Not My Idea: 4+ Mortal Wound Save, Only For GK Powers

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello all, I had a discussion with someone at my local game store.

 

I have not asked him permission to make this thread. I apologize profusely if I am offending him by making this thread.

 

In the course of a few minutes discussion, the concept of giving the Grey Knights the same 5+ Mortal Wound Save as Custodes versus all Psychic powers came up. Through continued discussion, there was the split Mortal Wound Save sequence of, each, 4+/5+ versus powers, 4 being GK self inflicted Mortal Wounds, the previously mentioned all cases 5+, and a proposed 3+/5+ split the same as the 4+/5+.

 

At the time he had to leave, we seemed to be both considering a flat 4+ Mortal Wound Save that only counts against self-generated Grey Knight Psychic Tests would likely be best.

 

As GK's, is this a possible solution? If it were baked in, as in, no real points increase, would it help? What might be fair, in that case? I have seen some posts in here about GK units needing some small points adjustments. I agree, although I lack your collective frame of reference.

 

So, 4+ versus perils generated Mortal Wounds for GK Psychic tests.

 

What say you?

[Gentlemanloser]

Meh.

 

Don't really perils too much. And they are ashoe in for a reroll.

[Karack Blackstone]

Meh.

 

Don't really perils too much. And they are ashoe in for a reroll.

 

Fair; just trying to gain perspective here.

 

I guess a save with the option to CP reroll if need be, might work. Just seems a way to save CP's for more useful things, but, using CP is a pretty big strategic element in 8th.

[Danarc]

I suffer perils more than average. But despite this I don’t think that this rule could change anything about gk power in the field.

[Corvus Fortis]

Perils are on the very bottom of the list of GK problems. There are games when I don't peril at all. But there are a lot of games where the half of my army goes down because it failed to charge shooty units. That's it.

[Capt. Mytre]

One of the issues with GK is that they are just purely more powerful in terms of output, but there's no increase in their defensive capabilities. This means they are glass cannon-ie and thus rely on alpha strike to deal damage before they die. Unless you get a strike squad into CC, most of their points increase is wasted.

 

I think a good rule to buff their defensive capability, while also being fluffy (and another example of a rule that makes them good vs demons by still decent against other armies):

 

Everlasting Purity - When this unit is damaged, it may roll a dice for each point of damage taken. On a 6+, it ignores that damage. If the damage inflicted occurred because of a psychic power and/or a unit with the DEMON keyword, it ignores the damage on a 5+. In addition, this unit cannot fail moral checks.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Capt. Mytre

[Panzer]

So basicall give them everything Iron Hands but better. ^^

 

Also I'm strictly against more immune to morale rules. It's one of the things that made 7th so bad. If anything I'd argue non-elite units should get their LD lowered even further.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well When synapse exists and Orks base moral off unit size.

 

Moral is cussed.

[Panzer]

No reason to make it even worse.

[Gentlemanloser]

If the horde armies that moral is supposed to be a balance check against can all ignore it, then why can't elite?

 

Every single Horde army has some method to trivialise Moral.  Heck even the new Deldar can turn casualties into Moral immunity.

[Panzer]

Because making something bad even worse is not going to improve the situation. I thought that's obvious and doesn't require any explanation.  

Why not try to opposite, more reasonably, approach? Tuning the immune to morale rules down for horde armies? Halving the loss from morale would still be strong enough (just an example and not meant to be taken as serious suggestion).

[Gentlemanloser]

Of course that would be better.

 

But it doesn't seem to be a design desire.  Not with Deldar, the most recent dex, getting moral immunity.

[Panzer]

Neither it seems to be a desire to give elite units moral immunity.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hence the disconnect.

 

Moral is the balancer for Horde over Elite.  Except it does not currently, and never has, filled that role.

 

Horde armies *all* ignore it.  Leaving it only effecting Elite armies.

 

Which it shouldn't.  It should be the downside to Hordes...

[Danarc]

Hence the disconnect.

 

Moral is the balancer for Horde over Elite.  Except it does not currently, and never has, filled that role.

 

Horde armies *all* ignore it.  Leaving it only effecting Elite armies.

 

Which it shouldn't.  It should be the downside to Hordes...

exactly. It seems a little crazy how moral works now.

[Panzer]

Except that Elite armies usually ignore it as well based on their small unit size. Unless someone stacks negative LD modifier a unit of 5 Marines really couldn't care less about morale tests. And even then they have their default re-roll. Even if you kill half of a unit of 10 Marines it's still pretty safe unless the dice gods hate you (average roll of 3-4, gotta need a 4+ to start losing models at 5 losses).

 

Giving elite armies a rule to ignore morale completely does very little for their survivability but does a lot to steer the overall game into the wrong direction. I don't see the slightest reason why that should even be considered over a re-work of the ignore morale abilities of horde units instead.

[Gentlemanloser]

So if Moral hardly ever effects Elite units, and it *never* effects Hordes (due to them all being immune), then why bother with it?

 

If you made everyone immune to it, or simply got rid of it, would that effect *anyone*?

[Panzer]

There are plenty units who aren't immune to morale. You're acting as if every cheap unit has a ignore morale rule but that's just not true.

Also your logic is still faulty. "It's bad so instead of correcting it lets just make it even worse or get rid of it completely". That's why we can't have nice things (not even joking here).

[Capt. Mytre]

So basicall give them everything Iron Hands but better. ^^

 

Also I'm strictly against more immune to morale rules. It's one of the things that made 7th so bad. If anything I'd argue non-elite units should get their LD lowered even further.

 

Just because other factions are weak isn't an argument for us remaining weak. I'd argue that under-represented SM factions should also receive buffs, you could even make Iron Hands game wise 5+++ and have methods to increase it with techmarines etc, but that involves GW doing more than just calling a Chapter Iron hands but use a different generic special rule compared to Ultramarines.

 

Moral, as it stands, is in a pathetic place. While hoards don't care about it, I can lose Paladin to it even in a 5 man squad. It unfairly hurts expensive units. While I agree that a rework needs to be done, if we assume that nothing will be changed, which is a fairly safe assumption, GK should be immune, as should be SM.

[Panzer]

 

Moral, as it stands, is in a pathetic place. While hoards don't care about it, I can lose Paladin to it even in a 5 man squad. It unfairly hurts expensive units. While I agree that a rework needs to be done, if we assume that nothing will be changed, which is a fairly safe assumption, GK should be immune, as should be SM.

 

But if GK and SM gets an ignore morale rule then it isn't "nothing will be changed". If that happens something changes. Just not into the right direction. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Every cheap unit does.

 

From adding commisars, or being in synapse range, or having an ork mob of 30 next to you.  Or spending 1CP and killing an enemy making you immune to moral.

 

What cheap unit *isn't* moral immune?

 

Edit: And no, there's nothing wrong with my logic.  I've already said above that the best route would be to remove moral immunity form hordes.  But that isn't going to happen.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Panzer]

I can assure you, not every cheap unit does.

 

Ah whatever it's tedious and simply impossible to discuss on some topics with you. You can go through the Codexes and make a list yourself. Back on my ignore list you go, I'm out of here.

[Capt. Mytre]

 

 

Moral, as it stands, is in a pathetic place. While hoards don't care about it, I can lose Paladin to it even in a 5 man squad. It unfairly hurts expensive units. While I agree that a rework needs to be done, if we assume that nothing will be changed, which is a fairly safe assumption, GK should be immune, as should be SM.

 

But if GK and SM gets an ignore morale rule then it isn't "nothing will be changed". If that happens something changes. Just not into the right direction. 

 

 

It's providing balance between cheap armies and expensive armies (which is a major balance issue ATM), it's not the best solution, but it's better than nothing. Keeping it as it is means it's maintaining less balance. While it might be the wrong direction, it better for the overall game.

 

 

commisars,

 

Commissars are just a reroll now AFAIK.

[Plasmablasts]

Commissars force a reroll on a failed morale test, at the cost of an additional casualty. The new Summary Execution rule actually makes them less good at morale mitigation than if they just conferred their Ld 8. They can still raise Conscripts to effectively Ld 7, but Conscripts are now capped at 20 strong (maybe 30, I forget, but definitely lower than in the Index) and CA raised their points to the same as Infantry Squads.

 

So, GW has shown itself willing to address morale immunity. Whether Conscripts and Commissars really deserved having all three bolt pistol shots to the head is debatable...

[Capt. Mytre]

Commissars force a reroll on a failed morale test, at the cost of an additional casualty. The new Summary Execution rule actually makes them less good at morale mitigation than if they just conferred their Ld 8. They can still raise Conscripts to effectively Ld 7, but Conscripts are now capped at 20 strong (maybe 30, I forget, but definitely lower than in the Index) and CA raised their points to the same as Infantry Squads.

 

So, GW has shown itself willing to address morale immunity. Whether Conscripts and Commissars really deserved having all three bolt pistol shots to the head is debatable...

 

That was only because the massive outcry of conscript spam. We haven't seen many, if any, game wide changes. It would require a re-write, and that ain't happening for ages. What they also showed was that they suck as balancing, doubling the nerf to and poorly writing the rules.

 

1. Why would you increase conscripts to the same price as regular guard? Flat out stupid.

 

2. Why FORCE a re-roll? It should be optional, to take a single loss and then re-roll or just let that good roll go through.