Space Marines: Assault Army Focused

[Aothaine]

Hey Everyone!

 

First I would like to state that I am posting this here because I think it is important to get as many views as possible. I have been saying and a lot of others have been saying that the space marine codex is more ranged focused than melee. But I'm wondering if some of us are overlooking some really interesting rules. So this is going to be a discussion on the Space Marine codex and units within it. I am aware that the Blood Angel trait helps this type of assault focused discussion will work better with most space marine armies focused on assault but the Space Marine codex has some gems.

 

The Space Marine codex offers a few really interesting options for lists focused on the assault. In my mind there are two ways you can create an assault list. First, plan for the alpha strike and push for your entire list to be on the enemies line by the first-second turn. Second is to plan the assault list to hit your enemy lines in waves. 

 

The chapter tactics that I feel work really well with assault armies are the following: White Scars, Black Templars, Salamanders, Iron Hands. I honestly feel that the White Scars have the best rules for assaulting. For my example I'll be using the White Scars.

 

White Scars can add 2" to every advance roll and charge after they fall back. Their stratagem is 1CP and states that biker units that advance can still shoot and charge this turn. So I'll be building my list to take advantage of this unique stratagem. This list will be 2000 points to highlight that a Space Marine codex can be competitive in an environment designed for competitive play as well.

 

White Scars (Assault Themed List) - 2000pts

 

Battalion - 959

 

[HQ] Kor'Sarro Khan (Warlord) - 107

[HQ] Librarian on Bike - 133

- Storm Bolter / Force Sword / Frag/Krak Grenades

[E] Apothecary on Bike - 80

- Bolt Pistol / Chainsword(Relic: Teeth of Terror) / Frag/Krak Grenades

[E] Company Veterans on Bikes (5-man) - 207

- Storm Shield / Chainsword x4 / Frag/Krak Grenades / Power Sword x1

[E] Company Veterans on Bikes (5-man) - 207

- Storm Shield / Chainsword x4 / Frag/Krak Grenades / Power Sword x1

[T] Scout Squad (5-man) - 75

- Sniper Rifle x5

[T] Scout Squad (5-man) - 75

- Sniper Rifle x5

[T] Scout Squad (5-man) - 75

- Sniper Rifle x5

 

Outrider Detachment - 1041

 

[HQ] Chaplain on Bike - 97

- Storm Bolter / Crozius Arcanum / Frag/Krak Grenades

[F] Assault Squad (10-man) - 178

- Eviscerator x2 / Chainsword x7 / Power Sword x1 / Bolt Pistol x10 / Melta Bomb 

[F] Assault Squad (10-man) - 178

- Eviscerator x2 / Chainsword x7 / Power Sword x1 / Bolt Pistol x10

[F] Assault Squad (10-man) - 178

- Eviscerator x2 / Chainsword x7 / Power Sword x1 / Bolt Pistol x10

[F] Inceptor Squad (3-man) - 135

- Assault Bolter x6

[F] Inceptor Squad (3-man) - 135

- Assault Bolter x6

[F] Inceptor Squad (3-man) - 135

- Assault Bolter x6

 

 

So with this list you drop all three HQ with the two squads of Vet Bikers and the snipers. All three assault squads go in reserve with the Inceptor squads. Inceptor squads clear chaff and assault when they can. Assault squads drop in and try to assault while the bike squads race up the field to assault as well. 

 

There are plenty of bodies on the ground and the assault squads should have enough models to eat a round of shooting before assaulting. The cool thing about this list is that it can always have the ability to strike first. They fall back on their turn and charge in again. This ensures that you have the +1 str from Khan, attack first and can switch targets if you beat them down low enough that another unit that is not in combat can shoot it down. The three scout squads are there to provide covering fire, help against specific characters and priority units. 

 

There are some really cool ways to use Raven Guard with their stratagem but also Salamanders and Black Templar. They would all be used in different ways and I think they can be very effective on the field. 

 

What are you thoughts? Do you think this list could perform well? What other ideas do you guys think might work for Assault Focused Space Marines Codex Lists?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[redmapa]

I think its an interesting list, the dudes over at Frontline gaming are publishing a series of articles of a similar list and its bat reps. Personally I think its a bit lacking in anti-tank and you could split the assault squads into 5men to get more CP, more plasma pistols/eviscerators and more units to tie up enemy elements.

 

As for the state of Space Marine assault, I think its medicore but thats not really a problem when the whole codex is meant for lists that are supposed to work as mid-range shooting and thats what the stratagems/chapter tactics buff, there arent any real buffs for an assault army, there arent stratagems for it, assault is just not something the codex supports, its an after thought meant to aid mid-range shooting as opposed to be a viable tactic that you can base an army around.

 

With that in mind I believe White Scars are really good in moving forward, tar-pitting enemy units and then pulling back to fire at them only to charge again if the unit survives so you could use a "firebase" element and then an "assault" element to your army.

[Aothaine]

I think its an interesting list, the dudes over at Frontline gaming are publishing a series of articles of a similar list and its bat reps. Personally I think its a bit lacking in anti-tank and you could split the assault squads into 5men to get more CP, more plasma pistols/eviscerators and more units to tie up enemy elements.

 

As for the state of Space Marine assault, I think its medicore but thats not really a problem when the whole codex is meant for lists that are supposed to work as mid-range shooting and thats what the stratagems/chapter tactics buff, there arent any real buffs for an assault army, there arent stratagems for it, assault is just not something the codex supports, its an after thought meant to aid mid-range shooting as opposed to be a viable tactic that you can base an army around.

 

With that in mind I believe White Scars are really good in moving forward, tar-pitting enemy units and then pulling back to fire at them only to charge again if the unit survives so you could use a "firebase" element and then an "assault" element to your army.

 

The Eviscerators act as powerfists without -1 to hit and you can only take one per 5 men in the squad and the sgt cannot take one anymore so going 5-man or 10-man doesn't really matter. Taking 2 5-man squads could work really good to as you can add an additional power weapon with one additional attack. The problem with doing this is it increases your units in reserve which in turn makes things interesting. The list already has 9 units that drop on the table so you can then have 9 in reserve. It is something to look into though for sure.

 

Plasma Pistols really are not needed either as there is a ton of anti-infantry chaff and most things you assault are going to either die, fall back and not be able to fire, or stay in combat with you which is also a bad idea. I wasn't aware FLG was working on a similar list I just chose White scars on chance lol. 

 

I think you have a good idea on how to run a possible assault list and from a point of view that is the list I built. I know that Blood Angels do this better. But Space Marine can do it quite effectively as well. Just not quite as effective.

[Deathwalker]

Blood angels don't get Centurions, White scars -do-

I'm not sure anyone would want to get close to a unit that can walk -out- of combat, drop 36 bolter shots and 6d6 flamer shots, then have them charge back in with 6 S 10 AP -4 3 Dam hitting on 3+

Just saying............

[Aothaine]

Blood angels don't get Centurions, White scars -do-

I'm not sure anyone would want to get close to a unit that can walk -out- of combat, drop 36 bolter shots and 6d6 flamer shots, then have them charge back in with 6 S 10 AP -4 3 Dam hitting on 3+

Just saying............

 

For sure. But you need a delivery system for them. most are really expensive. But it is totally an option. Unless you go Raven Guard. I think they can ride stormravens as well. Which is another option and you can attach a dreadnought there as well. Then you could toss your HQ into Terminator armor or just load them up in the flyer too. But it is pretty risky. The bikes make your HQ incredibly mobile with their guard. But Centurions are beautiful and White Scar Centurions dropping in from a Storm Raven would be awesome.

 

If you were curious what this might cost...

 

Total Cost: 847 pts

 

Stormraven Gunship - 358

Twin Lascannon / Twin Multi-Melta / Stormstrike Missile Launchers x2 / Hurricane Bolters x2

 

Centurion Assault Squad (4-man) - 324

- Siege Drills x4 / Flamer x8 / Hurricane Bolter x4

 

Contemptor Dreadnought - 165

- Dreadnought Combat Weapon / Multi-Melta

 

It is a TON of points. But it drops some scary stuff onto the field on turn 2. If Centurions had 6 wounds like the mechanicus robots they would be worth it imho. But man they are so expensive. I'm pretty sure you only want to field something like this is a friendly game. What could be interesting here is if you take a captain & librarian with jump packs and deep strike them in then just take two of those units above and put them in hover mode behind terrain so you don't auto lose from boots on the ground. Still though... this list kind of silly to run two of these. other units are more effective than Centurions right now. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Aothaine

[Deathwalker]

 

Blood angels don't get Centurions, White scars -do-

I'm not sure anyone would want to get close to a unit that can walk -out- of combat, drop 36 bolter shots and 6d6 flamer shots, then have them charge back in with 6 S 10 AP -4 3 Dam hitting on 3+

Just saying............

 

For sure. But you need a delivery system for them. most are really expensive. But it is totally an option. Unless you go Raven Guard. I think they can ride storm ravens as well. Which is another option and you can attaching a dreadnought there as well. Then you could toss your HQ into Terminator armor or just load them up in the flyer too. But it is pretty risky. The bikes make your HQ incredibly mobile with their guard. But Centurions are beautiful and White Scar Centurions dropping in from a Storm Raven would be awesome.

 

If you were curious what this might cost...

 

Total Cost: 847 pts

 

Stormraven Gunship - 358

Twin Lascannon / Twin Multi-Melta / Stormstrike Missile Launchers x2 / Hurricane Bolters x2

 

Centurion Assault Squad (4-man) - 324

- Siege Drills x4 / Flamer x8 / Hurricane Bolter x4

 

Contemptor Dreadnought - 165

- Dreadnought Combat Weapon / Multi-Melta

 

It is a TON of points. But it drops some scary stuff onto the field on turn 2.

 

Don't forget man, those 4" move centurions get +2' move for advancing for being white-scars, so moving up on average 9" is about the same as any other unit. swap out the flamers to melta's and those dudes can still shoot after doing it as well. Yes, they cannot use the hurricanes if they do, but if they get into 6" by doing so?

Do you really want to charge that?

Do you really want them to charge -you-?

 

I'm not even looking at the bikes at this stage dude

Edited March 26, 2018 by Deathwalker

[Aothaine]

Don't forget man, those 4" move centurions get +2' move for advancing for being white-scars, so moving up on average 9" is about the same as any other unit. swap out the flamers to melta's and those dudes can still shoot after doing it as well. Yes, they cannot use the hurricanes if they do, but if they get into 6" by doing so?

 

 

Do you really want to charge that?

Do you really want them to charge -you-?

 

I'm not even looking at the bikes at this stage dude

 

I mean yeah... they can advance and get +2". But they can't charge after advancing. :/ As far as I know only Heretic Astartes can do that with renegade chapters. There might be a Tyranid hive fleet that can do it to... maybe? Black Templars can only re-roll their charge so no advancing and charging. The point is to charge with assault themed lists not just get real close. :/

 

You don't want to charge them no. That is why you just shoot them. They only have a 2+ save. No invlun and no FNP, unless they go Iron Hands. 

No you don't want them charging you so you just focus fire them down. It doesn't take as much as you'd think. 2+ saves are good if you have wounds/bodies to go with them. A rapid firing unit of plasma guns will wreck these guys. S7 AP-3 D2. The problem with Cents is that they are to expensive for what they bring to the table. Trust me, I'd love to be able to field these guys and have them make a difference. It almost seems that you just want a mobile shooting platform. Aggressors do this better. They can advance and fire assault weapons with no penalty, and have 5" move, then if they choose not to move they can fire twice in their shooting phase and overwatch. But the best part about them is that they come in at 102 points less than the centurions.

 

Aggressor Squad (6-man) - 222

- Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets / Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

At 18" this unit tosses out 36+6d6 S4 AP0 D1 attacks, Doesn't need to get in 12" to get the extra attacks from their hurricane bolters, and can do this twice a turn if it did not move. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

I think its an interesting list, the dudes over at Frontline gaming are publishing a series of articles of a similar list and its bat reps. Personally I think its a bit lacking in anti-tank and you could split the assault squads into 5men to get more CP, more plasma pistols/eviscerators and more units to tie up enemy elements.

 

As for the state of Space Marine assault, I think its medicore but thats not really a problem when the whole codex is meant for lists that are supposed to work as mid-range shooting and thats what the stratagems/chapter tactics buff, there arent any real buffs for an assault army, there arent stratagems for it, assault is just not something the codex supports, its an after thought meant to aid mid-range shooting as opposed to be a viable tactic that you can base an army around.

 

With that in mind I believe White Scars are really good in moving forward, tar-pitting enemy units and then pulling back to fire at them only to charge again if the unit survives so you could use a "firebase" element and then an "assault" element to your army.

 

The Eviscerators act as powerfists without -1 to hit and you can only take one per 5 men in the squad and the sgt cannot take one anymore so going 5-man or 10-man doesn't really matter. Taking 2 5-man squads could work really good to as you can add an additional power weapon with one additional attack. The problem with doing this is it increases your units in reserve which in turn makes things interesting. The list already has 9 units that drop on the table so you can then have 9 in reserve. It is something to look into though for sure.

 

Aothaine, where are you getting that bit about eviscerators?

 

My Codex shows Eviscerators have a -1 to hit...and Assault Marines only state that for every 5 models in the unit, 1 can take an Eviscerator. I don't see any additonal restriction that it can't be the Sgt.  Because if it can't be....22 pts for a 1 attack model is beyond utterly worthless.

 

Also, I don't see anything in the Space Marine errata/faq that overrides that...

Edited March 26, 2018 by 9x19 Parabellum

[justicarius6]

For 2000pts I don't see very much anti-tank. 6 Eviscerators won't cut it, that's for sure. Edited March 28, 2018 by justicarius6

[Aothaine]

 

 

I think its an interesting list, the dudes over at Frontline gaming are publishing a series of articles of a similar list and its bat reps. Personally I think its a bit lacking in anti-tank and you could split the assault squads into 5men to get more CP, more plasma pistols/eviscerators and more units to tie up enemy elements.

 

As for the state of Space Marine assault, I think its medicore but thats not really a problem when the whole codex is meant for lists that are supposed to work as mid-range shooting and thats what the stratagems/chapter tactics buff, there arent any real buffs for an assault army, there arent stratagems for it, assault is just not something the codex supports, its an after thought meant to aid mid-range shooting as opposed to be a viable tactic that you can base an army around.

 

With that in mind I believe White Scars are really good in moving forward, tar-pitting enemy units and then pulling back to fire at them only to charge again if the unit survives so you could use a "firebase" element and then an "assault" element to your army.

 

The Eviscerators act as powerfists without -1 to hit and you can only take one per 5 men in the squad and the sgt cannot take one anymore so going 5-man or 10-man doesn't really matter. Taking 2 5-man squads could work really good to as you can add an additional power weapon with one additional attack. The problem with doing this is it increases your units in reserve which in turn makes things interesting. The list already has 9 units that drop on the table so you can then have 9 in reserve. It is something to look into though for sure.

 

Aothaine, where are you getting that bit about eviscerators?

 

My Codex shows Eviscerators have a -1 to hit...and Assault Marines only state that for every 5 models in the unit, 1 can take an Eviscerator. I don't see any additonal restriction that it can't be the Sgt.  Because if it can't be....22 pts for a 1 attack model is beyond utterly worthless.

 

Also, I don't see anything in the Space Marine errata/faq that overrides that...

 

 

That is a good point. I think I was confused because the Sgt was given special equipment rules individually so I assumed that the Eviscerator was meant for one of the other units. In that case, running 5-man squads might be better to get more Eviscerator attacks. Very fair point here. 

 

 

For 2000pts I don't very much anti-tank. 6 Eviscerators won't cut it, that's for sure.

 

There are armies that are mostly vehicles. But when those armies are put on the table you'll just have to play differently. Not every army needs 12 lascannons. But you make do with what you have.

[crazyterran]

How can Assault Centurions move out of combat and shoot in a White Scars detachment? White Scars just let you move out and charge again, unless I misread something posted?

[MeltaRange]

Firstly, just to get this out of the way...you know you didn't pay for Jump Packs right?  I think that's required for them to be in reserve.

Can it perform?  Sure, why not?  It's 2000 points, so it should at least be pretty competitive with other 2000pt lists, especially ones that are built more for fun and theme than just pure power.  Are you as optimized as a Kraken Genestealer&Carnifex swarm backed up by Kronos Hive Guard?  Not really, but that doesn't mean you don't have the tools to win a game vs. that lot.  I'd argue that your mobility combined with the amount of bodies you have is a "hidden gem" that can win you games if you play well.  Also, if you consider "performing" to be forging a cool narrative and/or looks on the tabletop this army could absolutely perform well.  I'm picturing a horde of slightly weathered white armor, heavy on the red White Scars markings to denote how bad ass these guys are.  Maybe each unit is armed with a different "ritualistic weapon" that counts as an Eviscerator or Relic Blade and is an heirloom passed down with the rank.  So, I want to encourage you to do this army vs discourage you because it's not "optimized".

Putting aside for one second that I absolutely believe Blood Angels and Space Wolves do it much better, I still think it can be done in the SM codex to at least a decent effect.  Certainly more-so than many other armies.  I also am convinced that any space marine list worth it's while is going to have "some" kind of assault element in it.  Even the shootiest gunline is going to be under assault from time to time, and you need a counterattacking element.  Ultimately though, I think that a SM army utilizes combat power better in the form of a decisive strike to turn the tide/end the game, rather than in a attrition slopfest ala Hamburger Hill. Now that doesn't mean that it can't be part of your army to want to tie stuff up in a battle of attrition, just that I think it's generally not a great idea to base the bulk of the army around.

Edited March 26, 2018 by MeltaRange

[Deathwalker]

How can Assault Centurions move out of combat and shoot in a White Scars detachment? White Scars just let you move out and charge again, unless I misread something posted?

My bad, they cannot as they lack the fly trait

[Aothaine]

Firstly, just to get this out of the way...you know you didn't pay for Jump Packs right?  I think that's required for them to be in reserve.

 

Can it perform?  Sure, why not?  It's 2000 points, so it should at least be pretty competitive with other 2000pt lists, especially ones that are built more for fun and theme than just pure power.  Are you as optimized as a Kraken Genestealer&Carnifex swarm backed up by Kronos Hive Guard?  Not really, but that doesn't mean you don't have the tools to win a game vs. that lot.  I'd argue that your mobility combined with the amount of bodies you have is a "hidden gem" that can win you games if you play well.  Also, if you consider "performing" to be forging a cool narrative and/or looks on the tabletop this army could absolutely perform well.  I'm picturing a horde of slightly weathered white armor, heavy on the red White Scars markings to denote how bad ass these guys are.  Maybe each unit is armed with a different "ritualistic weapon" that counts as an Eviscerator or Relic Blade and is an heirloom passed down with the rank.  So, I want to encourage you to do this army vs discourage you because it's not "optimized".

 

Putting aside for one second that I absolutely believe Blood Angels and Space Wolves do it much better, I still think it can be done in the SM codex to at least a decent effect.  Certainly more-so than many other armies.  I also am convinced that any space marine list worth it's while is going to have "some" kind of assault element in it.  Even the shootiest gunline is going to be under assault from time to time, and you need a counterattacking element.  Ultimately though, I think that a SM army utilizes combat power better in the form of a decisive strike to turn the tide/end the game, rather than in a attrition slopfest ala Hamburger Hill. Now that doesn't mean that it can't be part of your army to want to tie stuff up in a battle of attrition, just that I think it's generally not a great idea to base the bulk of the army around.

 

Doh! So correct. Also I feel that you are correct in that assessment of Space Marines. It almost seems like the Space Marine codex was designed as a jack of all trades but a master of none. Where the Blood Angels are the masters of assault and it remains to be seen what the Space Wolves will become. I think that the chapters that I mentioned can build assault armies but yeah, they won't do it quite as well as a specialist in the field.

[Kallas]

Aothaine, where are you getting that bit about eviscerators?

My Codex shows Eviscerators have a -1 to hit...and Assault Marines only state that for every 5 models in the unit, 1 can take an Eviscerator. I don't see any additonal restriction that it can't be the Sgt.  Because if it can't be....22 pts for a 1 attack model is beyond utterly worthless.

 

Also, I don't see anything in the Space Marine errata/faq that overrides that...

The Sergeant can take the Eviscerator. But he's better off with a Power Fist (-10pts for 1 less AP and a Bolt Pistol) every time.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Aothaine, where are you getting that bit about eviscerators?

My Codex shows Eviscerators have a -1 to hit...and Assault Marines only state that for every 5 models in the unit, 1 can take an Eviscerator. I don't see any additonal restriction that it can't be the Sgt.  Because if it can't be....22 pts for a 1 attack model is beyond utterly worthless.

 

Also, I don't see anything in the Space Marine errata/faq that overrides that...

The Sergeant can take the Eviscerator. But he's better off with a Power Fist (-10pts for 1 less AP and a Bolt Pistol) every time.

 

 

Wrong, and here's why.

 

The last column of every weapon (melee and ranged) has a value that is invisible.  The column header is "Coolness".  And the value for Eviscerator (again, invisible) is: "Infinite" whereas the value for Power Fist is "Moderate".   That makes the Eviscerator better than the Power Fist.  :-D

[Kallas]

Yeah,

well...

 

[MeltaRange]

Absolutely agree that you can make an assault oriented list from a variety of chapters.  Personally, I'm a fan of the Crimson Fists here, especially when combining Pedro with Dreads, Assault Cents or Terminators.  Not only that but the Crimson Fists tactics/stratagems also buff your chaff clearing abilities nicely, so those units are potentially more apt to see combat where they want.  I think there's some synergy there that lends itself to an effective assault army.  Salamanders as well.  Multi-Melta armed Contemptors go from hitting their mark 33% of the time to 65% of the time (assuming they moved) from the chapter tactic alone.  Combine this with the fact that because of their 60mm base size, a Dreadnought can actually charge and be in combat to attack an enemy, while still benefiting from the 6" aura of a character who deep struck 9" away from the same enemy unit.  And, their chapter tactic has good synergy with a Dread that's in a Captain's re-roll range in case they end up getting a lone 2 on the hit roll.  You're looking at a ~85% chance to hit and wound anything with T7 or below with each attack from the Contemptor in this case. (up from a ~65% chance from a non-Salamanders Contemptor in Captain's aura)

 

I just think that you're barking up the wrong tree a little bit with your White Scars.  Assault Marines are great and I do like the 10 man units, but you're going to need some actual killing power as well.  For a little under 1100 points, you could get 3x6 Aggressors and 2x10 Assault Marines.  To me that's a hell of a lot more scary because you have 18 power fists running up the board, shooting the whole way while the Assault Marines run distraction. Toss in a max size Bike unit as a target for Born in the Saddle, and now you're talking about an extreme amount of dakka that's in your face very quickly.

[Aothaine]

 

I just think that you're barking up the wrong tree a little bit with your White Scars.  Assault Marines are great and I do like the 10 man units, but you're going to need some actual killing power as well.  For a little under 1100 points, you could get 3x6 Aggressors and 2x10 Assault Marines.  To me that's a hell of a lot more scary because you have 18 power fists running up the board, shooting the whole way while the Assault Marines run distraction. Toss in a max size Bike unit as a target for Born in the Saddle, and now you're talking about an extreme amount of dakka that's in your face very quickly.

 

 

Funnily enough. I actually posted a similar list to what you're proposing in the lists section a day or two ago. 18 Aggressors and I think I ended up settling with two quad lascannon predators. Originally I was using more Intercessors to backup the Aggressors but I don't think it is best. Also with the White Scars Aggressors advancing 1d6+2 and not suffering the penalty to hit it makes them pretty darn interesting.

 

Though I could see the benefit of dropping in something else with melta guns possibly. I'll have to figure out how to work it. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Aothaine

[Indefragable]

 

 

Aothaine, where are you getting that bit about eviscerators?

My Codex shows Eviscerators have a -1 to hit...and Assault Marines only state that for every 5 models in the unit, 1 can take an Eviscerator. I don't see any additonal restriction that it can't be the Sgt.  Because if it can't be....22 pts for a 1 attack model is beyond utterly worthless.

 

Also, I don't see anything in the Space Marine errata/faq that overrides that...

The Sergeant can take the Eviscerator. But he's better off with a Power Fist (-10pts for 1 less AP and a Bolt Pistol) every time.

 

 

Wrong, and here's why.

 

The last column of every weapon (melee and ranged) has a value that is invisible.  The column header is "Coolness".  And the value for Eviscerator (again, invisible) is: "Infinite" whereas the value for Power Fist is "Moderate".   That makes the Eviscerator better than the Power Fist.  :-D

 

 

That's why it's reprehensible that Death Company can't take Eviscerators...they should go together like spaghetti and meatball...

 

Back to Asaullty vanilla marines doing assaulty vanilla marine things.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

 

 

Aothaine, where are you getting that bit about eviscerators?

My Codex shows Eviscerators have a -1 to hit...and Assault Marines only state that for every 5 models in the unit, 1 can take an Eviscerator. I don't see any additonal restriction that it can't be the Sgt.  Because if it can't be....22 pts for a 1 attack model is beyond utterly worthless.

 

Also, I don't see anything in the Space Marine errata/faq that overrides that...

The Sergeant can take the Eviscerator. But he's better off with a Power Fist (-10pts for 1 less AP and a Bolt Pistol) every time.

 

 

Wrong, and here's why.

 

The last column of every weapon (melee and ranged) has a value that is invisible.  The column header is "Coolness".  And the value for Eviscerator (again, invisible) is: "Infinite" whereas the value for Power Fist is "Moderate".   That makes the Eviscerator better than the Power Fist.  :-D

 

 

That's why it's reprehensible that Death Company can't take Eviscerators...they should go together like spaghetti and meatball...

 

Back to Asaullty vanilla marines doing assaulty vanilla marine things.

 

 

It's absolute madness...it's a greek tragedy.  Then again, Death Company (way cool) with Eviscerators (infinte cool), would probably tear a hole in the universe. In fact, it's probably how the Eye of Terror came into being..."One day a brother lost to the black rage picked up an eviscerator...."

[Panzer]

You can certainly build an assaulty list with the vanilla Codex, however Marine lists always work best when you mix shooty and choppy. Even BA lists.

And since BA do the choppy part undeniably better I'd argue the choppy element should only be there to support the shooty element of vanilla lists and not be the main focus.

[Deathwalker]

You can certainly build an assaulty list with the vanilla Codex, however Marine lists always work best when you mix shooty and choppy. Even BA lists.

And since BA do the choppy part undeniably better I'd argue the choppy element should only be there to support the shooty element of vanilla lists and not be the main focus.

I agree with this 100%

Just going "I am blood angel CHARGE!!" is the very definition of a glass cannon with an inbuilt crack in it. We can mitigate some of the opportunity cost with lemartes with DC and Decent of angels / forlorn fury stratagems, but a 40 point chaff squad can deny that whole idea real quick.

8th really seems to favour the shooty approach in general terms, but a 4 pnt PS is just as effective in melee and carving hard targets as a lascannon for a lot less points.

[Claws and Effect]

No one does alpha strike assault better than Raven Guard.

 

Not sure how sustainable it is, though.

 

For Salamanders there's something to be said for a bunch of 2 man Company Vets squads with storm bolters and CCW. Each individual squad gets the chapter Tactic rerolls, so you can really leverage it.

[9x19 Parabellum]

You can certainly build an assaulty list with the vanilla Codex, however Marine lists always work best when you mix shooty and choppy. Even BA lists.

And since BA do the choppy part undeniably better I'd argue the choppy element should only be there to support the shooty element of vanilla lists and not be the main focus.

 

Seconding this.  You can't go in all hot sauce, charge of the Rohirrim on Gondor style, even with BA, and hope to do achieve anything.  Space Marine assault is one of three things:

 

distraction

mop up

critical/surgical/precision target