XV85 vs XV8 or why would you take an enforcer?

[Marshal van Trapp]

So with the codex release a few crazy things have happened:

 

1) Coldstar have become amazing!

2) Commanders were both nerfed and buffed

3) the enforcer battlesuit has been rendered obsolete*

 

*or has it?

 

Well today I'm here to start a discussion on that 3rd point, whether or not it's economical or intelligent for you to take an XV85 commander instead of an XV8 commander.

 

So I think the most important thing to consider when deciding between the two is, well what makes them different. This section is super easy because there is only 2 differences, wound total and point cost.

 

The arguement:

 

The base xv8 chassis has 4 wounds whereas the xv85 has 5 wounds.

 

The base xv8 chassis costs 104 points and the xv85 costs 108 points.

 

So with that we can say that the xv85 pays 4 extra points for 1 additional wound. Which means that the only real difference between the two is in survivability, as such we have a real easy way to compair the 2, run them through some survivability math! But before we do that we need one extra piece, the xv86 coldstar. Without the coldstar you could easily say that the enforcer is the better choice, 1 extra wound and 4 more points balances out. But why take an xv85 if you could make it an xv86 instead? There are a few differences between the xv85 and xv86, points, movement and of course the weapon restriction.

 

An xv85 similarly equipped as a coldstar costs 116 points (for 2 burst cannons to match the HOBC) and an xv86 costs 134 points.

 

The xv85 has a move of 8" and advances d6" and the xv86 has a move of 20" as well as an auto advance of 20"

 

The xv85 can take any 4 weapons or support systems it wants but cannot take a high output burst cannon, while the xv86 can not take Cyclic Ion Blasters but can still keep its 1 high output burst cannon.

 

These differences are a bit harder to quantify. If you want a CIB commander, you have to take an xv8 or xv85, whereas the staple quadfusion commander performs better as a coldstar. As long as you can understand these differences that's all we really needed.

 

The math:

 

So with all that said, we now need to do some very basic maths. For the purposes of this discussion I'm not going to use specific weapon profiles but instead some generic common profiles and compair their lethality to both the xv8 and xv85 commanders. For this exercise I will assume the weapons hit because otherwise why are we doing math?

 

First up, the common infantry weapon: rapid fire 1, s4, ap0, D1

 

wounds on 5+ (~.33 wounds) > saves on 3+ (~.33 wounds get through) > inflicts ~.1089 damage total

 

Vs. Xv8 commander, requires approx 36 hits to kill

 

Vs xv85 commander, requires approx 46 hits to kill

 

As you can see, both commanders are resistant to small arms fire, loads of it can kill them but if you are not screening your commander properly then you deserve to die to small arms fire!

 

Next, the MEQ killer: rapid fire 1, s8, ap-3, d2

 

wounds on 3+ (~.66 wounds) > saves on 6+ (~.83 wounds get through) > inflicts 2 damage per wound or approx 1.09 damage per shot

 

Vs xv8 commander, requires about 4 hits to to kill

 

Vs xv85 commander, requires about 5 hits to kill

 

Here is where it starts to get weird, because of multi damage weapons you have to start doing fragments of damage which doesn't really work out but for basic math purposes still figures out ok. As you can see the typical MEQ killer can easily zap down a commander no matter his loadout, however the xv85 might just survive provided he is going against a 5 man meq Hunter squad outside it's rapid fire range as long as he is lucky!

 

Lastly the tank killer: heavy 1, s9, ap-4 Dd6

 

Wound on 3+ (.66 wounds per hit) > save on 6+ (.83 wounds gets through) > deals d6 damage per wound (average 3.5 damage per wound) totaling 1.9173 wounds per hit

 

Vs xv8 commander, requires approx 2 hits to kill

 

Vs xv85 commander, requires approx 3 hits to kill

 

Here the difference is literally fractions of a hit and if you round them both up they both come to 3, as such very big heavy guns it's just not worth it to take an xv85

 

Conclusion:

At this point it's pretty obvious that there is not a huge survivability difference between the two, now is the 4 points to get very marginally more survivable worth it? Probably not, but unless you have something else to spend it on why not? Well if you are running 3 detachments for those 3 commanders that means 12 extra points which can be better invested in giving your other suits support systems or maybe an extra marketing in a fire warrior squad.

 

At this point, barring an FAQ making the regular xv8 only have 3 hard points, I cannot honestly suggest using an xv85 over a plain old crisis, it's just not economical. If you have an extra 4 points laying around and nothing to spend it on then the enforcer is a good choice, but I can honestly say that for me, I will either be taking vx8s or xv86s for my commanders so I can squeeze the points somewhere else!

 

Discuss! Do you think my maths are bad? Did I miss anything? Should I do a comprehensive analysis of the xv8-02 and the xv85 to make it even more math? Lemme know all of your thoughts

[Panzer]

You forgot the actual important point for why the XV8 Commander is the better choice compared to the Enforcer. It has access to the Iridium Suit so it gets a 2+ save.

 

Even without doing some clunky math it should be a pretty clear choice. You take the Coldstar if you want the mobility (even without the HO-BC) and otherwise take the XV8 with Iridium Suit. The Enforcer is only worth considering if you're short on points so you can't afford the Iridium Suit but have enough to spare to get the additional wound over the XV8 Commander. Aka almost never.

 

 

Now the actual question is ... how will it get handled on tournaments? Strictly speaking using the Commander in the actual Commander box as XV8 Commander is a proxy as well as using a Crisis model as Enforcer now is using a proxy as well (was arguable before but not really anymore with the addition of the XV8 Commander Datasheet). I know about many people who decided to use Crisis as Commander since they're so much cheaper and partly because the Index forced them to spam Commander to stay competetive which technically would now force them to use them as either regular Crisis or as XV8 Commander (which are luckily better anyway) and there are also plenty people who build the standard Enforcer Commander who technically can't use them as XV8 Commander or Coldstar now for WYSIWYG tournaments.

Also what about the Iridium Armor. Such a Crisis is build with very specific bitz from the Crisis box. Are XV8 Commander build without those bitz not allowed to take the Iridium armor upgrade on WYSIWYG tournaments?

Those questions should get clarified for each tournament individually or T'au player could run into trouble and potentially get themselves disqualified out of nowhere.

Edited March 23, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Skaorn]

I think that the prevailing feeling is that the XV8 with Iridium Armor (2+ save) is better than the XV85.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Mathematically I believe the xv8-02 is way more survivable than the xv85, the extra save is worth way more than an extra wound, is it worth the 14 point difference? Not sure, but it's noteworthy that it makes the xv8 commander significantly better than the xv85, Idk if GW did it on purpose or not but they effectively killed the enforcer battlesuit. If they'd left the coldstar as a mono-loadout commander then there could at least be an argument to be made for a cheaper option with less survivability but more spamable. Either way I will most likely be using my regular commander jetpacks as conversion fodder for my xv9 conversions or possibly as a bulked up pack for xv8 commanders to distinguish them

[Happy-inquisitor]

You forgot the actual important point for why the XV8 Commander is the better choice compared to the Enforcer. It has access to the Iridium Suit so it gets a 2+ save.

 

Even without doing some clunky math it should be a pretty clear choice. You take the Coldstar if you want the mobility (even without the HO-BC) and otherwise take the XV8 with Iridium Suit. The Enforcer is only worth considering if you're short on points so you can't afford the Iridium Suit but have enough to spare to get the additional wound over the XV8 Commander. Aka almost never.

 

 

Now the actual question is ... how will it get handled on tournaments? Strictly speaking using the Commander in the actual Commander box as XV8 Commander is a proxy as well as using a Crisis model as Enforcer now is using a proxy as well (was arguable before but not really anymore with the addition of the XV8 Commander Datasheet). I know about many people who decided to use Crisis as Commander since they're so much cheaper and partly because the Index forced them to spam Commander to stay competetive which technically would now force them to use them as either regular Crisis or as XV8 Commander (which are luckily better anyway) and there are also plenty people who build the standard Enforcer Commander who technically can't use them as XV8 Commander or Coldstar now for WYSIWYG tournaments.

Also what about the Iridium Armor. Such a Crisis is build with very specific bitz from the Crisis box. Are XV8 Commander build without those bitz not allowed to take the Iridium armor upgrade on WYSIWYG tournaments?

Those questions should get clarified for each tournament individually or T'au player could run into trouble and potentially get themselves disqualified out of nowhere.

 

 

Personal opinion alert : the differences are extremely marginal therefore there is no excuse to proxy. Confusing an opponent with proxies is poor form.

 

The Crisis suit with Iridium parts is what you should use for an Iridium XV8 commander. A FW XV89 is specifically permitted as an alternative in its rules and can be used as an XV8 commander with or without Iridium but IMO you should should be consistent within your army what that model represents.

 

Really old XV8 commander models with the metal bits on should be allowed as either Iridium or regular XV8 commanders on the basis that old models should never be made obsolete. As with the XV89 consistency is the key here - any such old suits should all be with Iridium or all be without it.

 

An Enforcer suit should not be played as an XV8 of any kind in tournament play - it is a proxy.

 

An XV8 suit of any kind should not be played as an XV85 in tournament play - it is a proxy.

 

As always conversions are not proxies if you put the effort in and make it fit the scale and it is easily identifiable. I think Iridium is going to be hard to convert but if someone out there has a great idea for representing it then that's great and while I would run it by the TO first they are usually very receptive.

 

Ultimately it is about balancing the ability to keep using the models in your collection against doing your opponent the courtesy of putting a clear and non-confusing army on the table.  You will never have a problem in tournaments if you are not running proxies, you are potentially making problems for yourself if you do.

[Lemondish]

So, I'm gathering it might be worth using the Iridium suit bits in my Start Collecting box to build a Commander, right?

[The Pounder]

That’s what I’m going to do with my third box (it’s just such good value!)

Though I’m thinking of arming him with some missile pods and a Puretide Engram Neurochip.

My thought is that I want to keep him safe so the missile pod’s range would be handy.

To get the most out of the signature system he needs to be on the table and alive.

Is this a feasible idea?

[Happy-inquisitor]

That’s what I’m going to do with my third box (it’s just such good value!)

Though I’m thinking of arming him with some missile pods and a Puretide Engram Neurochip.

My thought is that I want to keep him safe so the missile pod’s range would be handy.

To get the most out of the signature system he needs to be on the table and alive.

Is this a feasible idea?

 

In PL games it is fantastic and arguably one of the best builds. In points games it is rather overcosted but the benefits of keeping one commander alive until late game may well make the investment worth it. I suggest you go for the Through Unity, Devastation warlord trait and then you do not need the ATS so much, pile on a full load of missiles and it really will put out reliable if unremarkable damage all game.

[The Pounder]

Thanks for that, I’ll be building one very soon.