need advice/suggestions on how to field an army

[Zuvassin]

So, in messing around with various paint schemes and such, I've been wanting to do an Iron Warriors army as I think their rules best fit my play-style, but I'm not a super big fan of the standard IW scheme.

 

As such, I came up with a red scheme that I really like, that retains the IW heraldry. Unfortunately, my understanding is that a variant scheme like this would be looked down upon, particularly at events like Adepticon. I've never been much of a tourney player, but I'd like to do narrative events and such down the road, and it sounds like my army wouldn't be well received if it's in "non-historical" colors.

 

As I've said, the IW rules seem the best fitting to my play-style, and I like the look of my test models. So I'm not really keen on just switching to the red armies like Word Bearers or Blood Angels, or running them as Blackshields. A friend did suggest theming them as a Blackshields force without the IW heraldry that use the IW rules, but that seems like it'd be confusing or misleading to opponents, and as a fairly casual gamer, I'd hate to have an army that comes off as unintentionally sketch.

 

I also really like the IW background and icons, which is why I wanted to use them in the force - it's just the relatively mono-metal look I was hoping to avoid (plus I really like the red scheme I've worked out).

 

Is there any other way around having to paint them in the bog-standard IW scheme? Or am I stuck with them as a 40k-only army? I have friends that play HH, and have done things like Adepticon, but this is my first attempt at an actual 30k army after years of being interested in it and collecting the books, so I'm new to the community and not sure if there's a Flames of War level of "historical accuracy" that is demanded for HH armies.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Fenbain]

While maintaining accuracy to the fluff, there's no way to do a variant scheme of that nature for Iron Warriors that I'm aware of. How important the fluff accuracy is varies a fair bit, from an important factor but not that big a deal, to the most important factor.

 

I'm at the latter end of that scale and think your best bet to keep people happy would be to make them a Lost Legion that use Iron Warriors' rules. Make up your own symbol, fluff etc., and as long as you don't abuse the IW rules (Ironfire primarily) I think people would be fine with it.

 

I think the fluffiest option would be to run them as Blackshields, but another option would be as Loyalist IW who have been long separate and thrown down their Legion colours in disgust at their treachery. It's a stretch but could be plausible.

[Zuvassin]

Mine were still going to be a part of the Legion, and still on the Traitor side of things. My thinking was that they were just a garrisoned force that slowly adopted a unique color scheme due to the influence of a warrior lodge (the only real 'fluff' difference between them and the rest of the Legion) - otherwise they're loyal sons of Perturabo.

 

To me, changing metal to red doesn't seem any different than how some Alpha Legion players use turquoise, others metallic turquoise, some a shade of green, others a shade of blue. So I was surprised that it's such a contentious issue in the community. I guess too I was thinking that things like the proto-Black Templars in the IF and some of the variant schemes and such meant that there was variety/flexibility in the vastness of the legions for chapters/companies/etc adopting variant schemes.

 

Ugh, so much metal.

[1ncarnadine]

There are loyalist splinters of the Iron Warriors that Perturabo basically just abandoned to the fringes of the galaxy, like Kyr Vhalen's force in Extermination. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for one such splinter to get so pissed at their Traitor brethren that they radically changed their colors to distance themselves. As long as your models still hold some visual cues and you have some cool background and explanations, I don't see why you couldn't do what you want.

 

The red could be anything from an homage to a system or sub-sector that they were sworn to defend, a symbol of their intent to spill the blood of their Traitor brothers, or derived from the personal heraldry of whatever Warsmith lead them. Anything like that could be cool.

 

And yeah, you may get a few inflexible thinkers that can't handle it. Can't please everyone. I think you'll find most players will be fine when you're actually talking about it to them face to face, though.

 

edit: I see you're aiming for a Traitor angle, though! D'oh. Hm. Let me think on that for a bit. I'm sure we can come up with something. 

 

My first thought is that the Steel Brethren end up being a sub-faction/warband of the Iron Warriors after their exile to the Eye, and use two inter-twined red stars as their heraldry. Maybe your red could be culturally related? I suppose it would also be possible for Perturabo to pull the same as with the Loyalists; essentially just abandoning a Warsmith who has fallen out of favor, along with his company. That Warsmith could still be fighting for the Traitor cause but with no reference to the rest of the Legion that's more or less abandoned them. Perhaps they turn to Chaos instead, finding answers and direction from a Word Bearer advisor or something?

[Brofist]

+1 for the Steel Brethren tie in.

 

I also have an unconventional IW paint scheme. Just go for it. In my experience, nobody will really care, provided it's plausible and executed well. Having them fully painted and to a high modeling standard will be more important.

[Kizzdougs]

Some people will love to see an alternative scheme, some won't, and others won't care either way. They most important thing is that you enjoy what you're doing and that you put in the effort to make it work and get everything painted :tu:

 

Personally I wouldn't paint an extreme alternative colour scheme because I usually like to paint my minis fairly close to the 'official' artwork/depiction and I feel that the colour schemes of the different Legions is an important part of their identity and character. The Iron Warriors are also probably one of the least likely Legions to have an alternative colour scheme. They're all about functionality and brutal efficiency. Heraldry and additional ornamentation isn't really their thing.

 

Having said all of that, if you showed up to a game with a well painted red Iron Warrior's army I wouldn't say anything negative about it and I'd be happy to play against you.

 

Mine were still going to be a part of the Legion, and still on the Traitor side of things. My thinking was that they were just a garrisoned force that slowly adopted a unique color scheme due to the influence of a warrior lodge (the only real 'fluff' difference between them and the rest of the Legion) - otherwise they're loyal sons of Perturabo.

 

To me, changing metal to red doesn't seem any different than how some Alpha Legion players use turquoise, others metallic turquoise, some a shade of green, others a shade of blue. So I was surprised that it's such a contentious issue in the community. I guess too I was thinking that things like the proto-Black Templars in the IF and some of the variant schemes and such meant that there was variety/flexibility in the vastness of the legions for chapters/companies/etc adopting variant schemes.

 

Ugh, so much metal.

Regarding the Warrior Lodges: I don't think that the Iron Warriors had the Word Bearer inspired Warrior Lodges that many other Legions adopted, because the IVth Legion already had their own internal Legion organisations the Dodekatheon, Apolakron, Kheledakos, Lyssatra, and the Tyranthikos. I suppose your forces could have been corrupted/influenced by an indigenous cult on the world that they were sent to garrison?

 

Regarding the different Alpha Legion schemes: Forgeworld lists several different schemes that have been used by different Alpha Legion forces at different times, including the iridescent blue/green Fw scheme, plain steel, bronze, black, indigo and a few others I can't remember. So it's true to the fluff for people to paint their Alpha Legion differently. They're not just taking artistic license, it's there in the fluff.

 

 

 

Good luck with your project :tu:

[Gorgoff]

While maintaining accuracy to the fluff, there's no way to do a variant scheme of that nature for Iron Warriors that I'm aware of. How important the fluff accuracy is varies a fair bit, from an important factor but not that big a deal, to the most important factor.

 

I'm at the latter end of that scale and think your best bet to keep people happy would be to make them a Lost Legion that use Iron Warriors' rules. Make up your own symbol, fluff etc., and as long as you don't abuse the IW rules (Ironfire primarily) I think people would be fine with it.

 

As a true Iron Warrior the concept of chainging our armour and daub them with colours is abhorrent to me. Decimation is the conclusion.

 

As a player who wants people to be happy I say: whatever rocks your world, buddy. :)

But be aware of the fact that you'll be the "What for an army is that?" dude, who has to explain your army every time.

[Zuvassin]

 

Regarding the Warrior Lodges: I don't think that the Iron Warriors had the Word Bearer inspired Warrior Lodges that many other Legions adopted, because the IVth Legion already had their own internal Legion organisations the Dodekatheon, Apolakron, Kheledakos, Lyssatra, and the Tyranthikos. I suppose your forces could have been corrupted/influenced by an indigenous cult on the world that they were sent to garrison?

 

Regarding the different Alpha Legion schemes: Forgeworld lists several different schemes that have been used by different Alpha Legion forces at different times, including the iridescent blue/green Fw scheme, plain steel, bronze, black, indigo and a few others I can't remember. So it's true to the fluff for people to paint their Alpha Legion differently. They're not just taking artistic license, it's there in the fluff.

 

Good luck with your project

 

With the warrior lodges, I was going off the black book, which IIRC indicates they weren't as popular or deep-seeded (but still present, from the sounds of it).

 

With the AL schemes, it seems like most of the legions have alt schemes in the black books, even if they're fairly muted compared to something like the Templars within the IF. With the actual AL armies in particular, I just assumed it was from the difficulty of trying to match turquoise / aquamarine, lol (esp in metallic form).

 

Regardless, it is what it is. I guess I was just more surprised than anything. Outside of schemes, the community has seemed like such a laid back one, both online and in real life from what I've gathered from friends. I get that there's a "historical" aspect to it, within the context of 40k, but given the vastness of the legions and the 'official' variants in schemes and icons depicted in the black books, it just didn't occur to me that there'd be this apparent (and very strongly felt) rejection of not sticking to the mainstream options.

[carlisimo]

Yeah, that's a tough one.  A lot of us do take the pseudohistorical aspect of it seriously, and it is certainly limiting.

 

A lot of alternative legion schemes are early-crusade variants that are more monochrome than the schemes we all know and... perhaps don't love.  When they left Terra, it seems they were all shades of gray, black, white, or beige.  Some picked up a splash of color, like in their pauldrons, and eventually painted all their armor in that color.   In some cases you start seeing further changes that will lead to successor chapter colors.  That's probably where you want to be.

 

I'd struggle to see a predominantly-red Iron Warriors army as what it was.  Doesn't mean you can't do it, but it'd be jarring.  Iron Warriors with red replacing yellow, or with red trim, or with some red armor panels or limbs would be easier to take in.  And it'd work well against a cool-tone (bluish) metal color.  But you can go with your original idea too - just be sure to have a story to go with it.  That's ultimately the most important thing.

[rendingon1+]

There is a tartaros terminator with red pauldron on Tallarn Executioner cover. BL artwork and only one pauldron but I think it looks quite good and realistic and serves well to break the steel/black IW scheme.

[Dantay VI]

The iron warriors in red could be those who prefer taking part in the bloodiest actions.

 

While expert siege masters the true thrill comes when they have broken down their foes walls and pouring through the breach to wreak havoc in brutal hand to hand combat.

 

Khorne is taking a grip of the battalion.

[Elzender]

Random idea: the IW company captured a vast shipment, or even a forge/industrial world that supplied armour for the Blood Angels, and they didn't bother changing the colour? It could justify at least the legionaries having some parts in red, as they change damaged parts from their original armour to the captured pieces.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Play what you like. Tournaments are often full of the cancer that migrated from 7th, so they're less interested in what your colour *yourdudes* are painted in.

 

Gotta question why you're playing 30k, because there are far better wargames out there, and part of the Legions identity is their colour scheme, and the concept is to enact and play in the Heresy Era game.

[Zuvassin]

To me, color schemes aren't an inherent part of a Legion/Chapter's "identity". Or at least not in the sense of being completely sacrosanct.

 

Plus, as I've said, but to maybe frame differently, I could see how 1000 Ultramarines in the 41st Millennium would be fairly limited to only using a pretty rigid color scheme, esp given the quasi-religious nature of the Codex Astartes, but the vibe I'd gotten from the HH novels and the FW black books is that the vastness and more 'agnostic' approach of the Astartes in 30k lended itself to a lot more variety.

 

Not only do there seem to be a number of variants given in the color plates for most if not all legions, but there seems to be pretty common examples of Astartes who don't even have the main icon of their legion, or who (Word Bearers in particular) wear Chapter icons that are just as visually dominant as the Legion one, if not moreso.

 

I guess if anything, I thought 30k would actually be more flexible than 40k in terms of army schemes and such. I do get there's a "historical" aspect of it, but I assumed that'd be limited to things like the battles (i.e. "well in reality Lorgar wasn't at the Siege and he certainly wasn't fighting Ferrus Manus on Terra so those Word Bearer and IH armies don't really fit the narrative of this campaign we're running").

 

I hadn't gotten the sense that there was a Flames of War level expectation that your opponent's 123.003m31 Blood Angels army is painted in the proper Murder campaign schemes using the correctly formulated matching Vallejo Horus Heresy Historicals paint sets, rather than the utterly unacceptable and ahistorical 002.m31 Triumph of Ullanor colors.....

[carlisimo]

As you say, it isn't a perfectly rigid setting, and Forge World's written in some scope for variability with alternative color schemes and, more relevantly for Iron Warriors, stories of isolated regiments that give you a chance to play around.

 

There are a few arguments for some orthodoxy. I would say there's an expectation of identifiability in this game, which is why the Imperial Fists' alternate schemes all have a splash of yellow in them. There are already 3 legions that wear some shade of red and you'll want to stand out from those. That shouldn't be too hard given that you're keeping the legion's heraldry, but it has to work at a normal gaming distance. Making use of metallic grays and hazard stripes would help with that.

 

How does the legion's pragmatic nature inform the color scheme? A lot of us would have a hard time accepting clean, fancy reds like those on Blood Angels and Thousand Sons unless your Iron Warriors were heavily influenced by the Emperor's Children during the events described in Angel Exterminatus, while red oxide primer (commonly used on steel in real life) would feel like a natural fit. Dantay VI's idea is a good one too.

 

You're also dealing with a legion that's famous for having changed very little from the early days of the Great Crusade through M41. What's the story behind a regiment that diverged from the norm? How'd they make the change, and what did they do after the Heresy? Your opponents will be curious. All you have to do is come up with something.

[Hesh Kadesh]

To me, color schemes aren't an inherent part of a Legion/Chapter's "identity". Or at least not in the sense of being completely sacrosanct.

 

Plus, as I've said, but to maybe frame differently, I could see how 1000 Ultramarines in the 41st Millennium would be fairly limited to only using a pretty rigid color scheme, esp given the quasi-religious nature of the Codex Astartes, but the vibe I'd gotten from the HH novels and the FW black books is that the vastness and more 'agnostic' approach of the Astartes in 30k lended itself to a lot more variety.

 

Not only do there seem to be a number of variants given in the color plates for most if not all legions, but there seems to be pretty common examples of Astartes who don't even have the main icon of their legion, or who (Word Bearers in particular) wear Chapter icons that are just as visually dominant as the Legion one, if not moreso.

 

I guess if anything, I thought 30k would actually be more flexible than 40k in terms of army schemes and such. I do get there's a "historical" aspect of it, but I assumed that'd be limited to things like the battles (i.e. "well in reality Lorgar wasn't at the Siege and he certainly wasn't fighting Ferrus Manus on Terra so those Word Bearer and IH armies don't really fit the narrative of this campaign we're running").

 

I hadn't gotten the sense that there was a Flames of War level expectation that your opponent's 123.003m31 Blood Angels army is painted in the proper Murder campaign schemes using the correctly formulated matching Vallejo Horus Heresy Historicals paint sets, rather than the utterly unacceptable and ahistorical 002.m31 Triumph of Ullanor colors.....

It sounds like you've got your mind made up, so you do what you want. Our validation is worthless, especially if you're going to ignore our opinion when you ask for it.

 

Enjoy YOUR hobby YOUR way. They are YOURDUDES, so stylise them. I do look forward to watching your project log.

[Dhar'Neth]

I could imagine a late Heresy Iron Warriors force specialised in brutal close combat assaults (they are famed from that modus operandi) turning slowly into Khorne Bereserkers - the paint scheme could represent this in a similiar way to that of World Eaters - by adding more and more red color onto their armor, covering the bare metal parts by gore and red paint. Some parts of armor could also rust.

[Paradigm]

You do realize that all legions that had a preferred method of warfare also have the ability to prosecute a war using tactics similar to all other legions.

 

Night Lords utilized siege warfare, with super heavy tanks, Imperial Fists used rapid insertion forces with lots of flyers and headhunters. Everyone did everything. If you like the siege aspect of the iron warriors but don’t like the scheme, just do a siege company from a red legion. Word Bearers don’t have to be all chaosed up, and Ksons don’t have to be all Egyptian looking. In fact a siege company might actiually be less austentatious anyway. Have the company led by an Iron Warriors-minded Praetor. Who has, in the anarchy that was the heresy, adapted a lot of their tactics. Maybe he fought with them for a long time and admired their demeanor.

[Kinstryfe]

The way I see it, if you want an early heresy Iron Warriors army in an atypical colour scheme, it's likely possible but difficult to justify. However, it's not impossible, and the further you get into the heresy the easier it becomes to justify. I will add having a pic of the scheme may help, because red covers a lot of shades and some are more easily justifiable than others. That said...

 

Early Heresy Options

-The grouping wears red as some sort of penance or honorific. Not the most IW thing to do but possible.

-The grouping is stationed on an inhospitable world with extremely high density of iron in the atmosphere. Other materials tend to both corrode the exposed parts of power armor and tend to imbed in it a rusty red colour. The grouping eventually used a reddish paint as a protective layer to slow the natural corrosion.

-The grouping has been operating outside of normal supply lines, and have used recovered armour plates from another red legion as field repairs. Best if the army is not solid red but has plenty of IW steel as well.

 

Later Heresy Options

-Purposeful repainting as a false-flag operation.

-The grip of Khorne on the army. Even the first IA list for IW let them use limited amounts of Berzerkers because it's common for the odd breacher marine to fall to him.

-Cult/Lodge activity. They weren't widespread in the IW, but they were there.

-Fragmenting of the command structure. Your Commander isn't thrilled with Perturabo and is starting to form the grouping into what will eventually become a warband or blackshield group.

 

There's enough precident for any of these things to be possible, at least in my opinion. Among legions of multiple hundreds of thousands of troops, I find it hard to believe that no group of Astartes ever adopted different markings, especially when most tabletop armies are about 100 Marines at a time.