Praetorian of Dorn Spoiler Question (For those who read!)

[Fire Golem]

Maybe aplpharius didnt want horus to "win?"

Well, what I read from it was that Alpharius wanted to show Dorn the weakness in his defences that could be exploited in the Siege. But then it had always looked in the previous books that if indeed the twins were split in their loyalties, Omegon was the ‘loyalist’ brother. As with everything AL, it’s hard to tell.

[MarineRaider]

Interesting in HH49   SPOILER!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Russ comments as he is leaving Terra that Dorn is finally breaking down the orbital plates and wondered why he is doing it so late.

[Orwell84]

Interesting in HH49   SPOILER!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Russ comments as he is leaving Terra that Dorn is finally breaking down the orbital plates and wondered why he is doing it so late.

 

Is that connected with PoD? Or just another aspect of 'grim siege preparations as Horus looms ever closer...'

[Xisor]

Jesus flipping spoilers.

 

That'll be Old Earth ruined now to. You people are atrocious.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I wonder what Alpharius was smoking.

 

Favorite scene - Omegon is looking at Alphys skull -

 

“Horus is calling for Alpharius.”

 

“Hulo”

[MarineRaider]

 

Interesting in HH49   SPOILER!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Russ comments as he is leaving Terra that Dorn is finally breaking down the orbital plates and wondered why he is doing it so late.

 

Is that connected with PoD? Or just another aspect of 'grim siege preparations as Horus looms ever closer...'

 

It's WolfsBane. I just finished it, best HH book I have read in quite some time. How do you do the Spoiler thing? I looked at every button and could not find it.

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

Interesting in HH49   SPOILER!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Russ comments as he is leaving Terra that Dorn is finally breaking down the orbital plates and wondered why he is doing it so late.

 

Is that connected with PoD? Or just another aspect of 'grim siege preparations as Horus looms ever closer...'

 

It's WolfsBane. I just finished it, best HH book I have read in quite some time. How do you do the Spoiler thing? I looked at every button and could not find it.

 

 

 

[spoiler]Insert Spoiler(s) here[/spoiler]

[Orwell84]

 

 

Interesting in HH49   SPOILER!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Russ comments as he is leaving Terra that Dorn is finally breaking down the orbital plates and wondered why he is doing it so late.

 

Is that connected with PoD? Or just another aspect of 'grim siege preparations as Horus looms ever closer...'

 

It's WolfsBane. I just finished it, best HH book I have read in quite some time. How do you do the Spoiler thing? I looked at every button and could not find it.

 

 

Sorry, I meant whether Dorn taking down the orbital plates was connected with AL shenanigans in PoD. Been a while since I've read PoD so I might have missed that aspect of it if it's there.

[no I'm alpharius]

 

Very possibly, or at the very least his attitude and mind set will live on. Or maybe Fabius bred them some spare Primarch bodies. They certainly had augmented Legionaries that could appear as big as a Primarch. 

 

i wasn't even imagining remaking alpharius within a cloned body (those seem to just inherit memories anyway) or a primarch-stand-in astartes, though those are all possibilities...but even passing alpharius' mind from operator to operator as a way of keeping him "alive" for the legion itself, with alpharius constantly being reborn or revitalised in each generation. sometimes he could be an average AL legionary, others a human operative (if that's possible within the mechanism of this mind transfer thingy).

 

i don't even know if i like the idea, but the possibility of it struck me thanks to the op

 

 

Cut off one head and another takes its place. 

 

Yeah, I cannot see them not using that as a piece of future-plot. 

[Marshal Loss]

The finality of Omegon's moment at the end of Praetorian of Dorn leads me to believe that there is very little chance of that happening.

[Phoebus]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this topic honestly leaves me a little frustrated.

 

Hubris has been Alpharius's flaw since, well, forever. The climax* of Praetorian of Dorn finds Alpharius seemingly in control, believing he has the Imperial Fists outnumbered, cornered, and at his mercy. He believes that one of his patented, multi-layered plots has gone as planned. What Alpharius is looking for when he goes to meet Dorn is affirmation. Yes, Dorn is the last guy Alpharius should expect it from. That's the point. If Dorn wasn't so intractable, Alpharius wouldn't have been interested in forcing him to see the light -- that's his hubris coming into play.

 

Now, you can certainly ask whether or not French played fast and loose with some of the settings conventions in allowing the Fists to sneak up on the Alpha Legion (how many times have we seen psykers, Navigators, or even warship systems detect things like "warp wake" for incoming fleets). His characters, however, are spot-on.

 

Where the "when do the good guys lose" argument is concerned, I'll say two things:

 

1. It's not as simple as "the Traitors never win." As others have posted, a number of decisive set-backs have been showcased over the last couple dozen entries.

 

2. That said, I maintain that Black Library erred in a major way when they (perhaps indirectly) decided that the bulk of the series would be told in the periphery of the war itself.

 

I've beaten this drum before, but of the 29 numbered entries since Know No Fear, more than half have been about Imperium Secundus or the Shattered Legions. Another five involve a major campaign or expedition led by the Legiones Astartes, but are set away from the war effort itself. There's an entire numbered entry devoted to a McGuffin that never materializes. Following Shadows of Treachery, just three novels depict theaters of war besides Calth or Tallarn. Just one of those 25 novels uses the Sons of Horus -- literally, the main force of the Heresy -- as protagonists, and even then it's away from the process of actually conquering the Imperium.

 

In short, there has been some terrific stuff written in the Horus Heresy... but, as a whole, the series is unbalanced.

 

* Technically that would be the big reveal for Alpharius, but just go with it...

[Heliomanes]

The problems are more with the execution than the ideas. The idea of killing off major players is good and needed in the Heresy book series, and connecting it to the character traits of both Primarchs is good. The problem is doing this by actually including blunt writer shorthand for "and this was totally the real Alpharius and he is totally stone dead for real you guys", which is inelegant writing at best. It plays against the strengths of the setting and the established multiperspectival view we're used to with the Black Library books, codexes, Forge World book series etc, where they often contradict one another and leave a lot of room for speculation, and thus nuance.

Heartily agree with your points on "when the good guys lose", Phoebus. I think the lack of Sons of Horus' perspectives is a big reason why the Talon of Horus felt like such a breath of fresh air.

[nagashnee]

To be fair he or omegon were the ONLY primarchs that could ever be killed off in the HH without creating oh so many problems in the canon ( such as GW  keeps it).  Was it very sudden and part of a plan that doesn't really add up?  I would say yes, hopefully it will be used in other Alpha legion books in the future to good effect. I mean with so many important HH characters having been know to survive the heresy deaths have been few in general ( Argel Tal being the notable and best exemption) . I am still a little satly they brought loken back. 

 

But yeah the HH series has truly drooped the ball on showing the actual war, that like a bad monster film is always taking place just off screen.  But hey at least we know what the scattered legions did from a dozen or so perspectives. The true HH MVPS  .

[Lucerne]

Praetorian of Dorn was fine for what it was assuming there's a proper resolution to the Legion "losing" Alpharius and an actual resolution to what happens to them and their motivations-  or at least hints/BL following a coherent outline for once- but yes, idiots bleating about the Alpha Legion being "overpowered" have clearly never actually read any of the heresy material.

 

If anything, I'd say Seventh Serpent is proof McNeil should never be let near Alpha Legion stories ever again.

[Moonreaper666]

I kinda want Dorn or Khan or Corax to be dead

 

(Hopefully Dorn by the hands of a VERY ANGRY Omegon)

 

 

I kinda find it BS that these Loyalists Primarchs can disappear only to be summoned back by GW in the 41st Millenium

 

 

Having one of them die during the HH or after that shakes the storyline

[Brother Tyler]

I kinda want Dorn or Khan or Corax to be dead

 

(Hopefully Dorn by the hands of a VERY ANGRY Omegon)

 

 

I kinda find it BS that these Loyalists Primarchs can disappear only to be summoned back by GW in the 41st Millenium

 

 

Having one of them die during the HH or after that shakes the storyline

Let's see, Ferrus Manus died on Istvaan at the start of the Horus Heresy. Sanguinius died on the Vengeful Spirit in the climactic battle of the Horus Heresy. Rogal Dorn died beating back a black crusade (not Abaddon's First Black Crusade, some other black crusade before that).

 

And Vulkan, of course, has died many many times (ah, the woes of being a Primarch that's also a Perpetual). Despite that, we've never known him to die and stay dead, though we don't know what he's up to right now.

 

How many traitor Primarchs have died through history up to the present (and this doesn't include II and XI)?

 

And disappearing mysteriously (or not so mysteriously) has been a legendary device since time immemorial, and the mysterious disappearances of the remaining loyalists included quips to presage the possibility that some might actually return to the game universe. Meanwhile, the traitors have popped up here and there over the millennia (the Phoenician during the Scouring, Angron led an attack that reached Armageddon, Magnus led two attacks that reached Fenris, Mortarion ventured into real-space at least once). There has been a bit of balance in that, infused with the powers of Chaos, the Chaos Primarchs can be banished for a bit of time, though they usually don't even bother with the petty issues of the real world now that they are part of the Great Game of Chaos; meanwhile, the loyalist Primarchs [that aren't definitively dead] have been there, but just out of reach.

 

The surviving Primarchs on both sides have had disappeared until 7th/8th edition. The Chaos Primarchs have been in and around the lore and a few of the loyalist Primarchs are available as GW needs them for the storyline. Primarchs on both sides have been there waiting for Games Workshop to pull them out when the storyline needed. The two definitely available for the loyalists were Roboute Guilliman and Lion El'Jonson. The four more ambiguously available for the loyalists were Russ, Corax, Khan, and Vulkan. Meanwhile, with the exception of Horus, the traitors, now Chaos, have had eight available for the storyline. And that became nine with we were introduced to Omegon.

 

With Alpharius gone, that's back down to eight. And if Omegon remains truly loyal, then the numbers are even at seven per side (though the traitors are now infused with Chaos powers).

 

Back on topic, Praetorian of Dorn may have achieved two goals, one in-universe and one in the real world. The in-universe goal is that the attack revealed holes in the defenses of Terra and the loyalists were able to resolve those weaknesses. The real world goal was equalizing the number of surviving Primarchs (balancing the lore). Those are just guesses of mine, mind you.

 

Removing either Alpharius or Omegon (you know which it turned out to be ) in order to maintain a balance of [potential] power. As was pointed out, one of the twin Primarchs was expendable for the sake of the storyline; and I would suggest that not only was one expendable, but it was essential that one had to die during the Horus Heresy stories in order to preserve the (very loose) lore as we've understood it for years.

 

Maybe.

 

Addressing the original point, I think that the heavy handed nature in which a certain someone's death was presented was very deliberate, clearing up any potential confusion from the complex storyline.

[Boldthreat]

I kinda want Dorn or Khan or Corax to be dead

 

(Hopefully Dorn by the hands of a VERY ANGRY Omegon)

 

 

I kinda find it BS that these Loyalists Primarchs can disappear only to be summoned back by GW in the 41st Millenium

 

 

Having one of them die during the HH or after that shakes the storyline

Dorn does die after the Heresy. Anything else is heretical fantasy. The idea that Dorn fakes his death and/or goes on a 9000 year super secret squirrel plot like he is some alpha legion primarch is too much.

 

The only thing that would sweeten that horrible situation is if that were the catalyst that brought Perturabo out of the warp. Like ol Pert was so bored and disinterested in it all until his most hated rival returned. Like the Joker and Batman.

 

Almost makes me wish Dorn wasn’t dead... but he is and I like it that way.

[DarkChaplain]

I still pray that Vulkan is actually dead now, after The Beast Arises. He goes in knowing his time has come, the chapter interludes all build up towards Vulkan going to his final rest at last, the final book involving him has him literally go up against the psychic manifestation of the Waaagh and seemingly has him consumed.

 

If ANYTHING can kill a Perpetual Primarch, it'd be a psychic gestalt phenomenon that quite literally engulfs his very soul and consumes it, cutting it off or out from the Warp. We know that souls can be entirely obliterated, as that's what the Emperor did to Horus, and I'd argue that the Waaagh as an unfaltering mass of psychic energy, as gathered by the largest Waaagh in history, with the most titanic ork champions the Imperium has ever seen (and many of those at that) and endless hordes, should have enough of an impact to outdo the Emperor in terms of sheer psychic force.

 

So far, Vulkan has (as far as I am aware) never been psychically destroyed. Whenever he died, including during atmospheric reentry, his soul was still kicking in the warp, albeit detached from his body in the sense that it wasn't a coherent mass anymore but fragmented atoms. That time he lost his sanity, but he was still Vulkan. He still remembered Curze, for one.

 

On top of that, Fulgurite, the thing that is supposed to be the Perpetual Killer in the setting, is a manifestation of the Emperor's psychic might. So it isn't just some macguffin akin to Perpetual kryptonite, the shape or material isn't really relevant, but the psychic ability inherent in it is. I'd argue that the green energy Vulkan mind-battled would be at least the equal to that remnant of Fulgurite and perform the same function.

 

In other words, I hope Vulkan stays dead and this was actually the last time he'll ever appear in anything ever, and GW won't just retcon it but acknowledge the rules that were made up about Perpetuals.

[Phoebus]

The problems are more with the execution than the ideas. The idea of killing off major players is good and needed in the Heresy book series, and connecting it to the character traits of both Primarchs is good. The problem is doing this by actually including blunt writer shorthand for "and this was totally the real Alpharius and he is totally stone dead for real you guys", which is inelegant writing at best. It plays against the strengths of the setting and the established multiperspectival view we're used to with the Black Library books, codexes, Forge World book series etc, where they often contradict one another and leave a lot of room for speculation, and thus nuance.

 

Heartily agree with your points on "when the good guys lose", Phoebus. I think the lack of Sons of Horus' perspectives is a big reason why the Talon of Horus felt like such a breath of fresh air.

 

It's really not inelegant writing, though, is it? I mean, I'm going to be blunt here (apologies in advance!), but what you offered above is really reader shorthand for "I don't happen to like what French did here." This, even though French offering a sense of finality (in a series that has been coy about the ramifications of its events and/or denying resolution, to the point of hurting itself) about Alpharius is no more worse, literarily speaking, than Doumas having Milady DeWinter decapitated vice "disappearing down a waterfall."

 

Furthermore, not having an answer doesn't equate to nuance any more so than having definitive answers every time equates to solid writing. It's a case-by-case thing.

 

Finally, when it comes to the Sons of Horus, I would humbly offer you two things:

 

1. You're overstating the point I was trying to make. I'm not calling for the opposite extreme, wherein the majority of the entries since Know No Fear star the Sons of Horus. Rather, I'm simply pointing out that only one entry featured the spearhead of the Horus Heresy, while no less than six were about the Shattered Legions and another four were about a sideplot about legions who were so removed from the actual conflict itself that they didn't even know for sure what was happening with it.

 

2. You're not giving Talon of Horus enough credit if you genuinely think that a number of the last 24-25 numbered entries being redirected toward the conquest of the galaxy would somehow hurt that novel or people's enjoyment of it.

[Heliomanes]

 

The problems are more with the execution than the ideas. The idea of killing off major players is good and needed in the Heresy book series, and connecting it to the character traits of both Primarchs is good. The problem is doing this by actually including blunt writer shorthand for "and this was totally the real Alpharius and he is totally stone dead for real you guys", which is inelegant writing at best. It plays against the strengths of the setting and the established multiperspectival view we're used to with the Black Library books, codexes, Forge World book series etc, where they often contradict one another and leave a lot of room for speculation, and thus nuance.

 

Heartily agree with your points on "when the good guys lose", Phoebus. I think the lack of Sons of Horus' perspectives is a big reason why the Talon of Horus felt like such a breath of fresh air.

 

It's really not inelegant writing, though, is it? I mean, I'm going to be blunt here (apologies in advance!), but what you offered above is really reader shorthand for "I don't happen to like what French did here." This, even though French offering a sense of finality (in a series that has been coy about the ramifications of its events and/or denying resolution, to the point of hurting itself) about Alpharius is no more worse, literarily speaking, than Doumas having Milady DeWinter decapitated vice "disappearing down a waterfall."

 

Furthermore, not having an answer doesn't equate to nuance any more so than having definitive answers every time equates to solid writing. It's a case-by-case thing.

 

Finally, when it comes to the Sons of Horus, I would humbly offer you two things:

 

1. You're overstating the point I was trying to make. I'm not calling for the opposite extreme, wherein the majority of the entries since Know No Fear star the Sons of Horus. Rather, I'm simply pointing out that only one entry featured the spearhead of the Horus Heresy, while no less than six were about the Shattered Legions and another four were about a sideplot about legions who were so removed from the actual conflict itself that they didn't even know for sure what was happening with it.

 

2. You're not giving Talon of Horus enough credit if you genuinely think that a number of the last 24-25 numbered entries being redirected toward the conquest of the galaxy would somehow hurt that novel or people's enjoyment of it.

 

I gotta say, I found this post disheartening to read. Your first point is a good one, and I should have stated that vagueness "leaves room for" nuance, not claim that it inevitably leads to it. That's a good correction. But the last two points seem like you're not reading my post with a charitable attitude.

 

From the statement that "I think the lack of Sons of Horus' perspectives is a big reason why the Talon of Horus felt like such a breath of fresh air." you've jumped to the conclusion that I am calling for "the opposite extreme", and that I somehow think that "a number of the last 24-25 numbered entries being redirected toward the conquest of the galaxy would somehow hurt that novel or people's enjoyment of it.".

 

I've tried rereading my post a few times, and I might be missing something here, but does that really seem like a reasonable interpretation of what I wrote?

 

Edit: Spelling.

 

 

[Phoebus]

Perhaps I am guilty of that. From where I’m standing, I was pointing out that just one title since Know No Fear (and I was using that title kind of arbitrarily, in the sense that it was the last one devoted to a “major theater of operations”) starred the Sons of Horus. When you responded by saying the lack of said perspective furthered your enjoyment of Talon, I think I did respond poorly. I made a broad statement in the sense that I attributed something to you that went beyond your original statement. I want to stand by the point that I was trying to make — more Sons of Horus would not have taken away from Talon — but I could have gone a heck of a lot better about it!

 

Basically, I’m sorry!

[Heliomanes]

Perhaps I am guilty of that. From where I’m standing, I was pointing out that just one title since Know No Fear (and I was using that title kind of arbitrarily, in the sense that it was the last one devoted to a “major theater of operations”) starred the Sons of Horus. When you responded by saying the lack of said perspective furthered your enjoyment of Talon, I think I did respond poorly. I made a broad statement in the sense that I attributed something to you that went beyond your original statement. I want to stand by the point that I was trying to make — more Sons of Horus would not have taken away from Talon — but I could have gone a heck of a lot better about it!

 

Basically, I’m sorry!

Ah, genuinely appreciated, sir. I agree with you entirely, and I didn't mean to imply that more Sons of Horus would have taken anything away from the Talon of Horus. I just remember it as being, well, a breath of fresh air in addition to a really great book. When I read your note on how few and far between the Sons of Horus' perspectives are utilized in the Heresy series, I thought you had articulated one of the (for me) big reasons why it felt so refreshing - as an addition to the superb quality.

 

But this is perhaps getting a bit far from the OT, so I'll reel it in.

[Sete]

Everyone someone writes Dorn is dead, allegedly should be added after aswell lol

[carlisimo]

Any thoughts on what Alpharius’s last words were?

[Kelborn]

Definitely not "Just as planned." :P