Where to start with DKOK and AM?

[thatothertyler]

Hello everyone! I'm a returning player to 40k and I'm looking at starting up a Death Korps/Astra Militarum army.  Currently I'm in the process of selling off my Blood Angels to help pay for my new army.  What I'm wanting to do is start a new army around 2500 points.  I'm planning on using as many Death Korps models as possible and would like to be able to use them as much as possible in a standard list.  Basically  I'm wanting to switch between playing either DKOK or codex Astra Militarum.  I'm unsure of where to begin other than just guardsmen.  Especially when it comes to the DKOK units, I'm unsure of what units are actually worth taking.  Would any DKOK vets beable to offer any advice?

[WarriorFish]

Welcome to the B&C and back to the hobby :tu: We have a fair few Kriegers in the barracks who will be able to offer more detailed help, but I can say that there is understandably a lot of cross over so with Guardsmen, heavy weapons and Leman Russ tanks as examples you can do both books easily :tu:

[Danny Cyanide]

As far as stand out DKOK untie, you need not look further than Death Riders and Engineers. These two are by far the stand out units from the Krieg index.

[domsto]

Welcome back

I am not a big expert for DKoK but i can recommend Death Riders. they are really useful.

For normal Astra Militarum i can recommend:

The good old Leman Russ Tank(mostly the Battle cannon,Punisher,Executioner Variant. the rest is a little bit mehhh)

Scout Sentinels are perfect to block Alpha Strike Units (9" scout move before the Game)

Bullgryns they are Close Combat Monsters (And they wear Gas masks )

Basilisks are also a good take (they also fit well with the DKoK Thematic)

 

And as a little Tip, check out anvil industries if you are not afraid of using third Party Models. You will need a lot of Infantry and if you use Forge World only that can be quite expensive.

[thatothertyler]

Thanks for the replies! Danny and Domsto, you guys both recommended death riders.  What about them makes them a unit worth having in every game?  Do you use them more offensively like bringing them in behind your opponent and charging to take out things in their back line?  Or are they more for objective grabbing because of their high movement? 

 

I was originally going to get some of the earthshaker carriages but after comparing them to the Basilisk I don't see why I would choose the carriage over the Basilisk.  The carriage has less wounds and costs more points than the Basilisk.  The only positive about the carriage I'm seeing is that it's BS doesn't decrease as it is wounded. Imay get some carriages because I REALLY like how they look, but I think that the Basilisk is superior in almost every way correct?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have some familiarity with the DKoK list, so I can tell you which units I would stay away from. Not necessarily because they're bad, but because they don't cross over.

 

1) Wyverns

2) Manticores

3) Tauroxes

4) Flyers of any kind

5) Sentinels of any sort

6) Conscripts

7) Deathstrikes

 

These are probably the ones that you'll be tempted by. There's more, but these are the big ones. That said, you can always ally with regular guard for those toys you don't get. Elysians for Flyers, Tallarn for vehicles, Cadans for artillery, and Valhallans for conscripts. Death Riders are fantastic, and are really the only way to field cavalry, since they are the only ones with a Cavalry HQ. Death RIders have WS3+ and Sv4+ and 2 attacks (3 on the Sgt). That's 11 S5 AP-2 D d3 hits first turn from the rider, and an additional 10 S4 AP0 D1 hits from the steed. They are a brutal CC unit, and I've been considering using their rules for an Outrider detachment of Riders (made almost straight from Empire Pistoliers). 

 

The Krieg Storm Chimera is the only useful transport that crosses over (as the AC Gryphonne). The Centaur Assault Carrier is neat, but only carries 5 guys, and is of limited use, it doesn't cross over though. 

[Danny Cyanide]

Yeah, death riders are just really killy! Plus if you bring their command squad you can outflank it and up to 5 other death rider squads. They are really flexible, can be deployed front line, our held in reserve to strike where needed.

 

I'm running carriages for my earthshakers just because they are cooler than basilisks, and I'm willing to pay the 13 point bad ass tax. Plus, when you over pay for stuff, no one can get upset about you using cheesy over powered forge world stuff!

 

Engineers are just disgusting if you can get them close to enemy infantry/monsters, anything but vehicles. They are all armed with a wounding on 2+ 12 inch, 2 shot d2 weapon. No AP, but still pretty sweet. Kills you on a 6, but your hit still counts.

[Withershadow]

The carriage is not that bad. If you’re taking a full unit of 3, you get a 12-man Guard squad that can receive orders to shoot twice at 24”, and function as a built in bubble wrap that prevents stuff from landing behind you.

[Danny Cyanide]

Which I most certainly am taking! 2 cannons just doesn't look as good as 3!

[domsto]

About the Deathriders Danny Cyanide said everything i would have said to

 

I personally like the Basilisk more than the Earthshaker carriage for a couple of reasons

1. you also get a Heavy Bolter with the Basilisk which can be useful

2. the Basilisk is more resistant in my Opinion (a Basilisk can kill a Carriage but a Carriage can't kill a Basilisk)

3. If you manage to kill the crew of the carriage it becomes useless(Snipers are your biggest enemy)

4. the Point difference of 13p doesn't sound much but you could get almost 2 Plasma guns for it or some other Special Weapons.

5. The Basilisk can move. I know this one is depending on the situation but moving my Basilisks out of sign or away from Enemy CC Units saved my Ass a couple of times (better to hit on 5+ than get killed)

 

So if you want to go with efficiency use the Basilisk, but if you want to use Rule of Cool use the Carriage

[Tallarn Commander]

Domsto, you raise some excellent points. I use Bassies regularly in my Imperial Guard army and Earthshaker carriages regularly in my Renegades and Heretics army.

 

Both are solid units, but Basilisks are certainly more efficient, even with their degrading profiles. My Renegades stick to using the less impressive carriages because of the aforementioned rule of cool.

 

Note that my Earthshaker Carriages have never been killed by enemy shooting. They are way at the rear (whereas my Bassies love to advance to make end-game scrambles for objectives), aren't as psychologically threatening as self-propelled artillery, and often behind cover. So, based off of my experience, don't worry too much about carriages getting shot go death. My carriages have, however, been assaulted to death by Genestealer cultists, flyrants, Grey Knight robot thingies, Chapter Masters, and other assorted bad guys. In contrast, my Bassies are killed by enemy shooting from time to time.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

One thing to note, if you take a Master of Ordnance, he's only useful on Basilisks, not carriages. Since DKoK doesn't get Wyverns, Manticores, or Deathstrikes, he's all but useless. 

 

On the other hand if you take allies he's useful, bu he's got to be from the same regiment as your artillery.

[Withershadow]

One thing to note, if you take a Master of Ordnance, he's only useful on Basilisks, not carriages. Since DKoK doesn't get Wyverns, Manticores, or Deathstrikes, he's all but useless. .

Fixed.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

One thing to note, if you take a Master of Ordnance, he's only useful on Basilisks, not carriages. Since DKoK doesn't get Wyverns, Manticores, or Deathstrikes, he's all but useless. .

Fixed.

 

I mean, I play Cadians, so the MoO is useless to me. He still grant's rerolls of 1 to hit on other Doctrines, which isn't bad. His ability is almost pointless for krieg as he only buffs one unit. And if you're using multiple detachments, why wouldn't you use Cadians for your artillery?

 

I'll definitely say his abilities need revision to be good, and at all worth it.

 

The MoO's ability should be a barrage every turn, same -1 to hit if he can't see, and Cadia's doctrine needs to be revised so that MoO ability allows rerolled misses if the artillery didn't move. Additionally, a revision to state that the MoO's ability works on weapons not on vehicles (MoO's buffing HWS and FW artillery would be cool).

[Withershadow]

Due to his range limitation, he effectively buffs nothing.

[domsto]

I am of your opinion Withershadow the MoO is useless and must be reworked.

If i want to maximize my artillery i play Harker and the Catachan doctrine

[thatothertyler]

Hi everyone! Thank you so much for responding to my post and giving me some feedback.  I took some time and really gave some thought to what exactly I wanted to order and this is what I've come up with.  I feel like this is a little different than any other army I've ever started collecting mainly because of how I'm ordering it. I've decided I want to buy my army in two main steps.  Step one is going to be the Death Korps side of my army.  Step two will be codex guard units that I will slowly get.  Eventually I want to have an army that I can run as either DKOK or from the main astra militarum codex.  Step 1, my Death Korps models, will be the base of the force.  The only things that I will add will mainly be vehicles that I can paint and theme appropriately to fit the Death Korps theme. In total, I am wanting to order

 

2 hq command squads

2 command squads

80 infantry

1 quartermaster squad

1 commissar set

15 death riders

10 engineers

4 mars pattern leman russ tanks

3 executioner turrets for the leman russ tanks

3 las cannons heavy weapons teams

6 heavy bolter heavy weapons teams

3 earth shaker carriages and crew

 

I'm thinking this is a pretty good start to an awesome army! I'm planning on using 20 of the infantry as grenadiers. I'm also wanting to buy enough bits to make 14 plasma gunners.  So do you think this is an evenly balanced starting point?  I'm going to be placing this order in the next few days so please let me know what you think! Thank you guys so much!

[spafe]

I'd potentially switch 3 of those heavy bolters to autocannons, then you can get the platoon bundle and save some money, but I get autos are less effective I think than heavy bolters in current rules... but rules change

 

Also, having been reading up on a lot of historical gaming stuff recently, I really like the idea of just painting up some squads as a the grenadiers, I think that could look really cool.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

It's a real pity that FW discontinued the actual Grenadier Models.

[Kontakt]

It's a real pity that FW discontinued the actual Grenadier Models.

I was under the understanding they need to fix the moulds and that they will be back eventually.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

It's a real pity that FW discontinued the actual Grenadier Models.

I was under the understanding they need to fix the moulds and that they will be back eventually.

 

That makes sense, but it's still a shame.

[Danny Cyanide]

I'm eagerly awaiting their re-release myself!

[thatothertyler]

Thanks for the replies! I've made my order and will post an update as I start painting!