Archaeinox Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Just make it happen on a 4+ instead of 6. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5048905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kite Senet Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Just make it happen on a 4+ instead of 6. I agree with this solution. Minimal change mid-edition is desirable, so two major options present themselves: decrease the roll requirement or increase the range. Since I'm of the opinion that my Rubrics could mostly use the extra damage in close-range combat, I personally prefer the former option. Out of curiosity, is there any expected baseline for how many wounds per turn you should be able to squeeze out of a point? I mean, 5 points yielding an average of maybe a tops of 0.5-0.75 mortal wounds per game doesn't seem like much, but I'm curious as to how it stacks up to the standard fare. An odd comparison, I know, considering you usually have to invest in a package deal of extra wounds, bodies, and firepower rather than just a bit of extra raw damage, but I think the comparison would nonetheless be insightful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5048927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahzek451 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Personally, I think the mortal wound on a 6 is a cop out and kinda lazy. It feels like it should be something that adds a bonus rule to the squad like....ignore cover when shooting. Or daresay, wounds of 6 adds a mortal wound. Probably needs a point increase for the last one haha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5048959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skerr Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I do like the idea of something that is a constant benefit or bonus other than a chance of success. I have used icons in 3 open play games. I ran two 10 man squads (MCU not for me right now) and 1 or 2 units of Tzangoors all with the Icon. It averaged around 2 mortal wounds the entire game so while it's cool when it goes off when you can take them at open play buffet but it needs more utility or reliability. I suppose a 4+ would be aright, I might even pay 10 points for that. Lots of interesting ideas here that likely reflect personal metas or the mainstream competitive scene (LVO and such). Icon has always been tepid would be great to make it truly useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5049316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I like the idea about rerolling wounds and someway. Unlike most marine armies, we have zero ways of making that happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5049342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahzek451 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Ooooo I wouldnt mind if it allowed re-rolls of 1 to wound. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5049406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are Verlo Posted April 6, 2018 Author Share Posted April 6, 2018 A lot of good suggestion here gents/ladies. I have a few random thoughts about some of the ideas. If the IoF grants some kind of reroll or extra damage to shooting attacks it would be useless to tzaangors. But then on the other hand if it triggers off hit rolls or to wound rolls of 6+, then the tzaangors get much more dice to roll (given a full mob/flock) and most likely much more extra damage/mortal wounds/what ever triggers off the 6+ roll. If it is related to close combat, then the rubric marines gets to roll 1 attack per marine and the aspriring sorceror makes 2 attacks? Not a lot of dice and those few getting 6+ will most likely not contribute that much to a close combat. BUT I would love almost any change to the current rules. As written now the IoF is 5 wasted points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5049601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 That's why I'd like to see a +1 to wound. It's very unique across all factions, is universal in it's usefulness over all units involved, and assists in making elite units attack stick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5049681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are Verlo Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 True, but flat out +1 to wound is incredibly powerful and the IoF would cost alot more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5049854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skerr Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Reroll of 1s to wound would be worth what? 10-15? Or is 5 to cheap? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5049881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 While I agree in most armies it should be expensive, +1 to wound on our already expensive Rubrics for 5 points would make it balance the total point value across the unit. I could see Tzaangors being an issue for sure though. RR 1's seems to be safest without a major points adjustment and could provide much needed aura variety if they went that route. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5049968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal van Trapp Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 What if it was an "all models within 6" can reroll any to wound rolls of 1"? Make it so you don't have to bring one in every squad but you have to position them very carefully! That could balance it for only 5 points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5050046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kite Senet Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 What if it was an "all models within 6" can reroll any to wound rolls of 1"? Make it so you don't have to bring one in every squad but you have to position them very carefully! That could balance it for only 5 points "Models within 6"" would mean the icon would often not even cover one whole unit, especially for 20-mans Rubrics or 30-mans Tzaangors. It'd be obnoxious to have to roll the entire icon-covered subset of each unit separately. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5050061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal van Trapp Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 True but if we're talking leaving it at 5 points I can see it working like that, if it were "a unit which includes an icon of flame may reroll wound rolls of 1" then I can see them increasing the cost Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5050077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahzek451 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Leaving it at 5 points seems moot since we are already wishlisting changing the rule, then points can change too. Especially the points haha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5050094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 If it was an aura it'd probably be worded as as any unit within 6" of the icon so it'd depend on repositioning it as you move the unit. Either way, I think GK/TS definitely need an adjustment. Hopefully CA will address these issues with a few adjustments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5050135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Slightly off topic, but SOT’s base cost needs to drop too! All is dust is not worth as much as the developers seem to think on a model with a Native 2+. Ignoring heavy weapons penalties is cool, but it’s still overcosted. I’ve also never rolled a 4++ on them as it would only come up if attacked by a -4 AP weapon with one damage and I don’t think those exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5050186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kite Senet Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Huh. Actually, I wonder if the Icon of Flame would be a good way to get around the new Smite rule and squeeze in a bit of extra psyker-hate defense too: "Units within 6" of a model carrying an Icon of Flame may ignore modifiers on psychic tests." "May", so that Ahriman and Magnus don't *have* to ignore their casting bonuses, but they can ignore negative modifiers if they're either under heavy psychic suppression or they're like the 10th guy casting Smite that turn. I like the idea, but it doesn't do any immediate good for Tzaangors, or for normal CSM, so I'm not convinced it's a perfect solution. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5050200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiñaColada Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Or keep it as is and just make it a free upgrade. It's not like that would make rubrics overpowered and they'd potentially get an "extra" psychic attack Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5051899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 That would probably the most boring 'change'. Getting something useless for free is still ... useless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5051944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 That would probably the most boring 'change'. Getting something useless of limited use for free is still ... useless something of limited use for free. FTFY I agree that one wound on a 6+ is not very useful, but getting it for free is still marginally better than paying for it. I know this is kind of besides the point of this thread, but why can't aspiring sorcerers take melta bombs? I think that would be a more useful upgrade Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5051960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiñaColada Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 That would probably the most boring 'change'. Getting something useless for free is still ... useless. Sure, it wouldn't be the most fun change in the world. But, since all it would require is a point change it feels like one of the more likely option in my opinion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/345940-what-would-make-icon-of-flame-worth-any-points-at-all/page/2/#findComment-5051976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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