neonmole Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Hi guys, Some of you may have seen how my Blood Angels army has taken shape over the past year through my blog (GrimDark Blood Angels)! The time has come to consider the next phase of this project, and I have come to the conclusion that I want to take the plunge into the Primaris pool... Basically, the models are really cool, I want to paint them, and if we are being honest that’s the future. My question though is how viable a predominantly Primaris army actually is on the table? I say this, as despite the fact that I am a hobbiest, I also do like to take decent lists and play more competitive games. When I say predominantly Primaris, I am prepared to make some expections for Characters, DC, and SG. Basically because without these units it’s not really Blood Angels anymore, plus they over cool “Primarisizing” modding opportunity! I see some reasons why Primaris could potentially be strong for BA - - Red Thirst: You are paying two attacks for Primaris models, which ordinarily I don’t think offers a ton of utility, however with Red Thirst a group of Primaris becomes a legitimate combat concern. I think this rule adds a lot of value to Primaris models (perhaps moreso than any other chapter tactic). - By extension, Reivers: these guys could be solid? Granted they can’t use DOA etc, but you could possible use them as more of a second wave, in tandem with a big SG blob that is utilising? Or even DC with forlorn fury. - Standard of Sacrifice: This seems like a match made in heaven for Primaris, suddenly you are really pretty damn efficient in terms of pts/tankyness. 9pts per wound on intercessors with a 3+/5+FNP is no joke. On the more negative side of things, I feel like both Redemptors and Repulsors are not great. Not only do they not take advantage of our rules, they are also so expensive that you only ever have a couple, which at that point seems pointless, as you are just giving your opponents lascannons (or similar) a target. It feels like it makes sense to just go all infantry at that point and deny him any good targets. Anyway, I would be really curious to get thoughts on this subject as it’s something I want to do, but have only my own thoughts on, and no real experience. I know some guys on this forum have tried it, so eager to hear more! Cheers guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I do pretty well in my casual/semi-competetive meta so far. Mostly thanks to Intercessors and Inceptors. However I do include non-Primaris HQs like Captain Smash and my Librarian Dread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Primaris works quite well in blood angels army. I have never ran a full primaris force but many times I have used primaris core to good use. I think you hit the spot on what is good. Standard of sacrifice is great with primaris. I use it all the time with my aggressors. It works great with most primaris. Don’t expect Reivers to do that much damage. However they are as tough as intercessor and are great to hold their ground. I think you forgot inceptors, great JP troops with good firepower, just be careful as they are expensive. When I run primaris list, they sometimes replace DC as their role is to clear out screens. They have less volume of attacks than DC but it can save some CP. Depending on the target, T5 ap1 can make them very good too. Be prepare however to experience the three drawbacks of primaris forces: 1- lack of real long range anti tanks 2- lack of mobility (somehow) 3- lack of board control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Primaris actually work decently well with Blood Angels as the others have pointed out. Intercessors are really good but so are Reivers if you can stomach their tiny-man ankles. The +1 to wound goes a long way, the reivers are still 2 base attack with the knife making them 3 base attacks each. They are nothing to laugh at imho. The lack of ranged-anti tank hurts and the only real form of melee anti-tank I can think of is from plasma or the Aggressor fists. Mixing primaris and old marines is the way to move forward imho. At least until they decide to phase out old marines and allow Primaris Death Company and Primaris Sanguinary Guard. In my opinion the primaris infantry that work best with Blood Angels are in this order. Reivers, Intercessors, Inceptors, Helblasters, Aggressors. This does not mean that Aggressors are bad. They just don't work well with most Blood Angels lists. However, a list could easily be built around 2-3 units of them if desired. Going all primaris with Blood Angels can work. Just be prepared to have a more difficult time with vehicles until some heavy weapon primaris are released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I would say the order of effectiveness for Primaris units in a BA army go: 1. Intercessors 2. Inceptors 3. Hellblasters 4. Reivers 5. Aggressors 6. HQ units 461. Repulsor Of course that's just my opinion and YMMV. In short, Intercessors are "best" for the reasons you mentioned: hardy line Troops that are a good balance of resilience and damage output and make decent use of Red Thirst. Inceptors synergize with all of our Jump Pack units. Hellblasters are the balancepoint that can provide reasonable firepower to back up the rest of the army. Reivers should do well with BA, but in my counts-as games I have just found them to be a sort of Deep Striking unit of Scouts...in a bad way. Aggressors....yea. And almost any HQ unit we have has more utility or points-efficiency then the current crop of Primaris HQ's. If you're stuck with them from the Dark Imperium box, then so be it. Otherwise...look at pretty much anything else. And the Repulsor is a hard pass. Just my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I find it weird it’s been mentioned twice that aggressors are not very good for blood angels. Every time Ive field them they performed well. Maybe they get overlooked because they don’t benefit as much from red thirst but they are great dakka units. They really helped me to clear out stealers, gaunt, guards, pox walkers, boys, etc. Maybe I just play in an area where we have a lot of players with hi model count army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendent Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Agressors are fine, they just don't have any particular synergy for us. I'm planning on picking up a box or two and using them to bolster my Intercessor lines from time to time since they're reasonably cheap for their firepower.I really like Reivers for reasons I've elaborated on a bunch- I basically use them as highly durable scouts and have used them to great effect in objective holding and harassment roles. I'll also say I've actually really like the Gravis Captain and the Primaris Lieutenants for buffing my backfield. Having any sort of reroll for lascannon Predators or Hellblasters is pretty important and the captain provides that as well as some solid counter-charge capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I'd rate Reiver below Aggressors for sure. They may have better synergy with our trait than Aggressors but they're still worse imo. The Redemptor Dread is just generally bad and is ranked last for me. The Repulsor isn't particularly well ranked but since it's the only way to get ranged anti-tank in a Primaris list I can't rank it too low. So for me it's: 1. Intercessor/Inceptor 2. Hellblaster 3. Aggressor 4. Repulsor 5. Reiver (just take more Intercessor or Inceptor instead) 6. Redemptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 The Repulsor isn't particularly well ranked but since it's the only way to get ranged anti-tank in a Primaris list I can't rank it too low. I think that this is one area where non-Primaris units really need some consideration. It is hard to beat the points efficiency of a Lascannon Dev squad. Until Primaris get some points-efficient anti-tank, you will need to consider this. The problem with a Repulsor is that it is an expensive model in an army of expensive infantry which makes it a big target. One of the best ways to play Primaris is to go all-infantry and deny your opponent any valuable targets for his anti-tank guns (apart from units like SG, Inceptors, Hellblasters etc :p). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonmole Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 Thanks for all your thoughts guys - you mostly confirm the thoughts I was having on this. The problem with a Repulsor is that it is an expensive model in an army of expensive infantry which makes it a big target. One of the best ways to play Primaris is to go all-infantry and deny your opponent any valuable targets for his anti-tank guns (apart from units like SG, Inceptors, Hellblasters etc ). I think this is a really astute point, given the lack of armour options, and how expensive they are, it really makes sense to just go all infantry and deny your opponent viable targets. In an all comers environment (having been on the receiving end of this with a Predator killshot list) I think there is a lot of value in this approach. It also feels like it has natural synergy with the main strength of Primaris, which is basically tough all purpose infantry. The big gap obviously then is the anti-armour/monster piece, which many have highlighted. Given the restrictions I am imposing on myself, I feel my best options here are (our very strong) Characters, Sanguinary Guard, and to a degree, Death Company with hammers. I will be working initially on a 1750 point list (event I am targeting is this size), here is a *rough* idea of what I think might work? I am under no illusions that this is top tier competitive. The idea is to paint some cool models, and have a chance of winning some games! - Cap Smash - Mephiston - Sanguinor - 5 Intercessors - 5 Intercessors - 5 Intercessors - 12 Death Company (3 Hammers) - 6 Reivers - 6 Reivers - 6 Reivers - Sanguinary Ancient (Standard of Sacrifice) - 10 Sanguinary Guard Basic principle is obviously to have a strong alpha strike capability between DoA on the SG, and FF on the DC. Reivers are a bit of a beta strike, since you dont rely on them making the 9", but hope that they are too busy dealing with your other units on turn one, allowing them to do something later. Intercessors of course are there to do what they do. Advance up the field, sit on objectives, and attack anything they can. Any feedback on this. Is it terrible? (I think it might be! Haha) or does it have some teeth? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendent Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 The Repulsor is a little bit underwhelming but I'd still much rather take have it in a list than a Land Raider of any type. The Fly keyword take it from being thoroughly mediocre to at least usable since you don't have to worry about it getting locked in combat for the entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 True, the Landraider is even worse. :D The biggest problem is that you don't really present other targets for your opponents anti-tank stuff and the Repulsor is simply not durable enough to tank all that on his own. If you take one, take two ... and that's half your army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendent Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 It sort of goes back to one of the primary issues with Primaris, really- there's no cheap transport options! I'd give a kidney for a hover Rhino even just letting me cram some Hellblasters into a standard drop pod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I honestly don't care about the transport capability of the Repulsor. I mostly care about it's anti-tank shooting. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendent Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 It definitely fills a different role for someone running a pure Primaris list than it does for a mixed force, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonmole Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 Ok.. I just came up with another idea. Which is to go the complete opposite direction. - Primaris Captain (Warlord with Artisan for 3DMG powersword) - Primaris LT (powersword) - Primaris Ancient (standard of sacrifice) - 9 Intercessor (grenade launcher, powersword) - 9 Intercessor (grenade launcher, powersword) - 9 Intercessor (grenade launcher, powersword) - Repulsor (AT loadout) - Repulsor (AT loadout) - Repulsor (AT loadout) With tweaking this is 1750ish. Could definitely get under. This is obviously a very simple list... 3 Repulsors full of stuff, wants to drive up the table, grab objectives and sit on the opponent. Very much a blunt force list! I’m pretty sure this isn’t very good... but against an opponent who can’t deal with it it might just work? I mean, 3 Repulsors is not easy to deal with, and 30 Primaris models with FNP... again, not trivial to shift. Something about this list really appeals to me! Feels very much like how marines as portrayed in the fiction operate! What do you think. - So dumb it just might work? - Just dumb! Discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I saw a Raven Guard list doing something similar on one of the tournament streams. Two Repulsors with Intercessors and an infiltrating blob of Aggressors and Captain. Maybe more but I don't remember the rest. It did decently. Mainly due the sick alpha strike infiltrating Aggressors provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I will be working initially on a 1750 point list (event I am targeting is this size), here is a *rough* idea of what I think might work? I am under no illusions that this is top tier competitive. The idea is to paint some cool models, and have a chance of winning some games! - Cap Smash - Mephiston - Sanguinor - 5 Intercessors - 5 Intercessors - 5 Intercessors - 12 Death Company (3 Hammers) - 6 Reivers - 6 Reivers - 6 Reivers - Sanguinary Ancient (Standard of Sacrifice) - 10 Sanguinary Guard Basic principle is obviously to have a strong alpha strike capability between DoA on the SG, and FF on the DC. Reivers are a bit of a beta strike, since you dont rely on them making the 9", but hope that they are too busy dealing with your other units on turn one, allowing them to do something later. Intercessors of course are there to do what they do. Advance up the field, sit on objectives, and attack anything they can. Any feedback on this. Is it terrible? (I think it might be! Haha) or does it have some teeth? I would sooner see Inceptors or even Hellblasters than Reivers as I think they would supply some of the firepower that the list is lacking. A squad of plasma Inceptors dropping in with Captain Smash and overcharging effectively allow you to alpha-strike a second target. Even a squad of 3 will get an average of 12 S8 2D AP-4 when overcharging and if they come in from the drop, there is very little your opponent can do to stop them unless he had enough chaff to created some very big screens (in which case, clear the screens first and bring them in T2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I saw a Raven Guard list doing something similar on one of the tournament streams. Two Repulsors with Intercessors and an infiltrating blob of Aggressors and Captain. Maybe more but I don't remember the rest. It did decently. Mainly due the sick alpha strike infiltrating Aggressors provide. Infiltrating Aggressors are no joke. They really unload a massive amount of fire-power. The main problem with that option is you really need the first turn. Otherwise your Aggressors will get shot off the board. Remember they are only T5 with a 3+ save. I prefer them with White Scars. The advance and shoot ability without penalty work really well together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ornithologist Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Ok.. I just came up with another idea. Which is to go the complete opposite direction. - Primaris Captain (Warlord with Artisan for 3DMG powersword) - Primaris LT (powersword) - Primaris Ancient (standard of sacrifice) - 9 Intercessor (grenade launcher, powersword) - 9 Intercessor (grenade launcher, powersword) - 9 Intercessor (grenade launcher, powersword) - Repulsor (AT loadout) - Repulsor (AT loadout) - Repulsor (AT loadout) With tweaking this is 1750ish. Could definitely get under. This is obviously a very simple list... 3 Repulsors full of stuff, wants to drive up the table, grab objectives and sit on the opponent. Very much a blunt force list! I’m pretty sure this isn’t very good... but against an opponent who can’t deal with it it might just work? I mean, 3 Repulsors is not easy to deal with, and 30 Primaris models with FNP... again, not trivial to shift. Something about this list really appeals to me! Feels very much like how marines as portrayed in the fiction operate! What do you think. - So dumb it just might work? - Just dumb! Discuss... I would add 2 units of 3 inceptors do do Deep Strike Shenanigans and call it a nice 2k list. I would also make one repulsor with the gatling cannon for some horde clear, and because I have gotten some good use from mine. Maybe even change it to 1 9 man sqd of intercessors and 2 5 man squads, then look at loading some aggressors into the last tank. I don't have/want to buy 2 more Repulsors to make this list work though.... Edit: Yeah, drop it to an 8 man, 5man and 5man intercessor units. you get a unit of 3 aggressors to jump out with some closerange firepower/melee. then you can add in 2 3 man inceptor units with bolters. The whole shebang is basically 2k points, and has 5 drops. You only have 6 command points, but theres not really much there that can use it. If I knew of others who had some Repuslors on hand to borrow, I would test this list out. Mostly for lols, but also for science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonmole Posted March 29, 2018 Author Share Posted March 29, 2018 I like all of these ideas a lot. Especially the suggestion to scale up to 2k with 2 units of Inceptors. I totally agree with this, and was actually something I was thinking about myself! However, for the purposes of this list, it’s for a 1750 point event, so that’s not an option! I also like the Agressors idea, but I’m afraid I just can’t make it fit into the framework of the list I have in mind. Here is what I consider to be a reasonably polished version of the list, very curious as to your thoughts. ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [89 PL, 1745pts] ++ + HQ + Primaris Captain 2. Artisan of War, Warlord . Bolt rifle and bolt pistol with optional power sword: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle, Power sword Primaris Lieutenants . Primaris Lieutenant: Power sword + Troops + Intercessor Squad Auxiliary grenade launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword Intercessor Squad Auxiliary grenade launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword Intercessor Squad Auxiliary grenade launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword Intercessor Squad Auxiliary grenade launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword Intercessor Squad Auxiliary grenade launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword + Elites + Primaris Ancient Standard of Sacrifice + Dedicated Transport + Repulsor Ironhail heavy stubber, 2x Krakstorm grenade launcher, Las-talon, Onslaught gatling cannon, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon . Two fragstorm grenade launchers: 2x Fragstorm grenade launcher . Two storm bolters: 2x Storm bolter Repulsor Ironhail heavy stubber, 2x Krakstorm grenade launcher, Las-talon, Onslaught gatling cannon, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon . Two fragstorm grenade launchers: 2x Fragstorm grenade launcher . Two storm bolters: 2x Storm bolter Repulsor Ironhail heavy stubber, 2x Krakstorm grenade launcher, Las-talon, Onslaught gatling cannon, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon . Two fragstorm grenade launchers: 2x Fragstorm grenade launcher . Two storm bolters: 2x Storm bolter ++ Total: [89 PL, 1745pts] ++ So the basic principle is very obvious, I’m not gonna list how it works because I don’t want to insult your intelligence! In a perfect world it wants to all deploy in the Repulsors, drive up the board; and sit on the enemy... Blunt force trauma. However, I have split the intercessors into 5x5 squad, for a couple of reasons, first is to maximise powersword seargents. The more important reason is for deployment flexibility. Sometimes you may need to screen against deep strikers (usually not given the repulsor -2 to chargers), or you may need to leave a squad or two behind to sit on the backfield. This setup allows you that flexibility if needed. This list actually gets a lot better at 2k I feel, due to the added mobility 2x3 Inceptors would offer.... but this ain’t that list! Any thoughts on this interation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ornithologist Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 I would change 1 of the las talons on one of the repulsors to a Heavy Gatling cannon, depending on Meta. Though I have noticed that the Gatling does surprising damage to harder targets just by weight of dice. And then I would change all the storm bolters on all to Frag Launchers. My math has gotten me to get more dice on average with the frag launchers than not. otherwise, it looks like its worth trying if you have access to 3 Repulsors. Which I don't, though I might be able to borrow some at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Frag launcher is 3.5 shots on average at 18“ and stormbolter is 4 shots at 12“ plus has higher max range. So no, keep the Stormbolter imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonmole Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 With reference to taking a Gatling cannon, I agree with you it’s a good weapon, but in the context of an army where the repulsor is your only source of anti tank I think you take it where you can get it. I would agree with sfPanzer too (his thought processes matches mine) The frag launcher is statistically better only in range 13-18” (d6 shots vs 2). Outside of 18” (0 shots vs 2), inside 12” (d6 vs 4 - I’ll take the 4). Considering the storm bolter is also cheaper, which adds up, it’s definitely the better option. In other news. I actually played a game with a an Intercessor squad and Standard of Sacrifice yesterday. Totally different list, but they still really performed, very tough to shift. Reasonable output in both shooting and melee, and ultimately carried the day through thier ability to capture objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ornithologist Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Okay, so its slow at work and I'm procrastinating from doing real work. Time to do an in depth- nobody but me likely cares about deep dive into the difference between StormBolters and Frag Launchers. My data all comes from an excel file that I am not sure I can share, don't know if company network will let me. on Number of shots: if rapid fire every turn : Storm Bolter Wins 28 shots to an average of 24.5 over 7 turns. if you miss 1 round of rapid fire: Early game - advantage Frag Launchers : even shots on Turn 4 : Full Game Storm Bolter Wins with 26 shots to the Frag Launchers 24.5 over 7 Turns. if you miss 2 or more rounds of rapid fire: Frag Launchers get more on average. Conversely, if you miss one round of Frag Launcher shooting you are likely going to shot the amount of bullets equal to storm bolter missing 3 rounds of rapid fire. So, Stormbolters have price and consistenty on their side, ( Which is lets face it, enough to win right there, but I'm full on in the middle of sunk cost Fallacy/ avoiding work so I'm going on). Frag Launchers have a higher possible top end of shots and oddly less reliance of getting up in your opponents face. (because rolling 6 shots per turn for 7 turns might happen to someone somewhere?) On a related math note, the more Frag Launchers you have, the more likely they will follow the statistical curve of 3.5 shots a turn. so if you go that route, go all or none. I almost wonder if they need to be dropped from double the stormbolter price to 1.5 the price of a stormbolter. TLDR: I have literally nothing better to do at work, and I like the Frag Launchers even though they are more expensive for pretty much the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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