Making Chaos Space marines (and troops) more viable

[Ishagu]

Basic Marines ad Chaos Marines should cost 11 points, Guardsmen should be 6 points, Cultists 5.

 

Gaunts need a price hike also. In fact, all horde options. GW hasn't balanced more Elite infantry vs disposable hordes correctly in terms of points.

[Iron_Within]

It's a good observation that hordes are too cheap vs basic elite being too expensive. 

E.g. I think Chaos Space Marines troops getting a price drop to 12 (or 11) is reasonable, meaning that marines are 3 times the price o cultists (or 2.5 ish if increased to 5 points). Ultra elite units and tanks like Riptides, Obliterators, Leman Russes and the like should remain the same price though.

[techsoldaten]

 

I've been looking at Deathwatch and saw a few things we could learn from.

 

Well yes, those are their thing. That's why they're Deathwatch and not any other regular chapter.

Also DW are far from being a good army currently so I'm not sure if it's that useful to look at what they have anyway.

 

 

Yes, well, that was the point. CSMs should not be like DW Veterans.

 

If we're talking about making CSMs more viable, we should really consider how they function within the army. Just the fact CSMs have screening units is a major advantage.

[Zodd1888]

DW do have screens, just not monofaction, and they still aren't used.

 

They suffer from symptomatic overpriced PA package, similar to Rubric/Tactical/CSM/Assault.

 

DG PA are fairly good due to plague weapons and FNP. Zerkers are fine with double attacks. Noise marines are "okay," but are basically +1 hybrid marines.

 

GW just doesn't have an answer for PA that isn't already covered by another unit in PA. Saturation of the same core unit/stats has resulted in difficulties for balance. They've got to consolidate these data slates and grandfather some things to fix the issue.

 

Anyone who says 5++, AP -2 bolters, with +1 save against damage 1 is equal to a 5+++ and RR1 to wound (and access to special weapons) OR double attacks in assault OR 3 shot assault and +1 attack marines must enjoy glue.

[Redtoof]

Basic Marines ad Chaos Marines should cost 11 points, Guardsmen should be 6 points, Cultists 5.

Gaunts need a price hike also. In fact, all horde options. GW hasn't balanced more Elite infantry vs disposable hordes correctly in terms of points.

Agree in general, though I'd be worried about going too far the other way. Toughness 3, 6+ save units are very vulnerable these days when anyone actually takes anti infantry.

[ChazSexington]

My list remains what it pretty much always has been:

• 1 CP stratagem to fire bolters again (Fury of the Legion)
• Battleshock mitigation
• Narrow the point gap between Cultists/IG and CSMs/SMs by 2 points
• Bolters should be AP-1 (Boltrifles are still 30" range)
• Make IoE a 5+ FnP instead and give IoV the 5+ DttFE and +1 LD. IoD can give -1 to hit (flies). 
• Remove the Cultists' ability to use VotLW, possibly through keying it to IoE.
• Bring back the option to take bolt pistols, bolters, and chainswords
• Have Renegade Chapters miss out on VotLW and FotL, but gain access to something else

 

What honestly kills the CSM is opportunity point cost. What are you missing out on by taking them? The points you sink into CSMs are invariably better spent on Cultists and a dedicated CC/Ranged units in an edition where firepower is criminally undercosted. Why would you take CSMs with chainswords and bolt pistols when you can take Khorne Berzerkers, Possessed, or even Chosen? Why take two plasma guns and a combi-plasma when Chosen and Havocs can take 5 and 4 plasma guns, respectively, and then a combi? Or Noise Marines or MoS Obliterators for ranged destruction? Or Plague Marines if you really want to camp something?

 

To me, it's always better to take Cultists and a dedicated unit. Cultists are cheap board controlling Troop choices, while more dedicated units can do damage. You get the worst of both worlds with the CSM. It kinda boils down to the problem SMs have: It's always better to replace a SM unit with an IG unit. 

 

The only reason for taking CSMs is that you take them for fluff reasons, which I do, but I always feel like I'm hamstringing myself when I do it. I would much prefer to be able to build a list without Cultists for both my Alpha Legion and Red Corsairs without having to tell my opponent he needs to tone down his list. It essentially comes down to faulty design philosophy and game design.

 

[Ishagu]

Cultists and Guardsmen are more attractive because they are more efficient. Having a large number of bodies is it's own defence.

 

Marines don't actually need much changed, just a point readjustment, along with one for the various horde options. You'll find that elite units are struggling in general - Same with expensive tanks and monsters. The premium for high stats is current too high in the game.

 

Edit: Typo

[ChazSexington]

Cultists and Guardsmen are more attractive because they are more efficient. Having a large number of bodies is it's own defence.

 

Marines don't actually need much changed, just a point readjustment, along with one for the various horde options. You'll find that elite units are struggling in general - Same with expensive tanks and monsters. The premium for high stats is current too high in the game.

 

Edit: Typo

 

Land Raider being probably the worst offender. Elite units struggle because firepower is too cheap, imho. If they raised the price of all weapons by 50%, we'd see a shift. 

[Panzer]

 

Cultists and Guardsmen are more attractive because they are more efficient. Having a large number of bodies is it's own defence.

 

Marines don't actually need much changed, just a point readjustment, along with one for the various horde options. You'll find that elite units are struggling in general - Same with expensive tanks and monsters. The premium for high stats is current too high in the game.

 

Edit: Typo

 

Land Raider being probably the worst offender. Elite units struggle because firepower is too cheap, imho. If they raised the price of all weapons by 50%, we'd see a shift. 

 

 

110% agreed. The damage output in 40k went through the roof (not just since 8th edition tho).

[Ishagu]

I don't mind the damage. These battles are brutal and bloody. It's intentional.

Unfortunately the expensive units don't have the staying power to earn their points so, as I mentioned before, their points premium needs to be reduced.

 

Cheaper units are more survivable because of their sheer numbers, we need an adjustment across the board :-(

 

Marines are a symptom of a bigger, general problem.

[ChazSexington]

I don't mind the damage. These battles are brutal and bloody. It's intentional.

Unfortunately the expensive units don't have the staying power to earn their points so, as I mentioned before, their points premium needs to be reduced.

 

Cheaper units are more survivable because of their sheer numbers, we need an adjustment across the board :-(

 

Which also affects Eternal War missions - they've become pointless - and first turn, which is now often decisive. 

[Iron_Within]

ive sent my email but speaking in broad terms what should a csm unit do better than cultists and vice versa?

 

CSM should have better damage potential, staying power and objective control.

Cultists imo should have better board control.

Atm the cultists do all 4 better.

[Panzer]

What I'd like to see to balance Cultists and Chaos Marines is (assuming GW won't mutate them into Primaris and making Primaris even more durable):

 

 - Bigger min-size of Cultist units. Makes them less spammable for cheap CP and more vulnerable to morale tests (the unit won't be wiped before having to suffer casualties from morale).

 - 2-3p cheaper Chaos Marines. Currently they are more than thrice as expensive as Cultists but not thrice as good. Neither damage wise, nor durability wise, nor utility wise.

 - no VotLW for Cultists. No need for keyword shenanigans, just exclude them in the Stratagem text. They have their own personal Stratagem already, no need for them to have that one as well.

 - I like "DreamIsCollapsing"s idea of turning Chosen into Squad leader. Currently Chosen have even less of a place than Chaos Marines in the army and need a serious re-work. By doing this GW would "solve" two problems at once (not really, just remove one of them). Chosen being an upgrade to Squad leader for a few points (max 5p I'd say) with different unit-wide buffs for selection depending on what you want to do with the Squad. That would be especially neat with the huge max-size of Chaos Marine Squads we have compared to the loyalists.

[Aothaine]

I'm not sure if MSU clown car rhinos are competitive, but it is a niche that is fillable by CSM and not Cultists.

 

Chaos Rhinos should be able to hold 20-man squads specifically because of this comment. ^_^

[Panzer]

20-man Rhinos would be awesome. :D

But seriously, I wish Rhinos could carry 11 or 12 models so we can have all the special/heavy weapons + 1-2 characters. I mean T'au can do that as well with their Devilfish, why not Rhinos?

[Khornestar]

I agree with preventing cultists from using VotLW. There’s no reason they should be able to, in terms of background, and since it’s a case of background affecting rules, it’s actually relevant.