Imperial Knights House Traits & Stratagems

[derLumpi]

Anybody know how many more weeks of fishpeople releases are ahead? They seem to be dripping them out slowly but I still assume that the knights are either released or up for preorder by warhammer fest.

 

I know. It's a pain to know that knights will come but the suspense is killing me! :D

[Mushkilla]

 

I want a really big flamer.

 

Yeah, it would be a nice option on the plastic kits. There's a really good argument for fielding Acheron's simply because the auto-hitting nature of that big ol' flamer makes it in large part immune to wound degradation unlike other Knights.

 

 

A flamer option on the armiger variant (Helliger) would be awesome (also ties in with the name). Especially if it was assault like the thermal spear, moving 14+d6" and then dishing out auto hits would make for an interesting option. It would also distinguish the anti light/medium infantry version of the armiger from say a warden. I'm not really interested in having a mini avenger gatling cannon, I'd much rather a 3d6 S5 AP-1 1D 18" flamer for flushing pray out of cover (tying back in with the hunting dog theme). Would make it harder to bog them down with chaff infantry too.

[Vel'Cona]

Wasn't this topic about house traits/strategems?  Rather keep it on focus than get into random wishlisting.

 

FWIW, the DE codex showed probably the best ingenuity and flexibility in any Strategem roster to date, so it's fair to expect IK will get a similar treatment.  GW seems to have figured out (to some extent) what role they want Strategems to play, and the push for more CPs with "core build" Detachments like Battalions is exactly the right step to make Strategems more integral to gameplay (since we'll be able to use them more often, ostensibly).  That being said, the biggest challenge going forward will be getting enough CPs to meet the demand, so I'd expect IK Warlord Traits and Relics to be heavily focused on this central tenet.

[Mileposter]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a warlord trait that regenerates CP, as we've seen in a few other Codices.

 

It's true though, given that any Knight takes the LoW slot, our methods of garnering CP are pretty static - so the Codex is going to have to be creative to let us use more than a smattering of Stratagems at all. Suppose how they attend to that will be telling of GW's focus on the game as a whole.

[PiñaColada]

Wasn't this topic about house traits/strategems?  Rather keep it on focus than get into random wishlisting.

 

FWIW, the DE codex showed probably the best ingenuity and flexibility in any Strategem roster to date, so it's fair to expect IK will get a similar treatment.  GW seems to have figured out (to some extent) what role they want Strategems to play, and the push for more CPs with "core build" Detachments like Battalions is exactly the right step to make Strategems more integral to gameplay (since we'll be able to use them more often, ostensibly).  That being said, the biggest challenge going forward will be getting enough CPs to meet the demand, so I'd expect IK Warlord Traits and Relics to be heavily focused on this central tenet.

The Dark Eldar codex does bring me hope in that they gave them fun, fluffy and powerful mechanics for that army. I do wonder though if they even assume people will ever bring a pure knight army, the FAQ helps give more elite armies better access with CP but unless a super heavy detachment counts as a battalion for pure Imperial Knights then pure IK will very rarely see more than 6CP. I really want to stay cautiously optimistic but I'm afraid the hype is starting to get to me, something that might end up disappointing me.

[Nusquam]

Two knights and four Armiger/Helligers(to avoid the 3datasheet hardcap) would net 9 cp for having two super heavy detachments and being battleforged while fitting in 2k.

 

That's a fair amount of CP to spend on Stratagems. Add in any method to regain or cut CP cost and it opens possibilities. We know we'll be spending about 6 alone on Rotate Ion Shields and Machine Spirit Resurgent (if applicable). So every point and new stratagem counts

[PiñaColada]

Well 2 super heavy detachments are certainly possible but it's difficult to know exactly how retrictive that's going to be without knowing point changes, not to mention how much the Castellan is going to end up costing. I don't think GW can count on a pure IK army having more than 6 CP so I hope the stratagems are quite powerful.

 

Something similar to the Datalink Telemetry stratagem from the Space Marines codex would be cool, where an enemy unit within 12" of an Armiger can be chosen and all hit rolls are +1 against it.

 

Rotate Ion shields are going to be used every turn most likely and machine spirit resurgence is also too good to pass up, I just hope we get some flavour outside of those two.

[Mileposter]

I think the 9CP expectation is the right one. Double Super-Heavy should be the goal of the Pure Knight Army, assuming no additions to how Knight Force Org might work. Given we already know they're giving us more options in the form of Armiger variations and a knew bigger Chassis, I'd think that this is the perfect give/take area for it. We're forced to decide on what Knights we take into a fight, and the tightness on points will likely be what forces variety among lists.

 

But that's all speculation, since any one of a number of small changes can blow that out of possibility.

[PiñaColada]

Well yes, I just meant that it's restrictive in the sense that it assumes you want to run 4 armiger style chassis knight, which I doubt I would like for example. I understand it'd look cool and it might even be practical but to me a knight list should have at least 3 big ones, so hopefully you wouldn't feel left out by going that route and starving yourself CP in the process. 

[Nusquam]

I think 6 is low-balling it, especially if knights are only allies most of the time. A battalion+SHD is 11CP now. One can comfortably fit one or two big knights and fill the remainder with an armiger or two then the battalion with troops/scoring bodies. The Castellan will probably fit comfortably in a list like that. I wouldn't be surprised if GW expects that and has supplemental stratagems for foot troops nearby to reflect that; One example could be "In the Shadows of the God Machines" that gives a moral boost to friendly infantry and negatives to enemy.

 

I would love a "House retainers" rule that functions like GSC "Brood Brothers" to supplement an otherwise short army list. Take a detachment of Guard and swap <REGIMENT> with <HOUSEHOLD RETAINER> that gives a generic rule like a small bonus when near a Knight. Then a suite of Stratagems to support the two. Maybe something that gives a bonus to scoring infantry near a knight.

[Charlo]

I think 6 is low-balling it, especially if knights are only allies most of the time. A battalion+SHD is 11CP now. One can comfortably fit one or two big knights and fill the remainder with an armiger or two then the battalion with troops/scoring bodies. The Castellan will probably fit comfortably in a list like that. I wouldn't be surprised if GW expects that and has supplemental stratagems for foot troops nearby to reflect that; One example could be "In the Shadows of the God Machines" that gives a moral boost to friendly infantry and negatives to enemy.

 

I would love a "House retainers" rule that functions like GSC "Brood Brothers" to supplement an otherwise short army list. Take a detachment of Guard and swap <REGIMENT> with <HOUSEHOLD RETAINER> that gives a generic rule like a small bonus when near a Knight. Then a suite of Stratagems to support the two. Maybe something that gives a bonus to scoring infantry near a knight.

 

Really like that idea.

[Mileposter]

I think 6 is low-balling it, especially if knights are only allies most of the time. A battalion+SHD is 11CP now. One can comfortably fit one or two big knights and fill the remainder with an armiger or two then the battalion with troops/scoring bodies. The Castellan will probably fit comfortably in a list like that. I wouldn't be surprised if GW expects that and has supplemental stratagems for foot troops nearby to reflect that; One example could be "In the Shadows of the God Machines" that gives a moral boost to friendly infantry and negatives to enemy.

 

I would love a "House retainers" rule that functions like GSC "Brood Brothers" to supplement an otherwise short army list. Take a detachment of Guard and swap <REGIMENT> with <HOUSEHOLD RETAINER> that gives a generic rule like a small bonus when near a Knight. Then a suite of Stratagems to support the two. Maybe something that gives a bonus to scoring infantry near a knight.

Yeah, I'm kinda expecting that myself - I mentioned it on the first page. I think it'll be very telling about their view of the game at large by how they handle giving Knights their support. Either they'll boost their CP, supporting single-faction mentalities, or they'll focus on letting Knights soup their synergies with obvious implications.

[synthaside]

Ultimately 5 command points of Skitari will cost 199 points, 3 barebones ranger teams and two Tech-priest Enginseers to do some repairs for you ...
even if it is just 1 wound.

[Nusquam]

There's a strat that allows one to repair again and the same unit. Combine with Necromaniac and that's 4 wounds a turn. Which makes me wonder if AdMech aligned Knight houses will have stratagems to support things like skitarii and enginseers.

[BolterZorro]

Ultimately 5 command points of Skitari will cost 199 points, 3 barebones ranger teams and two Tech-priest Enginseers to do some repairs for you ...

even if it is just 1 wound.

this (and we can expect some optimisation in this direction)

 

 

There's a strat that allows one to repair again and the same unit. Combine with Necromaniac and that's 4 wounds a turn. Which makes me wonder if AdMech aligned Knight houses will have stratagems to support things like skitarii and enginseers.

and this.

 

I'd be so disapointed not to see some enhancements in this direction

[Mileposter]

If they do go that direction, then who would the Imperial Aligned Knight House Stratagems synergize with? Guard?

[Nusquam]

Guard I'd say. I personally use Tempestus at the moment since their armor aesthetics match.

[hermanista]

Well 6 cp is rubbish in the new beta rules.

 

Grrrrr

[PiñaColada]

Well 6 cp is rubbish in the new beta rules.

 

Grrrrr

So you've played quite a few games with pure knights now. I'm guessing rotate ion shields is used every turn and machine spirit resurgent is often employed as well. How long did 6 CP last you, 2-3 turns? Have any situations come up where you thought "man I wish there was a stratagem for that"? 

 

I'm only asking since you're probably one of the more experienced pure IK players in 8th on these forums

[hermanista]

I didn't actually play them as AdMech, they get played as Questor Imperialis.

 

It's tough choice, but the reasoning being I got a call that rotate could be used on the Styrix ion shield, so decided the 3++ was more useful to try than the top level shooting.

 

6 cp lasts bugger all really, I always try for turn.

 

I'm gonna give up on using cp for rerolls, my luck is terrible.

 

So basically rotate can be used twice per turn - enemy shooting and enemy combat phases. Means you can shift the rotate if you've used it on the crusader taking fire, to the Styrix if it's in combat.

 

The standard mission objective cards really hurt a knight list - there's so many defend/secure cards that it just stalls the force when stuff has to stand back here and there, bunting the attack of throwing 2 or 3 units into a single point.

 

Normally my warlord takes the knight Senschal +1 attack strat. For yesterday's games I tried tenacious survivor. And then completely forgot to roll for every single wound I took in each game. Doh.

 

 

Strats I feel we need basically boil down to

 

Knights either to get objective secured, or count as objective scored per current damage bracket, so a full health knight counts as three units for example.

 

Double shoot

 

Ability for sword/fist to attack units on the second floor of a building, but not able to stomp

 

A much better objectives deck

 

Machine spirit resurgent

 

 

 

Oh and I hate tabling auto wins, it should be say +5 Mission points, but not generate an auto win. *grumble grumble*

[synthaside]

I've never actually played anywhere where auto tabling wins... even games at my local GW (  Store manager and staff are all involved in the local club and events  )
Here its played out that a tabling means you get the remainder of the game ... as uncontested turns to score as many points as possible.

However, Not having a tabling count as a crushing/max score win, adds a lot of complexity to the rules which I understand as to why they aren't in the streamlined GW Rules.

A rough breakdown from memory; Tabling net's the victor 1 Automatic scoring turn uncontested that game round automatically counts as turn 5, the player who has been tabled rolls as normal to see if your game ends exactly as normal end of game rolls, usual limits of command on this roll , EG no CP.  Any destroy, slay, morale cards are counted as automatic scores if you achieved them in the game ....  but only as the minimum points value ...  Typically it ends up being about 5-6 victory points but not always, sometimes you just dont have any units left to score them which feels very fair.

It was always felt that  tabling for an auto-win felt wrong, but  removing it introduced other issues, the first one was  surrender's its a shame but people were trying to cheese league points , when your playing many games across many weeks, score actually becomes more important than losses,  A few less scrupulous Alpha strike armies would concede at the end of their turn two or three  especially when it was becoming clear that the game wasn't going their way ... knowing they can deny the impact of their loss by denying the person they are playing against scoring points.

Unless two players are drawn on score the number of wins doesn't really matter, 8 solid crushing wins could score better than 5 mediocre ones.  I'm currently 3rd in the league despite having a draw with the player who's above me, that Filthy Xenos player just has more mobility to capture points in games.  https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31131595_10160282474350608_5900510291258507264_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a0ad8f702ed8c9cd80d59966e8b04eae&oe=5B527EF5.

Surely ... there must be a way for you to squeeze in that 199 detachment of Skitari, and TPE's  I  know it means being Ad mech and giving up the rotate ion shields but it gives you access to the Ad mech deck canticles if you need it ... run them as either Graia or Stygies  and hide them at the back .. 

[hermanista]

It's because I'm not really a tournament player and much more narrative in style.

 

You see this makes sense to me

 

*scene; an arid planet, under attack by chaos*

 

"Senschal, here is your mission. Take your knights and I want you to kill that warlord, destroy that ammo cache and hold that beige as long as possible whilst these civilians are evacuated"

 

"Yes Ranger-General!"

 

*During mission*

 

"Knight Styrix to Ranger-General, cache is destroyed, enemy warlord down, bridge... Bridge held for two hours. I am the last standing... surrounded... Mission parameters achieved, am detonating my core due to destroy bridge as a useable structure to the traitors.

 

May the Emperor welcome me into his arms"

 

"Before you do Knight-Styrix, You lost. All that stuff you did, doesn't actually matter, so you failed"

 

 

 

It's just silly.

 

Give it that +3/5 victory points or something

[PiñaColada]

I actually played my first game with my 2 armigers and a joint admech force of 1500 points today. I ended up being tabled on round 6 in a game where I was ahead 10-4 on points so I somewhat share that concern, although I'm okay with it either way. I played a fun list against a much stronger list though so I'm not surprised. The armigers, much like I suspected they would, underperformed. I got round one and both of them stripped 7 wounds of a fire prism, one of them died during his turn and the other was brought down to 6 wounds. Round 2 it stripped 4 wounds of a hemlock and then died. 

Thoguhts? No psychic defense is really difficult to overlook. Their damage is too random. 80% of my opponents army was hiding in buildings so they couldn't charge.

 

The psychic defense is at least somehwhat fixed by a stratagem that works like the Graia one (deny a spell within 24" on 4+) or a stratagem that gives them a 5+ FnP against mortal wounds during that phase. 

The damage is probably going to stay the same way, it'll be less painful with a points drop. Maybe the warlord can give an aura that makes them reroll the random number of shots?

GW needs to fix the terrain rules. My opponent played alaitoc (which is a whole other discussion in regards to stacking modifiers) but could place almost all of his units on top of ruins, including his vehicles since they have fly. So my dragoons and armigers were rendered almost useless.

 

Man I wish these things wuld be 180 points, which is a fair value.

[synthaside]

I've been taking Inquisitors as a little supplement to my ad mech,  in practice for the Lonon GT Narrative event,
The event has loads of extra buffs for Psykers and in my first practice game with a pal ,  I got murdered so badly by Eldar with lots of psykers , even he admitted it wasn't fair
by turn 3 all his psykers were able to  double cast  at +2 to rolls ... so 2 XD3 smite on a 3+ and good rolls make it possible to be 2Xd6 smite .

I think we need some form of portable Geller field unit, even if it were a relic, Eg a thing that provides the Culexus -2 to casts within 18 debuff on a model.
 

[ImperialSquishiness]

I'd like to see some form of stratagem that buffs Armigers if they're within a distance of a parent Knight or targeting the same target as their parent. Seeing as fluff wise they are connected to a Knight's throne mechanicum, it makes sense