Sisters: Ideas, In Light of Plastic Sisters, 2019(ish)

[foxlight713]

Would like to see sisters get a "anti-tank" tank that uses one of the larger scale bolter or melta weapons mounted in a vindicator hull. Would be neat but won't happen is if SoB get Volkite weapons, fits within the theme but the tech is pretty much lost to the imperium.

[Grgobart]

I understand the lore reasons why those weapons are so favored. It's just that I am also a soldier, prior service. I have a hard time believing that a serious fighting force would leave serious holes in their armory and make themselves less able to deal with significant threats, relatively cheaply and easily at that, just because the solution doesn't make the enemy scream prettily enough.

Three points here:

 

A "Serious" fighting force isn't something I'd call religious fantatics, which the Sisters essentially are.

 

Concerning the supposed "holes" in the Sisters' armoury, you need to consider that while fighting alien forces or rogue imperial elements does occure, the more regular dudies of the Sisters of Battle pitch them against revolting citizens, corrupt officials inside and outside ecclesiarchy with their personal bodyguards, rooting out heretic cults and hunting down witches/psykers. That is their daily business and that's where they adjust their armoury (e.g.: Avignor and the inclusion of the Repressor).

 

A third thing to consider, is that the Sisters of Battle only exist as a sort of compromise after the whole Age of Apostasy. As such it stands to reason, that in context of the whole power balance whithin the Imperium and its branches, the Sisters are allowed to be equipped to perform their duties, but are deliberatly kept short on certain weaponry, that would enable them to commit all-out warfare like the Fraternis Templar did unter Vandire's rule.

[Jack Burton]

Oh would I love to see a Sisters biker squad, just for purely aesthetic reasons.  Girls on Bikes, there's just nothing better.

[Callan]

Every army has its strengths and weaknesses it's a key part of the flavour for the army, I think Sister's weakness is supposed to their fragility in close combat and Short to mid-range.

The holy trinity is a good concept that forces sisters players to not play like space marines  or imperial guard , That being said I would like to see more elite sisters models with a bit more durability , the Exorcist definitely needs a few more shots to bring up its reliability I'd like to see 4 d3 shots pick the highest 2 or perhaps just flat  3 d3  its unique factor is its high AP but low overall shot damage and middle strength its the only weapon attached to the platform .

If people were insistent on a new sister's anti-tank unit that's not part of the holy trinity, i could see missile launcher troops ... but it means that people arent taking the melta's for the role they EMPRAH intended

 

This argument would be a lot easier to swallow if flamers and meltas weren't the precise weapons other forces are skipping this edition. If GW manages to tweak the rules in such a way that their core weapons aren't lackluster and their special weapons are effective, I'll happily agree that they didn't need an expanded arsenal. If the Sisters end up a niche army that cant't deal with this type of list or that type of list, I'm going to sigh, lament the missed opportunity, and note to myself that the Sisters' longtime fans prefer that they're glorified Arbites.

[Beams]

 

Every army has its strengths and weaknesses it's a key part of the flavour for the army, I think Sister's weakness is supposed to their fragility in close combat and Short to mid-range.

The holy trinity is a good concept that forces sisters players to not play like space marines or imperial guard , That being said I would like to see more elite sisters models with a bit more durability , the Exorcist definitely needs a few more shots to bring up its reliability I'd like to see 4 d3 shots pick the highest 2 or perhaps just flat 3 d3 its unique factor is its high AP but low overall shot damage and middle strength its the only weapon attached to the platform .

If people were insistent on a new sister's anti-tank unit that's not part of the holy trinity, i could see missile launcher troops ... but it means that people arent taking the melta's for the role they EMPRAH intended

 

This argument would be a lot easier to swallow if flamers and meltas weren't the precise weapons other forces are skipping this edition. If GW manages to tweak the rules in such a way that their core weapons aren't lackluster and their special weapons are effective, I'll happily agree that they didn't need an expanded arsenal. If the Sisters end up a niche army that cant't deal with this type of list or that type of list, I'm going to sigh, lament the missed opportunity, and note to myself that the Sisters' longtime fans prefer that they're glorified Arbites.

If you play sisters, you'd not that they do wonders with Stormbolters, Flamers and meltas. The limitations of meltas (6" melta range) don't matter because sisters get into melta range turn one. We're the fastest imperial army, which makes Flamers and meltas work amazingly, and we can double tap, making our Flamers and meltas more efficient than anyone else's.

 

And honestly, plasma spam is bad enough as it is. Do we really need one squad of 5 shooting 20 times? That's going to be spammed.

[Skaorn]

This argument would be a lot easier to swallow if flamers and meltas weren't the precise weapons other forces are skipping this edition. If GW manages to tweak the rules in such a way that their core weapons aren't lackluster and their special weapons are effective, I'll happily agree that they didn't need an expanded arsenal. If the Sisters end up a niche army that cant't deal with this type of list or that type of list, I'm going to sigh, lament the missed opportunity, and note to myself that the Sisters' longtime fans prefer that they're glorified Arbites.

So SoB style should be dictated by what weapons work best in the system or that their weapons are made better than the versions that everyone else gets???

[Callan]

 

This argument would be a lot easier to swallow if flamers and meltas weren't the precise weapons other forces are skipping this edition. If GW manages to tweak the rules in such a way that their core weapons aren't lackluster and their special weapons are effective, I'll happily agree that they didn't need an expanded arsenal. If the Sisters end up a niche army that cant't deal with this type of list or that type of list, I'm going to sigh, lament the missed opportunity, and note to myself that the Sisters' longtime fans prefer that they're glorified Arbites.

So SoB style should be dictated by what weapons work best in the system or that their weapons are made better than the versions that everyone else gets???

I'd think it's great if the weapons the Sisters are limited to are not inferior choices. Preferably in ANY hands, but if we can't have that, at least in Sisters' hands. If the Sisters are nothing but a method of deploying a series of weapons that aren't great, they're going to be a disappointment. GW's gamble on releasing Sisters at this point will fail - admittedly due to their own rules decisions - and the Sisters will get no support for a long time. Again. I don't think anyone wants that. Their STYLE is great, but remember that the Sisters are supposed to be a faction in a competitive wargame, also.

 

Beams' argument that the shortcomings of these weapons is already addressed by the rest of the rules is interesting. If that ends up working out well, awesome.

[Skaorn]

You're forgetting that one of the major factors for making the SoB competitive in that war game is their AoF. This allows them to play within their limited doctrine and still win against more flexible armies. Like the Tau, they are supposed to leverage speed for close range shooting but trade in variety of weapons on Crisis Suits for special mechanics. For instance, a SoB squad might not need the option of a lascannon in their squad if they have a chance that the Emperor might allow them to single out a special character in the new AoF rules for shooting.

[dracpanzer]

 

 

This argument would be a lot easier to swallow if flamers and meltas weren't the precise weapons other forces are skipping this edition. If GW manages to tweak the rules in such a way that their core weapons aren't lackluster and their special weapons are effective, I'll happily agree that they didn't need an expanded arsenal. If the Sisters end up a niche army that cant't deal with this type of list or that type of list, I'm going to sigh, lament the missed opportunity, and note to myself that the Sisters' longtime fans prefer that they're glorified Arbites.

So SoB style should be dictated by what weapons work best in the system or that their weapons are made better than the versions that everyone else gets???

I'd think it's great if the weapons the Sisters are limited to are not inferior choices. Preferably in ANY hands, but if we can't have that, at least in Sisters' hands. If the Sisters are nothing but a method of deploying a series of weapons that aren't great, they're going to be a disappointment. GW's gamble on releasing Sisters at this point will fail - admittedly due to their own rules decisions - and the Sisters will get no support for a long time. Again. I don't think anyone wants that. Their STYLE is great, but remember that the Sisters are supposed to be a faction in a competitive wargame, also.

Beams' argument that the shortcomings of these weapons is already addressed by the rest of the rules is interesting. If that ends up working out well, awesome.

Have you played Sisters? SB and Melta Doms get a good deal of respect in the meta. They aren't inferior. Vanguard and AoF in numbers enough to give to IF/Seraphim coupled with Melta Doms can bust a lot of tanks turn One.

[Rizara]

Sisters don't need lascannons.   They do need some longer ranged weapons however, and it isn't difficult to expand on the holy trinity.   Plasma can technically count as flame weapons since its really just an ionized flamer firing fire that is as hot as the sun.   That being said, they should either expand on the plasma weaponry or get rid of it all together.   

 

For Flamers in general, you can give there vehicles access to stronger flamers like the ones on the Land Raider Reedmer.   

Meltas, now these can easily be expanded on vehicles as well into thermal cannons, course getting access to those 30 inch assault metlas that are on the new small knights would be handy as well.  Imagine a thermal tank, sporting a giant thermal cannon on top (36 inch range melta blast gun), and two of the twin assault meltas as sponsons.   Talk about one fragged tank in the distance.   

As for bolters, again, they can give them mega Bolters and you can get access to Autocannons since those are techinically like firing blessed shells.  Not to far of a stretch and heck gangers get access to that, so whats to say they haven't confiscated these weapons from heretics only to send them to a resantification chamber to be purified.    

 

Missles also could be included since the exoricist already has them, but you can count them in the holy trinity because they can be fired using melta warheads or incenerary warheads.   

 

It is easy to expand their arsenal by staying in the trinity.  I would like to see maybe a dedicated melee unit that isn't repentia.   Perhaps a paladin type of feel with a holy power maul (+2 str) and storm shield.   This unit could also double as keeping the heretics at bay and creating a shield wall in which protects the flamers of purification as they fight the heretics.   The unit would sort of count as heavy infantry but doesn't have to have bulky army persay.      As for the bikers, while I understand the reasoning for it, i still can't justify them having a dedicated scouting type of unit.   It would be nice to see, but I just can't see sisters really having them.   Also a dedicated sisters walker/large unit would be great, not like what we have currently where a heretic is piloting it, but a dedicated trained battle sister piloting it.    A flyer is also needed, but I am thinking more like a helicopter hover transport type not a warship.  Something that can drop in, land and support a unit of battle sisters as they purge the heresy around them.     Also a dedicated melee jump pack unit woudl be nice, not just pistol toting girls, something that might pack a little punch in melee.  

[Karack Blackstone]

To the continued discussion, I have a question.

 

How would you address this, and, over time, how might we address this, given the chance to brainstorm solutions?

 

Plasma is too good to dismiss out of hand; at that, the fact that Sisters can do well in skilled hands is great. The problem is, as I deem myself a lackluster player, the Sisters not having access to a thing in the current meta must be compensated for, and, it sounds like some of the Sisters' rules allow for that.

 

One of the glaring issues for Sisters is the lack of a capable flyer, or, anti-flyer option.

 

Missile Launchers with the Flakk option not just as a CP cost would cover that; again, I think we as a thread are in agreement that the proposed Melta and Flamer missile types perhaps as replacements for Frag and Krak might work well. As far as the Frag and Krak, I would expect Sisters to likely keep access to them, given the grenades match types.

 

As far as flyer, I have the start of an idea of where to at least propose an hypothetical one to start the mental design process.

I figure the base hull might be similar to the Valkyrie, just able to deal with PA models inside. Add some of the elements of the Corvus, especially the wings, maybe the two side pods with some beefy weapons, perhaps options among Vulcan Mega-Bolter, Avenger Bolt-Cannon, Melta Lance, a pair of the Redeemer's Flamer sponsons each, well...

 

As far as things go, here's a quick mental image to start:

 

- < = O = > -

 

- above are the Corvus wings

< and > are the Corvus troop transport pods, with said options of the above beastly Bolter, Flamer, Melta options as a pair on each side, if need be.

= are the engine pairs.

O is the beefed up Valkyrie hull, able to transport hopefully 12 PA models.

 

I'd give the thing at least 4 Valkyrie engines, in the back, one over and one under the repurposed Corvus transport bays turned into weapons bays, on each side.

 

Edit:

 

Wrong word.

 

I apparently did not word the first part of this post correctly, when I typed it in here.

 

I more mean than anything that, Plasma is great, and, if the Sisters have enough weapon options to go forward, by all means, the Plasma idea is out. If however, Sisters should expand their access to the Plasma arsenal, by all means, what ideas do each of you have, thus far?

 

As to the flyer, this thing sounds like fun. I would wonder about giving Sisters for lack of a better term, mini-TDA, however, there's both points values and fluff, as well as in-game rules to consider.

 

As it is, food for thought, or so I hope.

[Beams]

So, weirdly enough, Flamers and heavy flamers are really good against flyers. They ignore the -1 to hit and can leverage large amounts of wounds.

 

A fully loaded 5 flamer Repressor with two heavy Flamers usually deals enough damage to a flyer to make it worthless.

 

St. Celestine and her Geminae can Assualt them, and the seraphim (24" move) can easily catch them and get into melta range with them.

 

I haven't had much trouble with flyers. The only lists I struggle against are Guilliman gunlines and psychic spam. If they go first, they pop all of my tanks before I can do anything with them. And for psychics, I have now added some SoS to help.

 

But flyers, hordes, elites? I can handle.

[Karack Blackstone]

Thank you, Beams.

 

Fascinating, to say the least.

 

Is that a result of 8th Edition, then? If so, is a flyer still worth consideration? If not, then, the flyer I mentioned while fun, might be way too much, at least in points value alone. Still, I think something with that much firepower, transport capacity, and would finally see I think that last army without a flyer get one.

 

Hm.

[ERJAK]

Every army has its strengths and weaknesses it's a key part of the flavour for the army, I think Sister's weakness is supposed to their fragility in close combat and Short to mid-range.

 

The holy trinity is a good concept that forces sisters players to not play like space marines or imperial guard , That being said I would like to see more elite sisters models with a bit more durability , the Exorcist definitely needs a few more shots to bring up its reliability I'd like to see 4 d3 shots pick the highest 2 or perhaps just flat 3 d3 its unique factor is its high AP but low overall shot damage and middle strength its the only weapon attached to the platform .

 

If people were insistent on a new sister's anti-tank unit that's not part of the holy trinity, i could see missile launcher troops ... but it means that people arent taking the melta's for the role they EMPRAH intended

This is why I like the Salvo launcher so much. It's essentially a melta missle and having reroll wounds against vehicles instead of 2d6 take the highest at half range makes it much more useful and versatile than the multi-melta, a weapon that constantly deals with usability issues. Having your 'mid-long range' anti-tank work best at sub 12" is a hard act to balance. At the range the multi-melta is most effective a melta is usually a superior option point for point.

[ERJAK]

Thank you, Beams.

 

Fascinating, to say the least.

 

Is that a result of 8th Edition, then? If so, is a flyer still worth consideration? If not, then, the flyer I mentioned while fun, might be way too much, at least in points value alone. Still, I think something with that much firepower, transport capacity, and would finally see I think that last army without a flyer get one.

 

Hm.

A flyer actually helps bandaid the OTHER problems SoB lists struggle with: The armies relatively high rate of attrition and incredibly short range.

 

Flyers being at -1 to hit and being unchargeable without fly makes them inherently beefier than other vehicles, and the high speed lets them get to places that might be out of reach for other SoB units.

 

I think a T7 14 wound 'flying cathedral' type flyer would be great. Give it moderate firepower ( in the ballpark of the space wolf flyers). Add on something for extra defense (repairs d3 wounds?) and you'd have a versatile tool with strong staying power that isn't really 'spamable'.

[Red_Shift]

I'd like an elite marine hunter squad with access to power weapons and something unique maybe whose role is simply to take on and eliminate traitor marines and renegades. Personally I'd dual kit it with repentia and let them keep their power armour. I understand the religious fanatic thing but I still can't get my head around why you would waste the resource of a sister with decades of experience by letting them get gutted by autorifle fire in the first 30 seconds of a fight. Model wise I'm talking facial scars, bionic eyes and a real veteran look.

[Servant of Dante]

Personally I don’t want to see any more plasma or any weapons at all that aren’t firmly in the holy trinity. I think it’s a fun piece of fluff and I’m rather attached to it so I don’t want to see it change :P

 

Personally I’ve never been one to really want a bunch of new units for Sisters. Maybe an alternate troops choice, but a buff/retooling Of the BSS would be infinitely better.

 

That being said I am still partial to the idea of Sisters on power-barded horses . . .

[Servant of Dante]

I'd like an elite marine hunter squad with access to power weapons and something unique maybe whose role is simply to take on and eliminate traitor marines and renegades. Personally I'd dual kit it with repentia and let them keep their power armour. I understand the religious fanatic thing but I still can't get my head around why you would waste the resource of a sister with decades of experience by letting them get gutted by autorifle fire in the first 30 seconds of a fight. Model wise I'm talking facial scars, bionic eyes and a real veteran look.

Dedicated marine hunters sounds cool, ala Sister Sin from RT

 

What you’re missing is Sisters Repentia aren’t Sisters, they’ve been cast out to seek repentance in death, so of course they ritually she’d their armour. The Imperium is quintessentially wasteful by our standards, but to the Sisters this is simply what is right and proper, not waste. A Sister Repentia is in some senses a tool that has broken and cannot be used, but they can seek the Emperor’s mercy and maybe kill a few heretics along the way.

[Eddie Orlock]

... I think a T7 14 wound 'flying cathedral' type flyer would be great. ...

So, in the interim, you're looking to do a pilot swap kitbash of the Dark Talon and maybe re-jig some of the iconographic insets a bit? Built that kit with the Avenger from the kits nephilim build in the ventral mount rather than the dark-voodoo gun shown.

 

If you build this, please post some pictures so we can see how it turned out.

[ERJAK]

 

... I think a T7 14 wound 'flying cathedral' type flyer would be great. ...

So, in the interim, you're looking to do a pilot swap kitbash of the Dark Talon and maybe re-jig some of the iconographic insets a bit? Built that kit with the Avenger from the kits nephilim build in the ventral mount rather than the dark-voodoo gun shown.

 

If you build this, please post some pictures so we can see how it turned out.

Firstly, I don't kitbash unless I absolutely have to, lol. It takes me too long to get models on the table as is.

 

Second, I'm well aware of the dark talon and what it does, but there are 2 fundamental differences between the dark talon and what I propose and that is that it 1. Is exceptionally spamable, in fact 2 is the minimum I would take. And 2. It's actually relatively fragile without a darkshroud for backup.

 

I'm looking for more of a floating tank type thing.

[Eddie Orlock]

Okay, it wasn't about cloning the dark talon's function in the game so much as it was about finding a kitbash option that would at least look like what you were trying to describe. Would such a kitbash look like what you were imagining was the question. I guess the answer is no.

 

How about starting from the hull of a Corvus Blackstar? Is that the right volume for your concept?

[Plasmablasts]

It was interesting to see “Heavy Infantry” listed as one of the current holes in the Sisters list. From a non-transhuman (cis-human?) perspective, a 3+ save and a basic S4 gun is heavy infantry. The current Sisters list makes sense to me in that it’s focused on focused on delivering highly trained soldiers with potent short-range firepower to the point they’re needed, hence the mechanisation and heavy personal armour. Their tanks are designed to support that role. Other military functions, like long-range artillery, heavy tanks and reconnaissance are covered by the Guard. In fact, I think it’s the fact that Sisters provide a military specialisation not really covered by the Astra Militarum which encourages the Imperium to overlook the distinctly rules-lawyerly evasion of the Decree Passive. The Adeptus Astartes chapters are supposed to be autonomous military formations, hence their greater range of materiel and specialisms.

 

Therefore, I think any new units should be designed to fit in with this focus on heavy, close-range, often mechanised Infantry. So, tanks which can keep up with the advance and maybe provide transport. Melee units to countercharge threats to the main battle line. Basically, anything new needs to be there to make the Battle Sisters Squads look good and do their job.

[Mard]

It was interesting to see “Heavy Infantry” listed as one of the current holes in the Sisters list. From a non-transhuman (cis-human?) perspective, a 3+ save and a basic S4 gun is heavy infantry. The current Sisters list makes sense to me in that it’s focused on focused on delivering highly trained soldiers with potent short-range firepower to the point they’re needed, hence the mechanisation and heavy personal armour. Their tanks are designed to support that role. Other military functions, like long-range artillery, heavy tanks and reconnaissance are covered by the Guard. In fact, I think it’s the fact that Sisters provide a military specialisation not really covered by the Astra Militarum which encourages the Imperium to overlook the distinctly rules-lawyerly evasion of the Decree Passive. The Adeptus Astartes chapters are supposed to be autonomous military formations, hence their greater range of materiel and specialisms.

 

Therefore, I think any new units should be designed to fit in with this focus on heavy, close-range, often mechanised Infantry. So, tanks which can keep up with the advance and maybe provide transport. Melee units to countercharge threats to the main battle line. Basically, anything new needs to be there to make the Battle Sisters Squads look good and do their job.

so more cavalry units!

[ERJAK]

 

 

This argument would be a lot easier to swallow if flamers and meltas weren't the precise weapons other forces are skipping this edition. If GW manages to tweak the rules in such a way that their core weapons aren't lackluster and their special weapons are effective, I'll happily agree that they didn't need an expanded arsenal. If the Sisters end up a niche army that cant't deal with this type of list or that type of list, I'm going to sigh, lament the missed opportunity, and note to myself that the Sisters' longtime fans prefer that they're glorified Arbites.

So SoB style should be dictated by what weapons work best in the system or that their weapons are made better than the versions that everyone else gets???

I'd think it's great if the weapons the Sisters are limited to are not inferior choices. Preferably in ANY hands, but if we can't have that, at least in Sisters' hands. If the Sisters are nothing but a method of deploying a series of weapons that aren't great, they're going to be a disappointment. GW's gamble on releasing Sisters at this point will fail - admittedly due to their own rules decisions - and the Sisters will get no support for a long time. Again. I don't think anyone wants that. Their STYLE is great, but remember that the Sisters are supposed to be a faction in a competitive wargame, also.

 

Beams' argument that the shortcomings of these weapons is already addressed by the rest of the rules is interesting. If that ends up working out well, awesome.

Firstly, rules aren't the only thing that sell models.It helps, but it's not the be all end all. Secondly SoB rules are fine RIGHT NOW. Sisters are by far the strongest index army and are able to compete against codex armies just fine for the most part.

 

Secondly, plasma, grav, etc that space marines have are highly overated compared to melta guns, especially with SoB's delivery systems. And we don't use flamers this edition, we use Storm Bolters and Heavy bolters which are closet OP at the moment and give us hilariously superior horde clearing ability.

 

The only weapon that is legitimately superior to what the SoB can bring is the lascannon and if SoB get lascannons you can round up all the SM armies and burn them because there'd be no point in them existing after that.

 

Think about it, an SoB is 9ppm. That means a 5 girl squad saves enough points over an SM squad to be able to buy a lascannon for essentially 5pts, with no loss to efficiency. None of the stats space marines have over SoB matter. WS is pointless on a shooting unit, same with strength and attacks. T3 vs T4 has never been a smaller difference than it is now and is mitigate by SoF, and AoFs are so superior rerolling battleshock it's comical to compare them. A 5 girl lascannon dev squad would be meta shiftingly powerful.

 

Sisters don't need other armies weapons to compete, other armies need to keep their weapons AWAY from Sisters to stay relevant.

[ERJAK]

It was interesting to see “Heavy Infantry” listed as one of the current holes in the Sisters list. From a non-transhuman (cis-human?) perspective, a 3+ save and a basic S4 gun is heavy infantry. The current Sisters list makes sense to me in that it’s focused on focused on delivering highly trained soldiers with potent short-range firepower to the point they’re needed, hence the mechanisation and heavy personal armour. Their tanks are designed to support that role. Other military functions, like long-range artillery, heavy tanks and reconnaissance are covered by the Guard. In fact, I think it’s the fact that Sisters provide a military specialisation not really covered by the Astra Militarum which encourages the Imperium to overlook the distinctly rules-lawyerly evasion of the Decree Passive. The Adeptus Astartes chapters are supposed to be autonomous military formations, hence their greater range of materiel and specialisms.

 

Therefore, I think any new units should be designed to fit in with this focus on heavy, close-range, often mechanised Infantry. So, tanks which can keep up with the advance and maybe provide transport. Melee units to countercharge threats to the main battle line. Basically, anything new needs to be there to make the Battle Sisters Squads look good and do their job.

I agree on all points except the heavy infantry thing, but I'll circle back to that.

 

I love that Sisters play like a shotgun and I love the dance of being in sub 12" but still avoiding combat and I don't want to change that core, all I want to do is give dominions some breathing room. SoB have a serious lack of 18-24" fire support considering how poor multi-meltas are. Something small to cover the dominions advance would be great.

 

As for heavy infantry, yeah, fluff-wise SoB are heavy infantry but tabletop-wise they're medium at best.