Finally finished Crimson King

[bozo69pd]

*Spoilers for Crimson King, Master of Prospero, and Ahriman Unchanged IN THIS THREAD*

 

 

Ok so I got confused with a tidbit here when I finished Crimson King. Magnus needs to join with his last soul shard, his best part: loyalty and honor. This is a great dynamic that I see here because it gives him a great excuse for his legion presence on Terra, and for the Battle of the Fang. However at the end of Ahriman Unchanged he joins with what I thought was his last soul shard. Can anyone confirm?

 

Also, where is Magnus at in the timeline now? He already did his assault on the Fenris system, had a duel against Guilloman, and pulled the Planet of the Sorcerers into real space, correct?

[Kite Senet]

More spoilers, for The Last Son of Prospero (and several other TSons short stories):

My understanding is that according to The Last Son of Prospero, that last noble shard of Magnus ended up implanted by Malcador into a loyalist Thousand Sons marine by the name of Revuel Arvida; the resulting entity was neither Arvida nor Magnus, but Janus, the first Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

So the shard in Ahriman: Unchanged couldn't be the noble shard at Terra in The Crimson King. I frankly don't know where that shard comes from either.

 

It might be nice to mention the general inclusion of spoilers for the Ahriman trilogy in the title too, besides the obvious Crimson King spoilers, considering how generally awesome the Ahriman trilogy is and how every fan of 40k should read it.

[Scammel]

TCK is probably the weakest book to focus on the Sons, and McNeil comes close to tacitly admitting as much in his afterword. It came out around the same time as Master of Prospero, and the difference was remarkable (I thoroughly recommend MoP, by the way). 

[Kite Senet]

I also read through Master of Prospero at around the same time as The Crimson King. To be honest, I didn't detect a major quality difference between the two. I did enjoy reading about the interactions between Magnus and Perturabo, though.

 

I felt like the entire remembrancer subplot in A Thousand Sons only serves as a massive distraction from the main Thousand Sons story--only in The Crimson King does anything of value actually come out of that entire narrative arc, and even then, only through one of those three main remembrancer characters. For that reason I'd say The Crimson King was a bit of an improvement over A Thousand Sons, in the sense that its narrative is more finely focused and coherent, whereas A Thousand Sons was frequently meandering and...

 

(ranting:)

...okay, right to the point, the entire existence of Kallista Eris was utterly silly: little more than an irrelevant conveyor belt for generic prophecies who took up far too much screentime, just to be exploded by Ahriman and Ankhu Anen for absolutely no reason in a scene which undermined my entire suspension of disbelief just as the novel was coming to a close. Ahriman training Lemuel was kind of neat, and actually gave a touch of insight into the 15th Legion's interactions with mortals, but his sections were still overdone. And Shivani was an incredibly forgettable, uninteresting character, paralleled only in her complete unnecessary-ness by Chaiya. Why McNeill decided to throw in a handful of useless remembrancers for them to either die in pointless, incoherent ways or else be absolutely and completely irrelevant to the story, I will never know.

 

That said, the Burning of Prospero is a substantially more dramatic event overall than "the quest to gather some Magnus shards to save Magnus", so I could see why one would argue A Thousand Sons is the more interesting book overall; I just think The Crimson King might be a better written take on an intrinsically less interesting event.

 

In general though, I find the Ahriman trilogy by far the best of the lot; but I think that is largely because I prefer Ahriman as a character far more than Magnus; there's just something more intrinsically noble about Ahriman and his stubborn, perpetual quest to save the Thousand Sons that just doesn't persist with Magnus, especially after his fight with Leman Russ.

[bozo69pd]

I am going to come clean right here guys. I don't like reading Graham McNeill. I know I am sorry, I prefer French and ADB writing Thousand Sons every time. I feel like McNeill is overly detailed on things that are completely irrelevant and distract from the story. Sometimes I would reread a page a few times to figure out what was driving the story vs what was frivolous. I do like his use of foreshadowing though because that ties very well with Tzeentch to show how the layers of millennia of actions ripple together.

 

I don't like remembrancers. I like how the Death Guard and Horus treated them. I like how the Thousand Sons document everything in an unbias way, I do not care for a remembrancers political spin or artistic flourish. They should all be flogged and used for parchment, with their meat fed to the valuable Tzaangors to keep them strong for boarding actions.

 

I did like Crimson King overall because of how Senet mentioned it was a more refined story. McNeill has had a lot of practice since Thousand Sons I suppose. Master of Prospero I was sort of indifferent about other than it gave some insight into the characters, and also more into Iron Warriors. It is kinda like you have to both love and hate both those legions for their strengths and weaknesses haha. In general though Master of Prospero was a lesser sidequest which is funny for how much danger they were in... I mean the risk was what? Some of the colonists were unwittingly terrorists who might escape and cause some rebellions/sabotage? It was pretty insignificant on the timeline compared to the other Primarch Novels. If anything it reinforces the joke that Thousand Sons are not getting much done outside of their Academic Pursuits.

 

I like Ahriman. He actually wishes he could always make the best choice for everyone, but his plight and experience have taught him to make pretty good snap decisions that others are too weak to follow through with.

 

Magnus on the other hand I want to like, but he has all these conflicting facets to his character. It is tough to get a solid feel for where he is going. I definitely liked how at the end of Crimson King it describes his goal of burning down the imperium and staying independant from the traitor legions. Build for a brighter future one day. I suppose if he had it his way he would still want the entire Galaxy to be a harmonious Tizca under his power.

[Kite Senet]

I wouldn't go so far as to dislike McNeill's detailed writing style categorically, though I do prefer French over McNeill for the Thousand Sons. In contrast, McNeill's Iron Warriors novels, and especially Storm of Iron, were superb writing in my opinion; in that book, I felt the detail that you note McNeill seems to compulsively add to his writing really added to the narrative. The siege and trench warfare tactics he wrote of, including the concern of enfilading fire, accurate trench and fortress warfare terminology, and intricately detailing the particular geometric concerns with respect to artillery fire and defense that the Iron Warriors in the novel face; in that case, those details really pull you into that world of siege warfare.

 

Overall I think McNeill has less of an opportunity to exploit his ability to engross the reader in a world using tons of intricate, realistic detail when he's writing about a legion of sorcerers than when he's writing about a legion dedicated to siege warfare. If this comparison makes any sense: McNeill captures a scene in detail like Albrecht Dürer, but can miss out on the "magic" of a scene, whereas John French writes like Johannes Vermeer, drawing in those details which are important while also brilliantly capturing the overall "magic" of the scene. And while the Iron Warriors live in the details of the 40k universe, the Thousand Sons live in the "magic."

[bozo69pd]

Wow that was exceptionally worded Senet. I applaud you. I actually forgot to think about the Iron Warriors omnibus which I did in fact enjoy very much. I will amend my statement here to agree with you that McNeill's style meshes perfectly with Iron Warriors.

[Heliomanes]

I understand the criticism of Crimson King, but not liking McNeill's style at all? A Thousand Sons is terrific, and does a great job in establishing a Legion culture. He seems to struggle more with grand narratives, in my opinion, but the world- and culture building is fantastic. A huge part of that must be how he, in A Thousand Sons, actually draws from occult and magical organizations from real life, like the Argentum Astra, and reinterprets some of their practices and philosophies (even copies the entire grade structure). That takes dedicated research and a grasp of the "central point" of an abstract principle like the sephiroth, body of light, daimon, dweller at the treshold und so weiter.

[Kite Senet]

Huh. I can't say I caught that context; I kinda just assumed those titles were funny made-up names rather than funny made-up real world names. That said, I always visualized the Thousand Sons of the Horus Heresy era more as scientists investigating the arcane geometries of the Warp rather than full-blown occultists; AA titles seem a bit anachronistic to me.

More important than either occultism or warp-science is the Thousand Sons's Hope: whether that be to save the legion from the flesh-change, or to save the Imperium from Horus's treachery, Hope is at the heart and soul of the Thousand Sons. And it is this Hope which the highly detailed style of Graham McNeill fails to fully capture, and where French succeeds in the Ahriman trilogy.

I'm not saying A Thousand Sons is bad. It's still a good novel, no matter how much the remembrancers drive me up a wall, and (if I understand the chronology correctly) it was key in establishing the psychological framework that French elaborates on with Ahriman. But I can't agree that The Crimson King is weaker, and furthermore I definitely think French's writing is the pinnacle of the Thousand Sons's library.

 

[Edit] I started reading through my old ragged copy of A Thousand Sons for a third time now, this time highlighting the page edge corresponding to text with the remembrancers either yellow (if it's irrelevant to the T-Sons) or blue (if it's somehow relevant). I'm through the first four chapters now...I think I should've just highlighted pure T-Sons story segments, since highlighting every single line of chapter four was exhausting, especially since only about a page at the start and a page at the end is actually relevant to the T-Sons.

[Heliomanes]

We have a very different outlook on things then, which of course is fine. I'm interested in esotericism and find it more realistic that magicians of the future are influenced by magicians of the past, rather than just being scientists. Not that there's anything bad about scientists, but it falls into a similar trope of the alchemists being "proto-scientists" which is reductionistic, and more importantly for a story - removes some of the inherent flavor and interest in the subject.

I disagree on hope. A Thousand Sons lays the groundwork and almost "creates" the Legion, which French et al use as a jumping off point (more successfully than what's being done in the Crimson King imho), but it also shows us just how far they are willing to go to "make things right", and makes that flaw (or strength!) nuanced and believable - which is what makes them so good and believable villains.

You also seem to dislike the focus on the remembrancers in this story. I loved it, just like I really loved Abnett's "Legion" which has a similar focus - relying heavily on human characters. I can understand that this is very subjective though.

[Skerr]

I was listening to the audio book of A Thousand Sons on You Tube while painting. While I was intrigued overall I believe I would enjoy reading it rather than listening to a voice actor ( an accomplished one at that) creating different voices for everyone including the women. Seems to take me out of it. I think only about half the book is on You Tube to I did not get past the part where they take on the Titans. While I found the Lemuel subplot interesting I too thought a lot of time was spent on the remembrancers. Having read this thread I decided to check out more reviews last night on A Thousand Sons and am considering picking it up. Figured I read this, then Crimson King and segue in the the Ahriman trilogy.

 

Reading though cuts into my painting time, lol. (Fiction anyway)

[Kite Senet]

No reference to alchemy was intended. With respect to "scientists" I suppose I more specifically consider the Horus Heresy Thousand Sons akin to mathematicians. In a sense, at their best, the Thousand Sons were like Pythagoreans who have actually managed to tap into and manipulate the world of ideal Forms (the Warp) in order to effect the world around them; and, the way I see it at least, their descent into heretical, occult numerology was less intrinsic to the Thousand Sons's essence, and more a symptom of their rapid fall into Tzeentch's grasp. They themselves had been extracted from a legion rife with the flesh-change, against the wishes of those closed-minded enough to consign the XVth to destruction; how could they then be so closed-minded as to consign the writings of the human diaspora to the torch, when there remained the hope of good things, a kernel of truth, to be extracted from even the most absurd occult writings?

 

But full disclosure, I am a mathematician, and I might be writing my obsession into the story a bit. (That said, the existence of Ignis and the Order of Ruin somewhat validates the notion that the Thousand Sons and their use of the warp do have mathematical leanings, even after the Heresy! Ignis might also play into my preference for French's writing as well.)

 

I was okay with the mortal elements of the Horus Rising trilogy, but A Thousand Sons's remembrancers were in particular disagreeable to me. I could deal with them on read-through 1 until the Zappening of Eris happened and I realized McNeill had spent so much of my time on them, nearly half of the early book and a huge chunk of the rest, just to have their entire existence amount to nearly nothing of consequence (until The Crimson King).

 

Not really Beast of Calth spoilers but warning has been supplied:

Oh, and speaking about math stuff...I just got to the end of Beast of Calth, Iron Warriors Omnibus pp 587-588...does McNeill *know* what the word "logarithm" means? He throws around "topological mixing", "predictive logarithm", "exact logarithmic proof", a "world of calculus, algebra, and calm, ordered arithmetic" and it causes me nigh infinite cringe. I mean, I appreciate the shout out to topology, but...what the heck does some abstract property in ergodic theory, which is itself just a generalization of a more typical mixing property which would be far more appropriate for any sort of real-valued data, have to do with..."the function of systems in a constantly varied-state environment"? I mean that at least could stretch into something that makes sense, but I cannot wrap my brain around his silly use of the word "logarithm".

[Kite Senet]

I was listening to the audio book of A Thousand Sons on You Tube while painting.  While I was intrigues overall I believe I would enjoy reading it rather than listening to a voice actor ( an accomplished one at that) creating different voices for everyone including the women.  Seems to take me out of it.  I think only about half the book is on You Tube to I did not get past the part where they take on the Titans.    While I found the Lemuel subplot interesting I too though a lot of time was spent on them.  Having read this thread I decided to check out more reviews last night  on A Thousand Sons and am considering picking it up.  Figured I read this, then Crimson King and segue in the the Ahriman trilogy.  

 

Reading though cuts into my painting time, lol. (Fiction anyway)

 

No, Skerr! Don't read this thread! You'll spoil the book for yourself! Shoo! Come back when you've finished the book! (I might be negative and nitpicky but it's still worth reading and enjoying for yourself!)

[bozo69pd]

Skerr reading is the true exercise of the brain!

 

By the way guys I am not saying McNeill's writing is bad by any stretch, just that it often rubs me the wrong way somehow. Reading the Nightlords omnibus, Word Bearer omnibus, Daemon World I finished these books incredibly quickly. Whenever I pick up a McNeill novel it takes me months to finish for some reason.

[Skerr]

Oops, I attempted to clarify that reading "fiction" cuts into my painting time, lol.

 

I'm an HR Dir specializing in leadership development and as a result my team and I are constantly reading leadership and self help books (not always my choice). I like a lot of history as well. As a FT dad and husband my personal leisure time is limited and rotates for a few weeks between painting minis, watching movies on home theater or video game play (which I do a lot less of lately) and wish I had more time for reading fiction. In my youth I used to read a lot Bernard Cornwell (historical fiction) and of course a lot of sci fi/ fantasy novels, way too many Conan pastiche authors, ha ha I fell for the Frazetta covers every time.

 

I started reading this thread because I had not planned to read 40k fiction and wanted some backstory but am now inspired to do so. The Director of Ops I work with reads a lot of 40k fiction and has recommended a couple as well. So even though I read some spoilers here and know the big picture I believe I will still enjoy the content and detail.

 

I have always enjoyed "Science or Magic" discussions, Math or Myth, seeing different points of view on the subject. Is the tech so advanced it is indecipherable from magic in some ways? It's why I like Ad Mech as a concept (I don't play or own ad mech btw) as they embrace both or maybe worship and give a mini magical quality to their philosophy. Even the Ancient One called spells programs so that Strange could relate... Semantics and incantations or Scientific Method and procedure? Some might say both.

But now I am crossing into other properties and off topic. It is fun to read what regular posters gigs and side hustles are in life. Offers neat insight to people's posts but that is the HR in me Haw, Haw!

[bozo69pd]

Well Skerr I will tell you Thousand Sons have some of if not THE best storyline, drama, and characters in the 40k universe. I gobble up every scrap of lore that I can.

[Heliomanes]

No reference to alchemy was intended. With respect to "scientists" I suppose I more specifically consider the Horus Heresy Thousand Sons akin to mathematicians. In a sense, at their best, the Thousand Sons were like Pythagoreans who have actually managed to tap into and manipulate the world of ideal Forms (the Warp) in order to effect the world around them; and, the way I see it at least, their descent into heretical, occult numerology was less intrinsic to the Thousand Sons's essence, and more a symptom of their rapid fall into Tzeentch's grasp. They themselves had been extracted from a legion rife with the flesh-change, against the wishes of those closed-minded enough to consign the XVth to destruction; how could they then be so closed-minded as to consign the writings of the human diaspora to the torch, when there remained the hope of good things, a kernel of truth, to be extracted from even the most absurd occult writings?

 

But full disclosure, I am a mathematician, and I might be writing my obsession into the story a bit. (That said, the existence of Ignis and the Order of Ruin somewhat validates the notion that the Thousand Sons and their use of the warp do have mathematical leanings, even after the Heresy! Ignis might also play into my preference for French's writing as well.)

 

I was okay with the mortal elements of the Horus Rising trilogy, but A Thousand Sons's remembrancers were in particular disagreeable to me. I could deal with them on read-through 1 until the Zappening of Eris happened and I realized McNeill had spent so much of my time on them, nearly half of the early book and a huge chunk of the rest, just to have their entire existence amount to nearly nothing of consequence (until The Crimson King).

Well, the Pythagoreans were occultists and esotericists, so there's no conflicts between the two. Modern day esotericists commonly see Pythagoras and Plato as their forebears, and modern scholarship on the subject tends to agree with them. The enlightenment project of "removing" the mystical and esoteric core from even greek philosophy is at best misleading. Try reading Plato's Timæus. It's the first instance in the western tradition which posits a creator god, which alone merits a read, but also "astral gods" etc.

 

Haha, well, on reading yourself into the story; I teach religious studies and philosophy - and wrote my master thesis on the practice of astral projection in modern esoteric groups, so we're in the same boat there. When A Thousand Sons referenced the rich world of esotericism it kind of opened up a deep, wide and rewarding world of references to me and made the Thousand Sons nuanced and beliavable due to the background I read into it. I shouldn't be surprised if others have a differing experience due in part to a different background.

[Kelborn]

Well Skerr I will tell you Thousand Sons have some of if not THE best storyline, drama, and characters in the 40k universe. I gobble up every scrap of lore that I can.

You mean besides the Scars. ;)

 

ATS was great. First HH novel I really enjoyed. Master of Prospero was ok. Have to read Crimson King and Ahriman Omnibus but my expectations are high for the latter.

[Kite Senet]

I would agree that esotericists would consider themselves the successors of the mysticism of the Pythagoreans, but I'm less convinced that Pythagorean mysticism genuinely crossed the line into anything resembling occultism. Perhaps I am ignorant on the matter, but I've always considered the actions of the Pythagoreans--the early Pythagoreans at least--to be primarily good-faith attempts at interpreting the world around them using the most powerful tool they had, mathematics, and clearly communicating those ideas through philosophy to others, while...well, again, perhaps this is ignorant, but when reading about occult/esoteric subjects like The Book of the Law, I can't help but conclude the fellow just made up a bunch of cryptic nonsense to pretend to have special insight. This view of the modern esotericist as a huckster of philosophy certainly colors that perspective on the Thousand Sons in a decidedly negative light in my mind, even if it might be more accurate than I'd want to admit.

 

(Sorry if this seems excessively negative towards a topic you're passionate about; I know I get frustrated whenever I hear someone assert that mathematics is useless or "when am I ever going to need this?" but I can't help but have a negative view towards modern esotericism. On the other hand, at least, *ancient* mysticism is pretty cool--heck, I picked my warlord Exalted Sorcerer Senet's name specifically as an allusion to that Egyptian game's theme about passing into the afterlife, suggesting his objective of fixing the Rubric so that the dust bunnies can actually live and die and pass into the afterlife. Also because I love backgammon. And also because I love the TV show Lost.)

[Heliomanes]

Well, if your differentiation between ancient and modern esotericists / occultists is simply based on a subjective view on what's a good faith attempt or not, then there's not much left to say in this discussion. I'm a bit sad, and you clash with modern scholarship on both the pythagoreans and the thelemites you reference, but it's certainly your right to have such an opinion and I won't try to influence it. Thanks for the chat.

Edit: I reread this post and it comes off as far more condescending and passive-aggressive than I intended, and I would like to apologize. I need to get a thicker skin on these issues, and since english is a secondary language for me, I tend to have some difficulties with the tone of what I'm writing. Hope you can see past that. You seem like fine fellows.

[Kite Senet]

Nah, it's okay. I kinda got carried away there; it's always fun for me to sit down and think about a topic that I haven't really pondered before. I suppose this has mostly been rampantly off-topic, hasn't it?

[Skerr]

Seems It was grounded in each others perspective of how 1k Sons scholars might perceive manipulating the warp and was incredibly insightful and civil.  

[Heliomanes]

I quite enjoy learning more about you guys and the things you are passionate about. We all have different backgrounds, and share some common interests, and it's fun exploring both the commonalities and the differences.

Btw - if you want to ponder about these things a bit more, the "secret history of western esotericism" podcast is incredibly well done, and made by scholars on the subject. The focus is largely on antiquity. I think you'll at the very least enjoy the episodes on Pythagoreanism, Kite Senet. You can find it here: https://shwep.net/

[Kite Senet]

I quite enjoy learning more about you guys and the things you are passionate about. We all have different backgrounds, and share some common interests, and it's fun exploring both the commonalities and the differences.

 

Btw - if you want to ponder about these things a bit more, the "secret history of western esotericism" podcast is incredibly well done, and made by scholars on the subject. The focus is largely on antiquity. I think you'll at the very least enjoy the episodes on Pythagoreanism, Kite Senet. You can find it here: https://shwep.net/

 

Ah, stellar! I was actually going to ask you if you had any good resources on the matter. (Well, specifically, I was gonna ask if you had any recommendations for Pythagorean writings, since I have a great fondness for going directly to primary sources, but since I should probably be spending my time typing up lecture notes for the Calculus class I'm teaching this summer, a podcast would actually work out quite a bit better.)

[bozo69pd]

I feel like that was a parallel as to how different Thousand Sons discipline schools (Raptora, Corvidae, Pyrae, etc.) might discuss and argue with eachother.