Praetorian of Dorn Spoiler Question (For those who read!)

[Izlude]

So I am re-reading this one and since it involves the Alpha Legion, of course there will be questions but really only one thing I am still confused about:

 

The whole Silonius and Alpharius thing. I have read various sources to make sure I have this straight but for some reason I still find it confusing. Does this sound right?

 

1. Via either warp fun/drinking blood they essentially swap bodies so that Silonius is in Alpharius's body and Alpharius now is in Silonius's body. This seems to be the case as it alludes to the ritual of this happening.

 

2. Assuming this is correct, it is in fact Alpharius on Terra with Silonius's memories when he awakens in storage and goes about his mission. So part of the reason he kick's everyone's ass is that he is a Primarch and has the Pale Spear (or at least parts of it). Since they all look alike, none is the wiser there is a Primarch on terra

 

3. Silonius's body with Alpharius's memories (or whatever) is back on the Alpha Battle Barge doing the leading

 

4. So through the story they start to revert back to themself

 

Whoo...I hope that came out correct but not sure if this is correct. 

 

PS: Don't even get me started on my confusion as to why Alpharius was trying to parley with the most inflexible of all Primarchs. Really you want to talk down Dorn who is the king of stick up their butt (I actually like Dorn and the IF alot...but still...)

[rendingon1+]

4 x Yes.

P.S. IF fanservice at the expense of plot and AL primarch. Though both IF and AL were awesome.

[Kelborn]

Alpharius brain was imprinted with Silonius' personality.

 

Silonius stayed the same, playing his role as the ALs fleetmaster.

 

No body swap shenanigans.

 

Alpharius tried to show Dorn his weaknesses in order to improve and to show that he (Alpharius is still loyal but he has his reasons.) He thought that he could convince Dorn from his pov, as well.

[Heliomanes]

This story was so frustratingly handled. Especially the stuff added in to show that "no, really, he's totally dead you guys" - which both messes with the unreliable narrator perspectives we're used to in Black Library fluff, and the joy of coming up with alternative interpretations of the depicted events, which is the bread and butter of the Alpha Legion fanbase. I found the execution clumsy and even actively working against my enjoyment of and immersion in the setting. The ideas themselves were fine though, in my opinion.

[Manchu warlord]

That's pretty it much, they just did a little mind-swap.

 

This book is definitely one of the more harder to understand. I to read the chapter twice where the rebels had planned to have the orbital plate to crash.

 

This book really, reminds of Know No Fear, but with less action and more of police work.

[Jareddm]

This story was so frustratingly handled. Especially the stuff added in to show that "no, really, he's totally dead you guys" - which both messes with the unreliable narrator perspectives we're used to in Black Library fluff, and the joy of coming up with alternative interpretations of the depicted events, which is the bread and butter of the Alpha Legion fanbase. I found the execution clumsy and even actively working against my enjoyment of and immersion in the setting. The ideas themselves were fine though, in my opinion.

 

The Alpha Legion needed a nice hard smack of certainty in their legion.  For years there has literally been nothing that could stop the Alpha Legion from doing anything they wanted.  Because everything about them was nebulous, they could pull out any trick at any time.

 

 

Alpharius tried to show Dorn his weaknesses in order to improve and to show that he (Alpharius is still loyal but he has his reasons.) He thought that he could convince Dorn from his pov, as well.

 

This to me is the key to the Alpha Legion's downfall.  The hubris of Alpharius (which has its roots in all the old lore).  You don't ever tell him, "This is impossible," even if it is.  And if there were a primarch to prove an impossibility, it would be Dorn.

[rendingon1+]

The Alpha Legion needed a nice hard smack of certainty in their legion. For years there has literally been nothing that could stop the Alpha Legion from doing anything they wanted. Because everything about them was nebulous, they could pull out any trick at any time.

 

Do what they want? Hm...

Legion - AL introducton of questionable quality. No big AL Victory.

Deliverence Lost - AL infiltrating RG might count as one.

Serpent beneath - AL infighting.

Seventh Serpent - AL infighting and few IH killed.

Scars/Wolf King - AL harrows the Wolves until DA arrive and give them pounding/AL tries to block WS and fail.

 

Does not look like a victory spree to me.

And if any Legion that does "well" needs a smack in a form of killing their primarch in a dumbest way possible then well...

Besides I remember PoD pre release talk form BL, which was like: yeah, we know IF had no books yet and Dorn didn't even kill anyone until Terra, but Hey! We'll give you a book where Dorn kills stuff! And what stuff wink wink.

 

Fan service and bad writing.

[ninjasuperspy]

 

The Alpha Legion needed a nice hard smack of certainty in their legion. For years there has literally been nothing that could stop the Alpha Legion from doing anything they wanted. Because everything about them was nebulous, they could pull out any trick at any time.

Do what they want? Hm...

Legion - AL introducton of questionable quality. No big AL Victory.

Deliverence Lost - AL infiltrating RG might count as one.

Serpent beneath - AL infighting.

Seventh Serpent - AL infighting and few IH killed.

Scars/Wolf King - AL harrows the Wolves until DA arrive and give them pounding/AL tries to block WS and fail.

 

Does not look like a victory spree to me.

And if any Legion that does "well" needs a smack in a form of killing their primarch in a dumbest way possible then well...

Besides I remember PoD pre release talk form BL, which was like: yeah, we know IF had no books yet and Dorn didn't even kill anyone until Terra, but Hey! We'll give you a book where Dorn kills stuff! And what stuff wink wink.

 

Fan service and bad writing.

 

 

Haha don't forget Tallarn where we accomplish basically nothing then get absolutely massacred.

 

The worst part about the whole thing (and the real tragedy) is had Alpharius done the same exact thing with the same exact rigmarole then did his little turn on the catwalk in front of Malcador instead Dorn would have been demoted to cleaning toilets instantaneously.

 

Hand to god I honestly think Black Library may have forgotten that the loyalists are supposed to, you know, lose ground up until the Siege. What's the last book in the series where the Loyalist side actually & unambiguously loses? Pythos?

[carlisimo]

I still don’t get what Alpharius was trying to achieve. Not in this book nor any previous one. Like I’ve said elsewhere, that’s fine for antagonists but it kept me from starting an Alpha Legion army.

 

I look forward to Omegon’s story. If it receives any more clarity, it has the potential to be really interesting.

[1ncarnadine]

I still don’t get what Alpharius was trying to achieve. Not in this book nor any previous one. Like I’ve said elsewhere, that’s fine for antagonists but it kept me from starting an Alpha Legion army.

 

I look forward to Omegon’s story. If it receives any more clarity, it has the potential to be really interesting.

 

It doesn't matter. He could have been working for the Cabal, the Warmaster, himself, the Emperor, whatever. He could have been trying to talk to Dorn, trying to kill Dorn, trying to cripple Dorn, to prove a point, or maybe he had something to say and just got carried away challenging himself against Dorn. It doesn't matter. The way he chose to do things (or was compelled to, or made to, whatever), to be over-complicated and overly secretive, led his face straight into Storm's Teeth. That was the point.

[Morovir]

 

 

The Alpha Legion needed a nice hard smack of certainty in their legion. For years there has literally been nothing that could stop the Alpha Legion from doing anything they wanted. Because everything about them was nebulous, they could pull out any trick at any time.

Do what they want? Hm...

Legion - AL introducton of questionable quality. No big AL Victory.

Deliverence Lost - AL infiltrating RG might count as one.

Serpent beneath - AL infighting.

Seventh Serpent - AL infighting and few IH killed.

Scars/Wolf King - AL harrows the Wolves until DA arrive and give them pounding/AL tries to block WS and fail.

 

Does not look like a victory spree to me.

And if any Legion that does "well" needs a smack in a form of killing their primarch in a dumbest way possible then well...

Besides I remember PoD pre release talk form BL, which was like: yeah, we know IF had no books yet and Dorn didn't even kill anyone until Terra, but Hey! We'll give you a book where Dorn kills stuff! And what stuff wink wink.

 

Fan service and bad writing.

 

 

Haha don't forget Tallarn where we accomplish basically nothing then get absolutely massacred.

 

The worst part about the whole thing (and the real tragedy) is had Alpharius done the same exact thing with the same exact rigmarole then did his little turn on the catwalk in front of Malcador instead Dorn would have been demoted to cleaning toilets instantaneously.

 

Hand to god I honestly think Black Library may have forgotten that the loyalists are supposed to, you know, lose ground up until the Siege. What's the last book in the series where the Loyalist side actually & unambiguously loses? Pythos?

 

Old Earth?

 

The Iron Hands abandon their warleader and essentially secede from the war. I don't see how that could be construed as a victory under any circumstance.

[Kelborn]

Wolfsbane

Old Earth

Path of Heaven wasn't really that of a victory. The Scars' retreat was successfull, yes but overall they had to retreat and gave up their position.

Master of Mankind, they had to abandon the webway project

 

Just those, which popped up immediately.

[ninjasuperspy]

 

Old Earth?

 

 

The Iron Hands abandon their warleader and essentially secede from the war. I don't see how that could be construed as a victory under any circumstance.

 

 

No kidding? I tell you I was sleeping on Old Earth because I thought it was an anthology for some reason.

[Morovir]

No. It essentially wraps up the Vulkan and Shattered Legions plotlines.

[ninjasuperspy]

No. It essentially wraps up the Vulkan and Shattered Legions plotlines.

 

Whoops that's my bad. I contracted Imperium Secundis Fatigue (the source of my "Why won't you stop WINNING??" whining) so I've been reading non-Warhammer books for a few months now. Need to swing back in I guess.

[Damon Nightman]

 

 

 

The Alpha Legion needed a nice hard smack of certainty in their legion. For years there has literally been nothing that could stop the Alpha Legion from doing anything they wanted. Because everything about them was nebulous, they could pull out any trick at any time.

Do what they want? Hm...

Legion - AL introducton of questionable quality. No big AL Victory.

Deliverence Lost - AL infiltrating RG might count as one.

Serpent beneath - AL infighting.

Seventh Serpent - AL infighting and few IH killed.

Scars/Wolf King - AL harrows the Wolves until DA arrive and give them pounding/AL tries to block WS and fail.

 

Does not look like a victory spree to me.

And if any Legion that does "well" needs a smack in a form of killing their primarch in a dumbest way possible then well...

Besides I remember PoD pre release talk form BL, which was like: yeah, we know IF had no books yet and Dorn didn't even kill anyone until Terra, but Hey! We'll give you a book where Dorn kills stuff! And what stuff wink wink.

 

Fan service and bad writing.

Haha don't forget Tallarn where we accomplish basically nothing then get absolutely massacred.

 

The worst part about the whole thing (and the real tragedy) is had Alpharius done the same exact thing with the same exact rigmarole then did his little turn on the catwalk in front of Malcador instead Dorn would have been demoted to cleaning toilets instantaneously.

 

Hand to god I honestly think Black Library may have forgotten that the loyalists are supposed to, you know, lose ground up until the Siege. What's the last book in the series where the Loyalist side actually & unambiguously loses? Pythos?

Can you elaborate on how dorn would have been cleaning toilets? I havent read it but love spoilers!

[Moonreaper666]

Alpharius only to lost to Dorn due to one of his Fists saving him

 

 

(Dorn's death would certainly hurt the Loyalists a lot)

 

 

And the fact that the Alpha Legion ain't as crazy as Warsmith Shontu

 

 

(Astropath + Space Hulk = FTL Weapon capable of destroying Holy Terra)

 

 

Had the Alpha Legion FTL-Space Hulked Terra, Horus would have won

 

 

 

The Alpha Legion once killed 100 billion people in a single year using biological weapons

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think if Alphy could do it all over again he would not try to brush his teeth with that big old nasty Chainsword.

[mc warhammer]

 could alpharius "live on" in his men through imprinting memories/mind swaps?

[1ncarnadine]

Very possibly, or at the very least his attitude and mind set will live on. Or maybe Fabius bred them some spare Primarch bodies. They certainly had augmented Legionaries that could appear as big as a Primarch. 

[Damon Nightman]

Maybe aplpharius didnt want horus to "win?"

[Moonreaper666]

Maybe aplpharius didnt want horus to "win?"

Both Twins had doubts as to whether they wanted the Traitors and Loyalists to win?

[mc warhammer]

 

PS: Don't even get me started on my confusion as to why Alpharius was trying to parley with the most inflexible of all Primarchs. Really you want to talk down Dorn who is the king of stick up their butt (I actually like Dorn and the IF alot...but still...)

 

dorn wouldn't be on the top of my list either but the way i'm reading it is that alpharius' personal neediness/desire to prove himself to dorn overrode his sense (even rational people can become obsessive about things to their detriment).

 

that and dorn's obvious position as praetorian of terra.

 

(i'll add that none of the primarchs seem to be particularly good at swaying each other. beyond horus' initial rebellion of 9 legions, everyone seems to be constantly trying to talk each other round with 0% success)

[mc warhammer]

Very possibly, or at the very least his attitude and mind set will live on. Or maybe Fabius bred them some spare Primarch bodies. They certainly had augmented Legionaries that could appear as big as a Primarch. 

 

i wasn't even imagining remaking alpharius within a cloned body (those seem to just inherit memories anyway) or a primarch-stand-in astartes, though those are all possibilities...but even passing alpharius' mind from operator to operator as a way of keeping him "alive" for the legion itself, with alpharius constantly being reborn or revitalised in each generation. sometimes he could be an average AL legionary, others a human operative (if that's possible within the mechanism of this mind transfer thingy).

 

i don't even know if i like the idea, but the possibility of it struck me thanks to the op

[mc warhammer]

 

I still don’t get what Alpharius was trying to achieve. Not in this book nor any previous one. Like I’ve said elsewhere, that’s fine for antagonists but it kept me from starting an Alpha Legion army.

 

I look forward to Omegon’s story. If it receives any more clarity, it has the potential to be really interesting.

 

It doesn't matter. He could have been working for the Cabal, the Warmaster, himself, the Emperor, whatever. He could have been trying to talk to Dorn, trying to kill Dorn, trying to cripple Dorn, to prove a point, or maybe he had something to say and just got carried away challenging himself against Dorn. It doesn't matter. The way he chose to do things (or was compelled to, or made to, whatever), to be over-complicated and overly secretive, led his face straight into Storm's Teeth. That was the point.

 

 

 

i think curiosity over alpharius and omegon's thinking is still allowed (and definitely encouraged by the authors) even if it wasn't the main point of the novel.