Terminator Sorcerers with Plasma

[The Fey Mallory]

Because the Terminator Sorcerer also exists in the basic Index as well as the codex, I’ve read that they can still get access to combo-plasma (links below). I used to run Slaanesh terminators with plasma and a power sword, and use the Endless Cacophony strategem to get them to fire twice, overloading with a Lord nearby. This allowed me to fire 5 x 2 x 2D twice, I.e. 40 damage from 5 termies in rapid fire range after deep striking down, all at str8.

 

So... I was wondering if something similar could be done in the TS codex, and thought that 3 Termie sorcerers, with plasma and the Cabalistic Focus stratagem which adds 2 to one casting, would actually be better? Each one would normally get out about 4 damage? Casting Smite twice should yield about 4 mortal wounds per termie, and two plasma shots overloaded (they have the wounds to take risks) gives another 4D. With three of them, that’s 12 mortal wounds and 12 Damage, possibly more if the stragagem is used and they get a D6 on Smite. Instead, one could Death Hex or some other useful spell. On top of this, with their force swords and attacks, they’d be able to clean up in melee too.

 

However, this is *very* pricey, but, I suspect able to deep strike in and remove a Knight immediately, or even split up and remove whatever vehicles are in the way. When not dealing with they big stuff, they have enough magical clout to offer some major support, to say, a large Rubric blob. Furthermore, they’d also be useful for summoning Brimstone Horrors to bubble wrap themselves or others...

 

Furthermore, unlike their Slaanesh version, they don’t really need a supporting Lord to work.

 

So, my questions are:

 

1) Does this seem viable, or simply insane? Too many points? There is, at least, a Command detachment they can go in, yielding 1CP for them.

 

2) Am I right about the ‘stacking’ of the codex and Index rules? Can I essentially use the Codex rule, but take Wargear from the Index? BattleScribe seems to allow it, for what that’s worth. Do I loose the familiar in the process? Would I be using the points value form the Codex?

 

3) Is this our answer to anti-vehicle? Or anything big and scary in fact?

 

Links:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/ThousandSons/comments/7w1qj9/interesting_terminator_sorcerer_fact/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=comment_list

 

See last page of:

 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

 

Thoughts?

 

Mallory.

[Quixus]

You may want to reread the plasma rule. Models do not take mortal wounds on a 1 but are slain, no matter how many wounds remain.

 

No psyker can cast the same power twice.

 

So no, it is not viable. On the other hand you are correct in the assumption that you can use the weapon options form the index on the Terminator Sorcerer from the Codex

[Marshal van Trapp]

No psyker can cast the same power twice.

 

So no, it is not viable. On the other hand you are correct in the assumption that you can use the weapon options form the index on the Terminator Sorcerer from the Codex

Actually, yes they can, as long as that power is smite they can manifest it as many times as they are allowed, however with the new beta psychic rules it does nerf them considerably. I'm really hoping that they do something else to alleviate smite spam because it really hurts 1ksons more than anyone. Although with the plethora of other powers it is kinda nice!

 

Edit: nvm he is right, that is a weird wording in matched play, but that wouldn't stop them from using say doombolt or other damaging secondary powers alongside smite

Edited March 25, 2018 by Marshal van Trapp

[MillionsSons]

On the other hand you are correct in the assumption that you can use the weapon options form the index on the Terminator Sorcerer from the Codex

 

I'm not sure about this, Like other units in our codex, wargear options are limited to combi bolter...

 

the codex says:

• This model may replace its inferno combi-bolter with a power sword.

• This model may take a Familiar.

 

That's the main reasons or SOT sucks, cannot take combi melta or combi plasma (like DG termies do...) 

[Quixus]

The Fey Mallory already posted the relevant rules Here is the quote:

USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX, THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES)

 

 

[The Fey Mallory]

 

No psyker can cast the same power twice.

 

So no, it is not viable. On the other hand you are correct in the assumption that you can use the weapon options form the index on the Terminator Sorcerer from the Codex

Actually, yes they can, as long as that power is smite they can manifest it as many times as they are allowed, however with the new beta psychic rules it does nerf them considerably. I'm really hoping that they do something else to alleviate smite spam because it really hurts 1ksons more than anyone. Although with the plethora of other powers it is kinda nice!

 

Edit: nvm he is right, that is a weird wording in matched play, but that wouldn't stop them from using say doombolt or other damaging secondary powers alongside smite

 

 

I didn't know about the beta rules. Yikes, that's going to be harsh for us, and Daemon armies. Let's hope they change (has anyone heard anything on this? The article I found which talked about this looked like it was pre-codex). 

 

We do have a number of other spells to fall back on, I suppose, so the idea may be still viable, although it would require an suitable HQ aura to allow the plasma to overcharge, which is annoying. So, given this limitation (and the hope that beta smite rule doesn't happen, I'd be a little surprised if they did it and didn't put something in place for us and the daemons, but that may be my naivety) do they sound viable? If we can get them to work, it's a lot of damage output :) I can't remember what a knight has, but I suspect they could take one down upon deepstriking...

 

I supposed taking jumppack lords form the Index isn't legit either?

[Quixus]

You can take the jump pack sorcerer as well. Just follow the flow chart.

[The Fey Mallory]

Okay, so two possible variants (excuse me, I'm thinking aloud a bit here)..

 

1) Change to combi-meltas, and use warptime to get within 6". This would give, say 4 on each roll, and if there's three sorcerers, then that's 12 from weapons, at Str8, Ap-4. It also gets around the suiciding from plasma, and yields slightly more damage. However, you lose range (better get that warptime off), and you'll only really be able to go after big multi-wound targets, like vehicles, walkers, knights etc for full effect. Still, it's quite strong, I think.

 

Nope - the sorceres are not one unit, so you'd need to warptime them individually. Melta won't help (but even without the 'choosing highest' 3 D6 rolls may be argued to average out at about 3-4 each? Gets iffy though)

 

2) For price reduction, do (1) above, but switch to jump packs. You're more vulnerable, but you gain mobility. 142pts each (with plasma) a few points more with melta. Hmm... not much of a price reduction really, is it? But mobile, I guess, which may be paramount when using them to support other units, or hunting secondary targets.

 

3) If I understand that flowchart in my link (1st post above), then we can still take a jumppack lord, giving re-rolls of 1's for 93 pts or so? Worth it?

 

This would put the 3 sorcerers and lord in the 500-550 mark. They'll do a lot of damage on something (take out a Knight immediately, for example) but they'll cost just as much as one, and although they'll make up their points in that scenario though, it'll be important to keep them alive as long as possible. Being characters, I guess they could summon Brimstone horrors, meaning they're never the nearest model, and so cannot be targeted (except by snipers?)

 

4) Hold on - if (3) is legal, then wouldn't 2 havoc units with plasma/melta be cheaper anyway? It would cost you 3CP to deep strike them both though. That would be a problem for me, actually.

 

So it looks like 3 plasma termie sorcerers or jump pack ones + 1 jumppack lord. Pricey, but it is a strong anti vehicle unit. Jump packs will allow them to support other troops more, as well.

 

So, does anyone think this idea is worth pursuing? 

[Quixus]

You can have Lords and Havocs but they cannot have the Thousand Sons Keyword. According to the index:

 

The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the Thousand Sons Legion. Those that have the <LEGION> keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with THOUSAND SONS. If a Heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot have the THOUSAND SONS Faction keyword.

Neither Lords nor Havocs are in that list. While you could field them you would either lose the TS detachment bonuses or would have to field them in their own detachment (with another <LEGION> keyword, Iron Warriors comes to mind). Either way it would no longer be a pure TS army.

[sneakybamsen]

I'm sorry, but you base your outputs on every die passing it's rolls. Three sorcerers with combi-melta and a lord is never gonna get close to killing a knight. Yes, in TDA or with jump packs, you can deep strike them, but they're not going to be in melta range, they will do 3,5 dmg on average provided they hit and wound (3+/4+). Then add invuls for big things. 3 meltas outside melta range will with rerolls 1's to hit average 2,1 or so hits, wound with half and then do damage IF the shot goes through the invul. Realisticly you're looking at 2-3 damage from a 500+ point combination. So not worth it. Rather have rubrics with their sweet bolters fire at it. They trigger the invul anyways, and might have a harder time wounding a big target, but it's also a lot cheaper and more versatile.

 

Also, you cannot summon when you moved in the movement phase, and deep striking counts as having moved. Besides, you'll end up with a very big portion of your points stored for a poor one trick pony that will die just after it's delivered its payload.

 

You'll be better off pursuing something more traditional.

Edited March 26, 2018 by sneakybamsen

[Kite Senet]

Honestly, I find the whole Index/Codex matter rather confusing still; in particular, we have a "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" and it's unclear to me that it could inherit wargear from the plain old "Daemon Prince" from the Index. I'd guess our Terminator Sorcerers could inherit from the index, but they're so differently equipped, with mostly SOT kitbash wargear, that if datasheets have to have the same model name to inherit rules (as I suspect is the case), it seems bizarre that our Terminator Sorcerers can inherit from the very dissimilar Index entry but our Daemon Princes with little substantial differences can't.

[Nym]

So, does anyone think this idea is worth pursuing? 

Since other posters seem to have covered the rules part of your idea, I'll answer the tactical part : it is probably NOT worth pursuing. You should never use maximum damage output to assess a unit's worth. 3 Sorcerers and a Lord will barely scratch an Imperial Knight (they deal ~10 wounds with Combi-meltas, Smite and Infernal gaze), even without beta rule for Smite.

 

3 Obliterators with Veteran of the Long War (1CP), Prescience and Flickering flames (both powers can come from one of our "tax" HQ) cost 195pts (almost a third of the cost) and deal 11 damage to an Imperial Knight. If you factor the cost of a Sorcerer for both psychic powers (103pts and 1CP), it's still only half the cost.

 

It's also more expensive than Magnus, which deals 16 wounds to IK in close combat... (with Diabolic Strength).

Edited March 26, 2018 by Nym

[Quixus]

Honestly, I find the whole Index/Codex matter rather confusing still; in particular, we have a "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" and it's unclear to me that it could inherit wargear from the plain old "Daemon Prince" from the Index. I'd guess our Terminator Sorcerers could inherit from the index, but they're so differently equipped, with mostly SOT kitbash wargear, that if datasheets have to have the same model name to inherit rules (as I suspect is the case), it seems bizarre that our Terminator Sorcerers can inherit from the very dissimilar Index entry but our Daemon Princes with little substantial differences can't.

You deduced it correctly. It does not make sense, but that is the RAW.

[MillionsSons]

 

The Fey Mallory already posted the relevant rules Here is the quote:

USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX, THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES)

 

 

So how do you interpret the above ?

For me, it's Sorcerer terminator is in TS codex, and wargear option are detailed there, so cannot use the ones from the index.

[sneakybamsen]

 

 

The Fey Mallory already posted the relevant rules Here is the quote:

USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX, THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES)

 

 

So how do you interpret the above ?

For me, it's Sorcerer terminator is in TS codex, and wargear option are detailed there, so cannot use the ones from the index.

 

 

You misread it (dunno why people keep doing that) - it says you CAN use WARGEAR options from the index, even if your model has codex rules. If the same piece of wargear is present in the codex, that being a combi-plasma in this case, you use the rules for that piece of wargear in the codex instead of in the index (not that it matters in 90% of the cases as the pieces have the same rules).

[Quixus]

The rules changes most likely apply to point costs.

[MillionsSons]

 

 

 

The Fey Mallory already posted the relevant rules Here is the quote:

USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX, THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES)

 

 

So how do you interpret the above ?

For me, it's Sorcerer terminator is in TS codex, and wargear option are detailed there, so cannot use the ones from the index.

 

 

You misread it (dunno why people keep doing that) - it says you CAN use WARGEAR options from the index, even if your model has codex rules. If the same piece of wargear is present in the codex, that being a combi-plasma in this case, you use the rules for that piece of wargear in the codex instead of in the index (not that it matters in 90% of the cases as the pieces have the same rules).

 

 

Ah ok - you make a good point, there is a distinction between "wargear options" and "wargear rule". And the comment in bracket is only about the latter!

This is cool, and I'm happy because I haven't glued my terminator sorcerer yet haha ( so--> combi melta )

[Quixus]

Magnets!