Leif Bearclaw Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Restorer contradicts that quite bluntly, though that's a nice theory. The Astartes defenders are vastly outnumbered by mortal soldiers. But they already would be, even with the generally agreed 'too low' figure of 1.5 million guardsmen. If we take Nuttyer's Astartes estimate of 200k-odd as acceptable (seems reasonable to me, 3 Legions, none of which were particularly large as far as I'm aware, and have been put through the wringer by 7 years of war), then Astartes make up only around 11% of the Imperial forces. That's a big enough difference imo to qualify for 'vastly outnumbered'. Hell even if the Fists have ballooned to pre-Heresy Ultra size, and there's 500,000 total Marines, that's still a 3:1 outnumbering, which is pretty hefty. What's Restorer, btw? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5043437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuttyer1st Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Restorer contradicts that quite bluntly, though that's a nice theory. The Astartes defenders are vastly outnumbered by mortal soldiers. But they already would be, even with the generally agreed 'too low' figure of 1.5 million guardsmen. If we take Nuttyer's Astartes estimate of 200k-odd as acceptable (seems reasonable to me, 3 Legions, none of which were particularly large as far as I'm aware, and have been put through the wringer by 7 years of war), then Astartes make up only around 11% of the Imperial forces. That's a big enough difference imo to qualify for 'vastly outnumbered'. Hell even if the Fists have ballooned to pre-Heresy Ultra size, and there's 500,000 total Marines, that's still a 3:1 outnumbering, which is pretty hefty. What's Restorer, btw? Restorer is a short story that covers the White Scar Shibans recovery on Terra after the V legion arrives there https://www.blacklibrary.com/new-titles/the-horus-heresy/restorer-ebook.html Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5043440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 I'd say a couple of hundred thousand Astartes isn't vastly dwarfed by a million and a half mortals. Dwarfed, but not to the degree Wraight seems to be implying there. It mentions "millions of regiments" which, while almost certainly being hyperbolic, suggests truly maddening numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5043867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Regiments average 3000 guardsmen, so millions of regiments is already looking at a 3 billion minimum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5043986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Regiments average 3000 guardsmen, so millions of regiments is already looking at a 3 billion minimum. The Principia Bellicosa Model is 5400 per regiment led by a Tribue-Colonel. The Solar Cohort is 120,000 per cohort in 1,200 man Sub-Cohorts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5043988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I was thinking of a 40k era regiment. Yeah so 5400 per, times a million regiments is 5.4 billion and they said millions of regiments so could perhaps in the tens of billions easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Ibram Gaunt Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 change million and billion and move on... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 Is it likely that there would be Billions of Loyalist Skitarii/Combat Tech Priest/Automata in the Siege of Terra? How many Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Loyalist Blackshields on Terra? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Is it likely that there would be Billions of Loyalist Skitarii/Combat Tech Priest/Automata in the Siege of Terra? How many Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Loyalist Blackshields on Terra? Comparatively minute. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 This talk is making me excited about the walls of terra but I have to agree the numbers sound too small for mortal soldiers. The Astartes have to be pretty depleted at this point (we’re talking 30% or more for the traitor legions due to both Isstvaans, Calth, major fleet engagements, etc.) Even with heretical fast recruitment shenanigans, I can’t imagine any legion present at the siege to be above 200,000. I imagine there to be a large contingent of mortals on the Traitor side due to the Dark Compliance being swift and deadly. I doubt many regiments would have wanted to fight full legions in open combat and would have kowtowed without a single drop of blood being shed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinstryfe Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I think it's important to remember that the palace is huge, and that Terra has both much more habitable land and a much higher population density due to vertical habitation. I don't know if any sources have actually laid out how populated it is, but it has to be huge, and from what I understand the whole planet was under seige, not just the palace. For every battle we've heard about, there are probably hundreds more that will never be mentioned in the fluff. We never hear about assaults on water reclaimation plants, manufacturing complexes, food synthesizing manufactorums, etc, which would all have been likely targets if you're looking to weaken a population under seige. The number of mortal defenders, from both on and off world, has to easily reach into the billions for the entire planet. Now for just the Seige of the Palace, maybe that's where numbers are hugely less, but still likely much higher than they've said before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I recall that hive world populsations aren't strictly given because they have no clue how populous they are... I think there was a side note somewhere about an attempt at a census in a single hive on necromunda or some other hive world... and how generations past and the whole census beuro went nuts. So presumably earth had 100s of billions if not into the trillions of citizens prior to the horus heresy. A conscript force of 1% would be high by any modern standards (but maybe not by the crazy 30k/40k standard) and that would yield anywhere from 1 to 10 billion assuming earth is somewhere between 100 billion and 1 trillion people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 We should be wary of throwing around trillions. There might at best be single digits of trillions of humans in an entire galaxy. There are certainly not trillions of humans on a single planet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisimo Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I think it's important to remember that the palace is huge, and that Terra has both much more habitable land and a much higher population density due to vertical habitation. I don't know if any sources have actually laid out how populated it is, but it has to be huge, and from what I understand the whole planet was under seige, not just the palace. I always thought it was just the Palace; nothing else mattered (except to the Emperor's Children), and Horus was in a hurry. In the original story, the siege only lasts 55 days. I'm not sure that even counts as a 'siege'. Besieging the Palace probably means attacking the entire Tibetan Plateau, so there's room for millions, or tens of millions. Hundreds of millions is probably pushing it, but that's just a gut feeling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Surely 55 days counts as a siege, unless you mean that it's that many days of constant running battles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasmablasts Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Are we talking US or UK billions? One is a thousand million (1 x 10^9), the other a million million (1 x 10^12). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Are we talking US or UK billions? One is a thousand million (1 x 10^9), the other a million million (1 x 10^12). Britain adopted the US concept of Billion over 40 years ago. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 We should be wary of throwing around trillions. There might at best be single digits of trillions of humans in an entire galaxy. There are certainly not trillions of humans on a single planet. I agree there won't be a trillion people on Earth. But there will absolutely be more than single digits trillions in the Galaxy. If a planet has ten billion, you'd only need a hundred of those planets to hit a trillion. We are at 7.5 billion and we don't have hive cities. If we had skyscrapers covering every continent with vast underground complexes also, our 7.5 billion would make the world feel empty. Some hive worlds were said to have hundreds of billions, and there are untold thousands of these worlds. So we are way over the trillions mark for the Galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 We should be wary of throwing around trillions. There might at best be single digits of trillions of humans in an entire galaxy. There are certainly not trillions of humans on a single planet. I agree there won't be a trillion people on Earth. But there will absolutely be more than single digits trillions in the Galaxy. If a planet has ten billion, you'd only need a hundred of those planets to hit a trillion. We are at 7.5 billion and we don't have hive cities. If we had skyscrapers covering every continent with vast underground complexes also, our 7.5 billion would make the world feel empty. Some hive worlds were said to have hundreds of billions, and there are untold thousands of these worlds. So we are way over the trillions mark for the Galaxy. Oh, good catch, my math was wayyy off. I was thinking it would take a thousand Hive Worlds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 They are going to have to inflate the numbers of the imperial army drastically just to defend the palace.... being as it is basically the entire humilaya region. Also the US military alone has close to 2 million service members on active duty, and the country has close to 9 million veterans. So I’d say that by the time of the siege of terra BL is going to have to replace “1.5 million” with “1.5 billion”. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5044998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I don’t think we should say the entire palace/Himalayas would be covered in soldiers or in a high enough priority to warrant a garrison. Probably key chokepoints and redoubts farther in would be better served with a larger garrison. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5045206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted April 1, 2018 Author Share Posted April 1, 2018 I don’t think we should say the entire palace/Himalayas would be covered in soldiers or in a high enough priority to warrant a garrison. Probably key chokepoints and redoubts farther in would be better served with a larger garrison. Considering that Mars is under Traitor control, Alpha Legion have already attacked, Magnus interference has killed Millions alone AND the War Within the Webway... ...wouldn't surprised me if over a Trillion Guardsmen are on Terra As well as TEN TIMES that number of Zealots/PDF/Militia Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5045637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 I don’t think we should say the entire palace/Himalayas would be covered in soldiers or in a high enough priority to warrant a garrison. Probably key chokepoints and redoubts farther in would be better served with a larger garrison.Considering that Mars is under Traitor control, Alpha Legion have already attacked, Magnus interference has killed Millions alone AND the War Within the Webway... ...wouldn't surprised me if over a Trillion Guardsmen are on Terra As well as TEN TIMES that number of Zealots/PDF/Militia And Chuck Norris. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5045676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
coabeous Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 I understood there were 1.5M Guardsmen causalities that were identified, while the number of unidentified Guardsmen were unknown or estimated, from lost records. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5045771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 So my estimate puts that at 195-230,000 space marines on Terra What about the Traitor Legionaries? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345669-siege-of-terra-numbers-too-small/page/2/#findComment-5047444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.