JJ-McGuinness Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Evening Brothers, Had my 2nd game in 8th today, and wow it didn't go well. I came up against a guard player who put as many bodies on the board, with as many orders as possible being issued (standard). I made the mistake of using lots of power weapons, and not enough chainswords, to chew through the ranks of his guard. However the problem I had with his troops is, that they just fell back, turned around and shot at me again, if i didn't wreck the whole squad. On top of the fact we don't get the protection of being in close combat any more, I lost crucial initiates every time. I think the question I am asking is how do we, as Templars over come lists such as guard or orks with sheer numbers? Can you throw some ideas my way on how you overcame this issue? Thanks, J Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneTrueZon Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Leviathan with a Grav-Flux Bombard. 2d3 shots for every 5 people in the squad EDIT - if you have one on each arm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5038526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SydonianDragoon404 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 I hate to be the debby downer here, but I have yet to defeat Imperial Guard with my Templar army. I have even resorted to enlisting the help of Saint Celestine without success. I am very interested to see what solutions if any are posted here as far as advice fighting them goes. For me personally, after the third loss I decided that the matchup wasn't going to be worth my time in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5038544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrystalSeer Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 I've beaten guard every time I played them with my Templar, but you probably won't like my answer. Guard's weak point is BS and toughness, which is exploited far more by ranged combat than CC. My wins have come from running lots of air support with tough anchor units to hold ground objectives. Two Stormravens and a support flyer have essentially wiped most ground elements while being extremely difficult for foot-guard lists to take down. Dropping jump pack troops or terminators to grab objectives does the rest. Essentially, you embrace the non-cc portion of the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5038557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Hordes are essentially the biggest issues of 8th edition... and just be glad that you faced Guard and not Nids, which have both effective melee units and massed range fire... on top of psychic powers... I guess the simplest but hardest fix against them is that you have to engage all available squads with as minimal available units you have as early as you can... not essentially tie them up, but ensure that if they do fall back, there is as small as possible number of squads shooting back at you... that means having large Crusader squads, as number of models count more than number of wounds or 10-man Assault/Vanguard Squads with Jump Packs to assault bunched up squads as early as you can so that they won't be able to fire back... now the issue becomes surviving Overwatch or if the enemy is pretty spread out, ensuring the use of LoS blockers such as transports and similar or making them prioritize other much more terrifying targets such as Land Raider Crusaders... This is a simple trick, but sometimes if I'm doing Rhino rush, I try to position the Rhino to block off enemy squads from reinforcements/cover fire, before charging in with the transports usual contents... If my enemies are bunched up, then I usually declare Assaults against as many units as I can possibly reach and try to get into assault range of as many as I can... if those guys fall back, they can't shoot unless they use a command point... Also, a nifty trick is to use the Banner of the Emperor Ascendant if you can spare command points for relics... it enables you to shoot or assault one last time before dying... I had a full Terminator Squad with Storm Bolters and Assault Cannon pay their points back in kills just because they were in range of the said banner... Wish we had our old Template weapons back as they would literally make mince meat or BBQ out of horde armies if we had proper Vindicators and Redeemers... but unfortunately the best weapon we have in maximizing kills against Guard has to be the Thunderfire Cannon and Crusader... the LRC though can be easily tied up, while the TFC isn't as powerful as it used to be... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5038559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 You need to surround them in close combat.... If your enemy have two squads close to each other, then attack one and with a few models of your squad you have to surround one model of the other squad. Against AstraMilitarum it is the best way - against tyranids it wouldnt work. We are not a close combat army any more. Now we are black painted ultramarines and so we have to shoot more. But how your army looks like and which units are played by your enemy? You can even spam some Rhino´s. They should drive forward and in the secound round they can charge enemy tanks and enemy squads so you can smash them down without overwatch ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5038577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ-McGuinness Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Thanks for getting back to me brothers. If my enemies are bunched up, then I usually declare Assaults against as many units as I can possibly reach and try to get into assault range of as many as I can... if those guys fall back, they can't shoot unless they use a command point... Marshal Roujakis, see I did this, but he used an order every time saying get back in the fight, and it didn't cost him any cp. Now i thought this was a bit OP but then i don't know the rules to IG, so couldn't challenge him. He used this every time I charged a unit, which was a lot! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5038682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Thanks for getting back to me brothers. If my enemies are bunched up, then I usually declare Assaults against as many units as I can possibly reach and try to get into assault range of as many as I can... if those guys fall back, they can't shoot unless they use a command point... Marshal Roujakis, see I did this, but he used an order every time saying get back in the fight, and it didn't cost him any cp. Now i thought this was a bit OP but then i don't know the rules to IG, so couldn't challenge him. He used this every time I charged a unit, which was a lot! thats why you have to stay in close combat. You can reach that only in one way ------> surround another unit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5038931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Fight fire with fire? Our own Gunlines are pretty efficient, 9 inch range on a High Marshal re-rolling misses is a lot of dakka. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5038997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosCrusader Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 We are not a close combat army any more. Now we are black painted ultramarines and so we have to shoot more. Probably one of the saddest (yet true) statements of 8th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5039034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneTrueZon Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 We are not a close combat army any more. Now we are black painted ultramarines and so we have to shoot more. Probably one of the saddest (yet true) statements of 8th. This topic is on how to deal with gunlines. Saying we're not a CC army anymore is beating a dead horse that is nothing more than a pile of corpse dust by now. A truth does not have to be sad. Tactics change. People don't charge into battle on horseback anymore, we drop bombs on them from half the planet away. You can't just expect to throw chainswords and charges at something and think you're going to come out on top. A thematic / lore based army is for those kind of games. Calling us Ultras painted in black? Report to the Chaplain for a sermon or two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5039053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 I dont want the same discussion here but I hate the fact that we cannot melee. I prefer GW to change a lot of things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5039166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
allegedlynerdy Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 I have quite the opposite opinion. The backbone of my force is all closecombat crusader squads. I have some shooty squads, but it's a 3:1 mix. I also take a lascannon venerable dreadnought and an assault cannon Contemptor, and against hordes making the Venerable a second assault cannon or a plasma cannon might help, but I haven't had massive problems. There's two things you need to do: distraction and aura effects. Assault Marines+ vanguard vets+ a jump chaplain will absorb enemy fire for at least a turn. If they get into combat they can do lots of damage (especially if all the vanguard are dual lightning claw). Having a deathblob of 30 crusaders with a chaplain, an Apothecary, and a company ancient with a banner of the emperor Ascendent, as well as the EC, works well in conjunction with this. That said, the other option is making a black Templars horde army. No one is going to have an easy day against 100 marines that are buffed up with chaplains. Probably if you're doing that you'd want more 70-30 or 60-40 so you can get a lot of variety in your shooty squads. Regardless, melee crusader squads should not be discounted. They are still the backbone of Templar armies, in my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5039614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 How do you have a blob of 30 crusaders? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5039725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
4ndroid Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 my current build is 3x 10x Initiate Chain/Boltpistol and 10x Neo Boltgun still painting them up and have yet to field them but the plan is to advance up middle Boltgun Neos as casualties, then when in shooting range fire a few shots and charge the Initiates I'll be supporting with a land speeder/whirlwind combo, and probably some jump pack vanguard Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5039746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
allegedlynerdy Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 How do you have a blob of 30 crusaders? 3 10 man squads together. All close enough that they get all the aura effects. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5039800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawklynn Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 That sounds brutal. I want to try it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5040948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
allegedlynerdy Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 my current build is 3x 10x Initiate Chain/Boltpistol and 10x Neo Boltgun My suggestion would be to do 5 initiates and 5 neophytes per squad, making ten man squads. More flexible and manueverable, wounds won't bleed across, can take more Swordbrother/heavy weapons/special weapons, and less to worry about from morale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5041070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margulix Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Horde Templars, huh. Dunno, anyone tried decent list in footslogging guys? Main problem that they are still pricey compared to orks and etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5042651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
allegedlynerdy Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Horde Templars, huh. Dunno, anyone tried decent list in footslogging guys? Main problem that they are still pricey compared to orks and etc. They're pricey, but they hit hard, and they take hits. Especially with all he aura buffs we get. It can easily take a Tau gunline an entire turn to deal with 15 marines. You get into combat, it's even harder for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5042795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margulix Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Horde Templars, huh. Dunno, anyone tried decent list in footslogging guys? Main problem that they are still pricey compared to orks and etc. They're pricey, but they hit hard, and they take hits. Especially with all he aura buffs we get. It can easily take a Tau gunline an entire turn to deal with 15 marines. You get into combat, it's even harder for them. Spam LRC? Or spam marines? that is the question. They will move really slow, and even orks have teleportation power for this issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5042798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
allegedlynerdy Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Horde Templars, huh. Dunno, anyone tried decent list in footslogging guys? Main problem that they are still pricey compared to orks and etc. They're pricey, but they hit hard, and they take hits. Especially with all he aura buffs we get. It can easily take a Tau gunline an entire turn to deal with 15 marines. You get into combat, it's even harder for them. Spam LRC? Or spam marines? that is the question. They will move really slow, and even orks have teleportation power for this issue. LRC are overpriced and too easy to pop anyways. Unless you can fit 3 or more into the list without sacrificing infantry padding it's not going to work well...8th is all about redundancy, and spreading out points as much as possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5042962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cognative Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 They're pricey, but they hit hard, and they take hits. Especially with all he aura buffs we get. It can easily take a Tau gunline an entire turn to deal with 15 marines. You get into combat, it's even harder for them. Whaaaaaat? I am confused by both statements you've made. 2 attacks each at strength four AP- is not 'hitting hard'. And any Tau gun line that is close to competent can melt power armor Marines before you can say " For the Emperor!" while you spend two turns advancing and not doing anything to them. Foot slogging Black Tide will only work in fluffy games that you have set up with your opponent. It's a lot of fun to do. But it is far from viable in even a pickup game setting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5044197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
allegedlynerdy Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 They're pricey, but they hit hard, and they take hits. Especially with all he aura buffs we get. It can easily take a Tau gunline an entire turn to deal with 15 marines. You get into combat, it's even harder for them.Whaaaaaat? I am confused by both statements you've made. 2 attacks each at strength four AP- is not 'hitting hard'. And any Tau gun line that is close to competent can melt power armor Marines before you can say " For the Emperor!" while you spend two turns advancing and not doing anything to them. Foot slogging Black Tide will only work in fluffy games that you have set up with your opponent. It's a lot of fun to do. But it is far from viable in even a pickup game setting. I've done very well competitively with footslogging. It's not top tier by any means, but no marine list that I know of is currently top tier without being Imperial soup. A Tau gunline will destroy those 15 marines, but that's as far as it will likely get in a turn. By no means is it the be all and end all. However, 100+ marines at 2000 pts is very powerful. Most marine popper weapons won't be able to take out more than 10, 15 marines a turn. Throw in a company ancient with a banner of the emperor Ascendent, slain marines are going to shoot again or fight again 2/3 of the time. Apothecary means you'll be getting a marine back every turn, usually a special or heavy weapon. That said, you should expect heavy casualties. The entire army is basically made of distraction carnifexes. And unless you can take some enemy damage dealers out by turn 2, 3 at the latest, you'll be in trouble. Alternatively, bring slightly fewer marines in crusader squads and bring some jump pack infantry. Use them to tie up damage dealers for a turn or two will your infantry moves up. It's the only viable way I can see playing Templars without just doing 5 man shooty crusader squads. And at that point, you have no real reason to be Templars besides getting a heavy and special weapon in the five man squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5044453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegir_Einarsson Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 I thought about ravenguard vanguard detachement. 3x3agressosrs And one captain with jump pack th&ss. With special stratagem strike from the shadow we have Nice diatraction options. If we talk about pure BT force Lareoth put some Nice list with 2x5 reivers And 10 VV with plasma supported with JP captain. And in another detachement there were huge footslogging blob. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345499-bad-day-at-the-office-how-to-deal-with-gunlines/#findComment-5045406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.