Rangan Xenocides 2nd 11th Legions

[Charlo]

So according to the Regimental Standard, if it is to be believed, the 2nd and 11th legions were involved in the Xenocides.

[1ncarnadine]

Yeah, it's vaguely hinted at in Retribution that the Xenocides may have been where one or both missing Legions met their doom. We'll definitely never get firm answers and always be allowed to come up with our own stories there, but GW's IP department does seem to have a secret set of dates for when the Primarchs of these Legions were found (although what "found" means is open to interpretation), and when they were ultimately destroyed or went missing. I think they just use it for internal consistency. 

 

For the heck of it, here's the Primarch discovery order that Laurie has revealed before:

 

Horus
Leman Russ
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Ferrus Manus
Fulgrim
Vulkan
Rogal Dorn
Roboute Guilliman
Magnus the Red
Sanguinius
Lion El'Jonson
Perturabo
Mortarion
Lorgar
Jaghatai Khan
Konrad Curze
Angron
Corax
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Alpharius

 

So perhaps whichever one was discovered between Corax and Alpharius missed the Xenocides. Or that Primarch missed it, but their Legion was annihilated? Who knows. I guess it could be helpful to try and figure out a timeline for when the Xenocides happened, if it hasn't been done before. They may also have been several different events in broadly the same area of space, but as a resurgent, reoccurring threat, which would make it very difficult to tell.

[TheRealMcCagh]

There isn't that much information on the Xenocides themselves though right? It just crippled the Dark Angels such that they were no longer the largest legion and it's where in the Space Wolves got their 'Executioner' title. Maybe on of the Primarchs was found during the Rangan Xenocide, but he was allied with the other side

[Sandlemad]

But also this is the Regimental Standard playing on fan knowledge and speculation for the goof, as is their wont. Note that the obscured bit ends "Hail the Warmaster!" when of course (*extremely nerdy scoff*) Horus was not the warmaster until after Ullanor.

 

In fairness considering Inferno's only about a year old and so the most detailed picture of the Xenocides (still not that detailed) is recent background, they probably needed that warmaster line to show the wider readership/fanbase that this is heretical stuff that shouldn't have found its way into the Uplifting Primer, for comedic effect. Not to say that they don't have some sort of internal timeline or whatever but the Regimental Standard crew are doing this for justified laughs.

[rendingon1+]

"greetings solar auxila"

They should leave this kind of humour for 40k were it belongs.

[Lord_Caerolion]

There isn't that much information on the Xenocides themselves though right? It just crippled the Dark Angels such that they were no longer the largest legion and it's where in the Space Wolves got their 'Executioner' title. Maybe on of the Primarchs was found during the Rangan Xenocide, but he was allied with the other side

It does also state that “by the end, entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium.” It’s enough to make it a possibility, and seems to be being taken as what destroyed the Legions.

 

The list might not be fully accurate any longer either, given Corax was told he had 17 brothers when the Emperor discovered him, unless the Emperor was that ruthless as to kill the Primarch whose Legion got destroyed as soon as they discovered him, to keep the story hidden.

[Marshal Rohr]

That list will still be accurate, the dialogue in a story could slip through the cracks. The BL authors have a word of god timeline and summary of what happens in the Heresy, it’s just doubtful we will ever get to see it.

[Leif Bearclaw]

It does also state that “by the end, entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium.” It’s enough to make it a possibility, and seems to be being taken as what destroyed the Legions.

 

See, I still reckon that's just too on the nose, it has to be FW trolling the fanbase.

 

Especially after all the deliberate muddying of the waters in other books, that bit of Inferno just seems out of place. People want to infer that the redacted sections boils down to 'were' (so 'Legions were lost to the Imperium'). Which hardly seems worth the redacting.

 

It also seems wrong from an 'in universe' perspective (as the Black Books are written as Imperial History documents). If the 'truth' is something so bad happened during the Xenocides that the Legions were subject to a Damnatio memoriae (even after another 9 Legions turned to Chaos) why redact so little from the text that that the natural pattern of reading still leads to the 'correct' conclusion? It just doesn't sit right with me.

[Warhead01]

What if one of those legions or both of those legions had been stolen. There's a Necron wandering around collecting things after all. 

[Jareddm]

 

There isn't that much information on the Xenocides themselves though right? It just crippled the Dark Angels such that they were no longer the largest legion and it's where in the Space Wolves got their 'Executioner' title. Maybe on of the Primarchs was found during the Rangan Xenocide, but he was allied with the other side

It does also state that “by the end, entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium.” It’s enough to make it a possibility, and seems to be being taken as what destroyed the Legions.

 

The list might not be fully accurate any longer either, given Corax was told he had 17 brothers when the Emperor discovered him, unless the Emperor was that ruthless as to kill the Primarch whose Legion got destroyed as soon as they discovered him, to keep the story hidden.

 

The current explanation is that the Emperor was referring to the two primarchs that had yet to be found, Missing #2 and Alpharius, and his sad look was him thinking back to the storm that scattered the primarchs in the first place.

 

Given the timing, the 1st Rangdan Xenocide might've been the very first mission that Missing #2 was given, and it just stomped him and his legion, hard.  Maybe he was captured and/or infected by one of the many ways the Rangdan had of spreading themselves and it mutated him, Starcraft Infected Terran-style.  That would be a good loophole to get around the whole, "No one thinking a primarch could die."  He wasn't a primarch anymore.

[Zuvassin]

I think one explanation for why 2 and 11 are [REDACTED] when the traitor legions are still subjects that can be talked about is that, in universe, the FW black books author (the Imperial scribe reflecting back after the Heresy) is still operating out of the same habit as the Astartes about never directly referencing the expunged legions and primarchs by name.

 

In other words, I think it's a bit of a red herring to interpret "he can mention Lorgar and the Death Guard, but not the #2 primarch or the name of the 11th legion" as somehow implying what happened to the 2/11 are degrees worse than the treachery of the Heresy legions. I think in-universe, it's really just a remnant of how most everybody who knew anything about those legions had long accepted and been conditioned to utterly [REDACT] any mention of names, or even really to talk about them outside of use as vague evidence of vague conspiracies (e.g. "how do you think the Ultramarines got so numerous?" or "how do you think the Wolves got their reputation?").

 

Plus in the context of 40k, the idea that the Imperium is both hyper-censor and incredibly incompetent fits the fluff. It seems perfectly grimdark that of all the things to randomly miscopy over a bog-standard propaganda piece, that someone somehow randomly and unwittingly got hold of a document uncovering truths about two of the Imperium's greatest secrets, just fits perfectly, IMO.

 

Or maybe it was just Alpharius, lol.

[MasterofMankind]

 

It does also state that “by the end, entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium.” It’s enough to make it a possibility, and seems to be being taken as what destroyed the Legions.

 

See, I still reckon that's just too on the nose, it has to be FW trolling the fanbase.

 

Especially after all the deliberate muddying of the waters in other books, that bit of Inferno just seems out of place. People want to infer that the redacted sections boils down to 'were' (so 'Legions were lost to the Imperium'). Which hardly seems worth the redacting.

 

It also seems wrong from an 'in universe' perspective (as the Black Books are written as Imperial History documents). If the 'truth' is something so bad happened during the Xenocides that the Legions were subject to a Damnatio memoriae (even after another 9 Legions turned to Chaos) why redact so little from the text that that the natural pattern of reading still leads to the 'correct' conclusion? It just doesn't sit right with me.

The redacted portion doesn't need to be a single word, it could well be "entire Space Marine Legions, such as the Void Sharks and Star Ghosts (made up lost legion names), were lost to the Imperium"

[1ncarnadine]

It could also be something like "Entire Space Marine Legions were forced to carry out unspeakable atrocities against Slaugth-infested human populations, and whole worlds were lost to the Imperium."

 

Definitely some kind of moral threat that someone over AK didn't want anyone to know about. I think it also makes sense in-universe that it could still be the missing Legions, though. A Legion controlled by brain parasites, influenced by xenos psyk-monstrosities, or whatever, and being annihilated is a different kind of moral threat to the Legions turning against the Emperor in the Heresy. It implies that the works of the Emperor are fallible on a massive scale and mundane level, possibly even a Primarch. And the Heresy is also just too large to cover up so quickly and easily. And then most of it still gets wiped from the Imperium's history eventually, anyway.

[bluntblade]

Yep. That REDACTED could cover something vast or small.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The redacted portion doesn't need to be a single word, it could well be "entire Space Marine Legions, such as the Void Sharks and Star Ghosts (made up lost legion names), were lost to the Imperium"

 

You seem to have missed the point when I said it 'boils down to were'. Yes, there could be a whole bunch of additional info behind that [redacted], but if it's being taken as 'proof' that 'Rangdan is how the Lost Legions were lost' then that's essentially window dressing and doesn't matter, 'were' conveys the salient information. Which is the root of why that section bothers me. After being so cagey for so long on the issue, Inferno is apparently so on the nose. It just doesn't sit right, and given the fandom's habit of reading into anything (see Blood Ravens, Fallen Angels, previous Lost Legion hints etc.) this just reeks of someone at FW going 'heh, this'll really get the fan over thinkers going' rather than 'we'll finally reveal the truth, in actually quite an obvious way'.

[Kinstryfe]

I've kind of come to view the reason that the traitor legions were not censored as thus. Whatever happened to the II and XI seems to be something referred to in universe as final. If not final as in they are gone forever (Dorn could be construed as implying they were still accessible when talking to Malcador if you read it certain ways), it is still final in that they acknowledge that they are beyond any reach. This being censored makes sense. They are a past failure or threat or whatever they were, and are no longer something of concern. The traitor legions, however, are not a past threat but a very real present and future threat. Aside from the fact that having 55% of legions stricken from the record would have its own sort of demoralizing effect, it would also leave the entire Imperial military unprepared to face one of their biggest possible threats immediately following the heresy.

[Paradigm]

I think it makes sense that at least one of the legions were effectively destroyed due to the Rangdan Xenocides. We have sort of a pseudo-precedence in the Lysithea conquest where many of the veterans are withdrawn from service and never seen again. I say it isn't a true precedence, as it says it never happened before or since, but I think it still kind of fits because if the whole legion and its history are redacted, then there wouldn't have to be an official time it happened again.

I don't think it likely that both the second and eleventh are lost at the same place, because if they found a primarch without a legion, the emperor would have likely just put him in charge of one of the legions that didn't have one, or just put him to work in another place within the greater imperium. A primarch is an extremely useful tool, and I don't see the Emperor's pragmatism allowing him to discard a tool that still could be used. He could have put the lost primarch in charge of the XIIth legion and disposed of Angron, or any number of other uses.

The second lost primarch was found after rangdan, and his legion should have still been in existence at this point, or he'd be doing something else, at least until they could rebuild since they have the template back. So striking him and his legion had to happen after.