AM and allies

[Bmseifer]

Greetings!

 

I'm coming back to 8th after a longer break. I'm aiming at getting a 2000pts army fully painted. I want it to be roughly 1500pts of AM with a 500pt elite allied force.

 

My AM collection consists of 40 dkok infantry and 9 hvy weapon teams (run as regular guards, I just love the aesthetics of the models) and a bunch of different tanks.

 

So my question to you are what allies should I bring? I want it to be both fluffy and competitive. Custodes? Grey knights? Assassins? Knights? What complements the AM strengths and weaknesses?

[WarriorFish]

Welcome back :D Much has changed, but Guard are doing quite well. Such that I don't think allies are necessary gameplay wise (lore is another matter, naturally). Assassins aren't that much to write home about, and Grey Knights as elite Marines suffer from the killy nature of 8th. Custodes would be very touch and dangerous though, so would be a nice anvil (and hammer) for Guard.

 

I like my Knight, but Baneblades fulfil a similar role and generally can do a lot within a Guard army so you might want to consider a Baneblade variant if you're after a SH addition. 8th is a numbers game to a degree, so play that with plenty of units and guns and you won't go too far wrong :tu:

[Boomslang]

I've got to say the idea of a superheavy or a knight would fit in nicely thematically. Maybe wait until the Knight codex is out and see if anything takes your fancy?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have 3 knights that I regularly run as allies. They are thematic and fun and bring some heavy melee to the table. I also like to use Space Wolves to add some more melee, and especially by drop podding some blood claws out front to chainsword things to death.

 

What you want to bring is up to you, but ally advice still applies. Allies need to bring something to the table that your army doesn't do well.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Daemons.

[lash144]

Consider some Mechanicus elements. Guard brings cheap bodies and indirect fire, while Mechanicus has excellent shooting with some scary guns.

[Boomslang]

Daemons.

Burn the heretic!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Consider some Mechanicus elements. Guard brings cheap bodies and indirect fire, while Mechanicus has excellent shooting with some scary guns.

Skitarii Rangers are really the only unit that brings better shooting. Vanguards are outshined by scions (who share BS and Sv, but can deep strike). Kataphrons of both kinds, are ok, but we have vehicles that shoot the same (better range though) and put out more damage per turn. 

 

I'm not saying not to, I'm just pointing out that Allies are best when they compliment your main army. Like I mentioned Space Wolves for CC. Arguably, since Ogryns and Bullgryns got a buff, Guard doesn't need any help with CC, but I don't have Ogryns or bullgryns, and my CC Wolf Guard Terminators can deep strike, and I can Drop Pod my Bloodclaws. 

 

The big problem with Allies is that they tend to evolve into their own army. I started collecting Militarum Tempesus as allies for my Wolves. 3 years later, I have a fully fledged Guard Army, and I'm looking at downsizing my wolves. 

[DevilishImp]

I think that the mechanicus onager dunecrawlers offer some long range anti tank that the guard lack since the vanquisher tends to be rather lackluster.

 

You can use Las cannons of course but I do like the idea of some armored long range anti tank.

[NatBrannigan]

Primaris Marines are some lovely models and they really stand out from your Guard now they're the size Marines are supposed to be. Not really sure they'll make your army better though!

 

Wait a year and go for Sisters? Really you can take anything, all the Imperium armies are so fleshed out they can do anything reasonabl well. The Deathwatch codex might be fun?

[lash144]

 

 

Consider some Mechanicus elements. Guard brings cheap bodies and indirect fire, while Mechanicus has excellent shooting with some scary guns.

Skitarii Rangers are really the only unit that brings better shooting. Vanguards are outshined by scions (who share BS and Sv, but can deep strike). Kataphrons of both kinds, are ok, but we have vehicles that shoot the same (better range though) and put out more damage per turn.

 

Well that's simply not true. Does Guard have such reliable long range AT like a Neutron Onager? Does Guard have good AA? And does Guard have something like Dragoons, which just can murder everything?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

 

Consider some Mechanicus elements. Guard brings cheap bodies and indirect fire, while Mechanicus has excellent shooting with some scary guns.

Skitarii Rangers are really the only unit that brings better shooting. Vanguards are outshined by scions (who share BS and Sv, but can deep strike). Kataphrons of both kinds, are ok, but we have vehicles that shoot the same (better range though) and put out more damage per turn.

 

Well that's simply not true. Does Guard have such reliable long range AT like a Neutron Onager? Does Guard have good AA? And does Guard have something like Dragoons, which just can murder everything?

I will admit that the neutron Onager is an appealing option, but I'd contend that a direct firing basilisk or a Standard LRBT can do that job just as well with the extra 3 possible shots making up for the loss in strength, not to mention that a standard Russ doesn't need to move much, and so, will shoot twice. I would argue that the Hydra is good AA, since it has a wider threat range and pumps out more AC shots a turn than the Icarus Onager, though, the BS4+ for the Hydra does negate this a bit. The Icarus Onager is also more costly, at 130 pts to the Hydra's 108. Dragoons? We have Bullgryns. 

 

The point I'm making is that the Skitarii rangers are the only AdMech unit that just outshines anything the guard offers in troops. I will freely admit that AdMech has some powerful units, and some are probably better than the guard offerings. There's a point at which you have to ask, is this a guard army with AdMech allies, or an AdMech army with Guard allies?

 

Like I said, I'm not discouraging anyone from anything, I've been considering adding some AdMech allies(I want the ForgeBane box) myself. I just think that it's important to consider what your army has and what allies will bring. Everything you mentioned is only marginally better, so why take that over the native IG option?

 

For Instance, I'm wanting to get rid of my Space Wolves rhino chassis tanks. I play Guard, so I have good tanks. Guard Tanks are just so much better than the Rhino chassis. So, that makes for good Allies. I can take 10 bloodclaws for 30pts more than 30 conscripts, and those Bloodclaws will outperform those conscripts in CC (which, let's be honest, is where you want those conscripts), which makes them good allies.

 

Pick your allies carefully, and make sure what you're taking is more than marginally better than a native option. If you find that you're not using Guard stuff where you could be, you need to re-evaluate your army.

[Feral_80]

Onagers are nice, but certainly far from appealing to an AM army.
Without Cawl's reroll, they are far from reliable. Under normal circumstances, D3 anti-tank shot will hardly kill any vehicle, even with the apprently good stats of the neutron laser. Pass, they are only good for AdMech.

Generally speaking, AM needs little to zero allies and certainly not AdMech. You just add what you like mainly for fluffy reasons or game style preferences.

For example, I often play with a 500-pt detachment of allied Imperial Fists. Absolutely unneeded, and probably those points would be better spent in more AM. But I have the models, I like them, and that's it. No other reason really.

[Withershadow]

There are no less than 5 people starting Dark Eldar, and there are 3 Eldar players around here, one of them completely dedicated to Saim Hann.

 

So my Hydras have a lot of perfect targets.

[Brother Talarian]

I would recommend Custodes. You can go 5 bikes, or 5 termies, for about 450 pts but -1CP, or you can try three captains on bikes for +1CP.

 

Depends on what your army lacks.

Termies are essentially melee LRBT with a 2+ 4++, and bikes are anti horde and are no slouches in CC.

 

Also, they can’t be ignored. So that leaves the rest of your army free to shoot at will.

[Bmseifer]

Thanks for the suggestions all.

 

I have quite a lot of different models to try out already and see what looks and feels best to bring along my guards( I buy alot of different models just for painting):

 

Knights - I have 4 regular knights and one atropos

Custodes - 5 regular guards and 3 bikes

Assassins - one of each

Grey Knigths - 5 Paladins, 1 NDK and Voldus

Misc - Celestine, Cawl, Greyfax, Cortez, regular Inquisitors

 

Right now on the painting table is the custodes bikes so I think I'm going to try them next for some fast cc threats to advance along my hellhounds presenting a double threat to deal with, hopefully leaving my long range units free to shoot another round

[novembermike]

Onagers are nice, but certainly far from appealing to an AM army.

Without Cawl's reroll, they are far from reliable. Under normal circumstances, D3 anti-tank shot will hardly kill any vehicle, even with the apprently good stats of the neutron laser. Pass, they are only good for AdMech.

 

Generally speaking, AM needs little to zero allies and certainly not AdMech. You just add what you like mainly for fluffy reasons or game style preferences.

 

For example, I often play with a 500-pt detachment of allied Imperial Fists. Absolutely unneeded, and probably those points would be better spent in more AM. But I have the models, I like them, and that's it. No other reason really.

 

I can agree with this. AM aren't always the most efficient way to do something but they can usually get pretty close (Basilisks instead of an Onager, use crusaders/priests/ogryn/bullgryns for combat, etc). IMO the only really competitive reason to take allies as AM is to get access to broken stuff like 3x shield captains.

[Bmseifer]

So I played a 1500p game bringing a supreme command detachment with 3 shield captains.

 

Feelings:

*It filled a role where AM lacks, fast hard hitting cc unit that also has really good shooting with their hurricane bolters

*It felt very unfluffy and power gamey

*I will no be bringing them again to a friendly non-competative game

 

So my AM lists lack good cc. And I also felt good anti-tank was something I didn't have with only d3 damage weaponry. So right now I'm thinking of bringing an AdMech detachment. If I buy 2 start collecting boxes I can run a decent admech battalion I think. Use the dominus as regular enginseers, 3 squads of rangers with some arquebus sprinkled and 2 neutron onagers for anti-tank. All 3 of these unit types brings something to my army. The enginseer repair onagers or the many tanks I have, the ranger give me more bodies to deny deep strikes and the onagers go are mobile, pretty durable tank hunters.

[lash144]

You could also add a unit of 4 Dragoons. They are pretty mean in CC, especially against hard targets, cause they got s8.

[Bmseifer]

You could also add a unit of 4 Dragoons. They are pretty mean in CC, especially against hard targets, cause they got s8.

 

Yeah dragoons looks like something I could add later on. Ordered 2 start collecting boxes now and want to see how they look next to my guards when painted up first before I get anything else. And then if I add more to it will be probably be a case of 'is this a small force that I run alongside my guards or is it an army of its own?' :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So I played a 1500p game bringing a supreme command detachment with 3 shield captains.

 

Feelings:

*It filled a role where AM lacks, fast hard hitting cc unit that also has really good shooting with their hurricane bolters

*It felt very unfluffy and power gamey

*I will no be bringing them again to a friendly non-competative game

 

So my AM lists lack good cc. And I also felt good anti-tank was something I didn't have with only d3 damage weaponry. So right now I'm thinking of bringing an AdMech detachment. If I buy 2 start collecting boxes I can run a decent admech battalion I think. Use the dominus as regular enginseers, 3 squads of rangers with some arquebus sprinkled and 2 neutron onagers for anti-tank. All 3 of these unit types brings something to my army. The enginseer repair onagers or the many tanks I have, the ranger give me more bodies to deny deep strikes and the onagers go are mobile, pretty durable tank hunters.

Regarding Custodes:

My idea was to buy a guard squad box, from which I would be able to make a Shield Captain, A Vexillus Praetor, and 3 Guards. My detachment would be those 3 things plus 2 contemptors. The Vexillus Praetor would have the Vexllus Defensor (for a sweet 9" 5++ for all imperium infantry). The Shield captain would buff the Custodes, and the guards would be there to charge anything that got too close. You might try bringing non HQ Custodes and see how that is. 

 

What are you considering good anti-tank? Because a Leman Russ Battle Tank can put out 4 times the number of shots as an Onager, and the LRBT will come out cheaper since you won't have additional units as a tax. My question is, if you can afford to buy ally army models, why aren't you buying more guard models? I can understand if you like the models, or if you're starting a <FACTION> army, but if it's just about increasing the efficacy of your IG, the answer is simple: Get more IG.

 

Guard has plenty of good anti-tank, and it has good CC. For CC I have 2 squads of Ogryns and 2 squads of conscripts. For anti-tank, I have 2 Leman Russ Conquerors, 2 Leman Russ Demoshers, and Pask in a Battle Tank. 

 

Just because you can ally everything, doesn't mean you should. That's why our conscripts are trash now. SM players kept using Robby G conscript spam and now our super cheap 50 man blob that just got orders is gone, our Commissars got a nerf for the same reason. This is why I stick to fluffy allies, like Imperial Knights (yes they're powerful, but hardly OP), Inquisition, and other IG Regiments.

[Bmseifer]

 

So I played a 1500p game bringing a supreme command detachment with 3 shield captains.

 

Feelings:

*It filled a role where AM lacks, fast hard hitting cc unit that also has really good shooting with their hurricane bolters

*It felt very unfluffy and power gamey

*I will no be bringing them again to a friendly non-competative game

 

So my AM lists lack good cc. And I also felt good anti-tank was something I didn't have with only d3 damage weaponry. So right now I'm thinking of bringing an AdMech detachment. If I buy 2 start collecting boxes I can run a decent admech battalion I think. Use the dominus as regular enginseers, 3 squads of rangers with some arquebus sprinkled and 2 neutron onagers for anti-tank. All 3 of these unit types brings something to my army. The enginseer repair onagers or the many tanks I have, the ranger give me more bodies to deny deep strikes and the onagers go are mobile, pretty durable tank hunters.

Regarding Custodes:

My idea was to buy a guard squad box, from which I would be able to make a Shield Captain, A Vexillus Praetor, and 3 Guards. My detachment would be those 3 things plus 2 contemptors. The Vexillus Praetor would have the Vexllus Defensor (for a sweet 9" 5++ for all imperium infantry). The Shield captain would buff the Custodes, and the guards would be there to charge anything that got too close. You might try bringing non HQ Custodes and see how that is. 

 

What are you considering good anti-tank? Because a Leman Russ Battle Tank can put out 4 times the number of shots as an Onager, and the LRBT will come out cheaper since you won't have additional units as a tax. My question is, if you can afford to buy ally army models, why aren't you buying more guard models? I can understand if you like the models, or if you're starting a <FACTION> army, but if it's just about increasing the efficacy of your IG, the answer is simple: Get more IG.

 

Guard has plenty of good anti-tank, and it has good CC. For CC I have 2 squads of Ogryns and 2 squads of conscripts. For anti-tank, I have 2 Leman Russ Conquerors, 2 Leman Russ Demoshers, and Pask in a Battle Tank. 

 

Just because you can ally everything, doesn't mean you should. That's why our conscripts are trash now. SM players kept using Robby G conscript spam and now our super cheap 50 man blob that just got orders is gone, our Commissars got a nerf for the same reason. This is why I stick to fluffy allies, like Imperial Knights (yes they're powerful, but hardly OP), Inquisition, and other IG Regiments.

 

 

I see your points but if you read my initial post the plan for this army IS to bring an allied detachment. Reasons for that is I think it's cool and thematic. It can complement weaknesses and it gives me more variation when building and painting.

 

Sure, efficiancy wise the LR's can put out some damage, but when you factor in they're slow moving (5" if want to double-tap) the demolisher and the conqueror(if you want the coax bonus) are pretty short ranged. And in my meta, a bunch of wave serpents makes the d3 damage of the battle cannon not so good

[lash144]

But a LRBT neither hits on 3s, has S10, AP -4 and does 3-6 dmg.

And its more vulnerable to the enemy anti tank, because of the lack of in invuln.

 

It is much more flexible though.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

 

So I played a 1500p game bringing a supreme command detachment with 3 shield captains.

 

Feelings:

*It filled a role where AM lacks, fast hard hitting cc unit that also has really good shooting with their hurricane bolters

*It felt very unfluffy and power gamey

*I will no be bringing them again to a friendly non-competative game

 

So my AM lists lack good cc. And I also felt good anti-tank was something I didn't have with only d3 damage weaponry. So right now I'm thinking of bringing an AdMech detachment. If I buy 2 start collecting boxes I can run a decent admech battalion I think. Use the dominus as regular enginseers, 3 squads of rangers with some arquebus sprinkled and 2 neutron onagers for anti-tank. All 3 of these unit types brings something to my army. The enginseer repair onagers or the many tanks I have, the ranger give me more bodies to deny deep strikes and the onagers go are mobile, pretty durable tank hunters.

Regarding Custodes:

My idea was to buy a guard squad box, from which I would be able to make a Shield Captain, A Vexillus Praetor, and 3 Guards. My detachment would be those 3 things plus 2 contemptors. The Vexillus Praetor would have the Vexllus Defensor (for a sweet 9" 5++ for all imperium infantry). The Shield captain would buff the Custodes, and the guards would be there to charge anything that got too close. You might try bringing non HQ Custodes and see how that is. 

 

What are you considering good anti-tank? Because a Leman Russ Battle Tank can put out 4 times the number of shots as an Onager, and the LRBT will come out cheaper since you won't have additional units as a tax. My question is, if you can afford to buy ally army models, why aren't you buying more guard models? I can understand if you like the models, or if you're starting a <FACTION> army, but if it's just about increasing the efficacy of your IG, the answer is simple: Get more IG.

 

Guard has plenty of good anti-tank, and it has good CC. For CC I have 2 squads of Ogryns and 2 squads of conscripts. For anti-tank, I have 2 Leman Russ Conquerors, 2 Leman Russ Demoshers, and Pask in a Battle Tank. 

 

Just because you can ally everything, doesn't mean you should. That's why our conscripts are trash now. SM players kept using Robby G conscript spam and now our super cheap 50 man blob that just got orders is gone, our Commissars got a nerf for the same reason. This is why I stick to fluffy allies, like Imperial Knights (yes they're powerful, but hardly OP), Inquisition, and other IG Regiments.

 

 

I see your points but if you read my initial post the plan for this army IS to bring an allied detachment. Reasons for that is I think it's cool and thematic. It can complement weaknesses and it gives me more variation when building and painting.

 

Sure, efficiancy wise the LR's can put out some damage, but when you factor in they're slow moving (5" if want to double-tap) the demolisher and the conqueror(if you want the coax bonus) are pretty short ranged. And in my meta, a bunch of wave serpents makes the d3 damage of the battle cannon not so good

 

I'm not criticizing, and I'm certainly not trying to tell you how to play your army. I'm just asking the questions, because they need to get asked. I still say that your allies need to compliment your guard. Mechanicus is a very fluffy ally, and pretty powerful on the table too, so they're not bad. I'd be wary, mechanicus is very shooty, and so is guard, be careful that you aren't overlapping your guardsmen with AdMech units (if your're using Guardsmen, don't use rangers, use vanguard or kataphrons). Make sure that the AdMech Shooting is different enough.