.

[dread05]

 

Our codex is great; codex SM is basically codex guilliman.

 

I disagree here entirely. Guilliman is good but far from necessary. 

 

 

Sanguinius is dead.

 

Leave him that way.

 

The whole BA schtick is that they suffer echoes of his death and it drives them insane. You can't bring back Sanguinius without fundamentally altering who the BA are.

 

Agree. Dante was put on equal footing with Guilliman in Guilliman's eyes and we have The Sanguinor . 

 

 

The Sanguinor really bugs me. Setting aside that the model is really old, he's supposed to be a warp manifestation or something, yet he has a jump pack like any normal marine.

[brother_b]

I've often considered this, what happens when all of the other armies bring back their primarchs? Where will this put us?

 

Personally, I believe that they will bring Sanguinius back. Not any time soon, but they've set the stage already with the Cawl/Ynarri/Robute thingy, as well as some fluff apparently some Thousand Sons Rubric marines were brought back to life.

 

Again, this is all the game moving forward, the eventual replacement of regular marines, etc. It won't happen soon, but I'm pretty sure it will happen. $$$ would flow.

[Indefragable]

Not to derail this thread (since it’s based on the premise that Sanguinius is NOT coming back) with the yes/no on him coming back thing...

 

 

...but I would cynically believe that GW would absolutely jump the shark to grab more cash by bringing him back...except that mulitple BL authors from differening standpoints have all said flat-out that Sanguinius is staying dead.

 

Carry on.

[Aothaine]

Opinions. It’s hard to argue that Guilliman isn’t the best thing in that book, and you have three options to make lists; guilliman, Raven Guard, or msu salamanders. I’d rather have BA sans primarch either way.

 

Incoming Rant at Bremon:

Just a brief side argument here. There are so many more competitive lists outside of those options. In fact, Guilliman is rarely seen in the top lists in any ITC tournament. Saying that he is the best thing in the book is silly imho. I don't think I've crafted a list yet that uses him. He is too expensive for what he brings to the table as are all Primarchs. They get shot off the board in 1-2 turns. If you want we can create a separate thread discussing this. But I think you are so completely wrong about Guilliman that I'm actually getting upset over your statement lol. Geeezzz I need to calm down. Primarchs are cool, sometimes fluffy. But you can field better lists without them. A Great example is our very own codex Blood Angels. I've also just started a topic in the Astartes forum regarding assault based lists using the Space Marine Codex. The list I made was White Scars. Guilliman is a crutch that is not needed.

 

 

Now onto the topic of the thread..

 

 

1: Fluffy power levelling of an existing BA character to Primarch level (Mephiston and Sanguinor would be likely candidates). 

2: One of the proposed returning Primarchs being more useful accross the board Guilliman. I would imagine Russ would have 'Imperial' buffs and movement that sync well with BA. 

3: Just deus-ex Sangy back to the land of the living.

 

Do you have other ideas to eventually compensate for the lack of a Primarch?

 

Dante would be the most likely candidate for this. They could also someone new like the kid from Devastation of Baal. Would be cool to hear more about that kid that initially was rejected turning out to be some major player in the chapter down the line.

 

I honestly feel that not having a Primarch is actually a good thing in terms of competitive play. The area it hurts is narrative, but even then... our Primarch comes back and we lose Death Company. I don't think that is worth it. You have to remember that a Decked out squad of Death Company is basically our Primarch. They have so many more tools and can do so much more damage than a Primarch can do. I'd choose them over a Primarch any day.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Aothaine