Against the Nids ... help!

[Hear da Lamentation]

I played the Nids this weekend, 1500 points.

I got an absolute kicking ... half by army gone turn 1 before I could act. The majority of the rest gone by first half of turn 2.

 

I made a few mistakes (not protecting Bjorn enough) but the new(ish) rules for Nids now are brutal.

 

My army was

BJORN

Runepriest (basic)

Battle leader with krakenbone sword and ss.

 

5 Hellblasters

5 intercessors

5 grey hunters pg, pp

 

Razorback TLLC

Razorback TLAC

 

5 Wulfen 2 th/SS. 2fa

 

3 TWC 3 th/ss

2 cyberwolves

 

His was (something like)

 

Hive tyrant

Trygon

Malenthrope (HQ)

Broodlord

20 devilgaunts

20 gene stealers

3 hive guard

2 carnoflexes (shooty with 24 shot guns)

2 backfield guys who shoot spore mines (never remember their name)

 

So ..

 

Trygon, broodlord, 20 devilgaunts and flyrant in reserve.

My Wulfen and WGBL in reserve.

 

He wins who goes first (the 2 cyberwolves lose me going first).

 

He pops his trygon right in front of my left flank, 9” away. 20 devilgaunts and broodlord come with his (2 command points) and flyrant joins them.

Lots of spells giving him fnp.

Then he shoots with his devilgaunts (who actually reroll 1’s if they don’t move ... luckily they had this turn).

60 bs3 s4 shots.

Then he spends 2 more CP and shoots again!

120 shots later 2/3 of my intercessors and all hellblasters are dead. TWC lose 2 wounds.

 

Hive tyrants (who don’t need line of site) take 4 wounds off razorback with TLLC then the flyrant finished it off with shooting and assault,

The genestealers get 3d6 (choose highest) advance and assault. They move 14” then assault remaining intercessors, finishing them off.

 

Trygon (who adds 1 to charge roll) gets into combat with TWC and kills all 3 before they can attack back.

 

Then it was my turn 1 LOL

[Krakendoomcool]

My own experience with Tyranids seems to be going second and always getting first turn charged by lots of genestealers, flying and burrowing monsters. I’ve had this 5 times in a row so have come to expect it. You seem to have the same issues I had.

 

I’ve been resorting to bubble wrap. Fenrisian wolf units. On the flanks. Then leaving dreadnoughts for him to charge. In my experience they survive the charge unlike any sort of infantry which die straight away. The high toughness really thins out the damage sustained.

 

Transports and other vehicles should do better too at limiting the damage sustained. The stuff that can make a first turn charge is a bit ‘lighter’ than other options available. That is the trade off the Tyrannid player is making. But you only get to see that if you survive. If you can weather the charge they are easier to kill than the slower tougher stuff in the Tyrannid range.

 

Hope this helps. Good luck.

[TiguriusX]

I know most SW don't want to hear this but take a vanilla SM detachment with scouts.  Push the deep strike safety bubble way back using the scout special deployment rules.

 

Then pray we get something similar so you can drop the crutch when the codex drops.

[Krakendoomcool]

Another example of our Elite and veteran Wolf Scouts being the worst...for now...

[Kasper_Hawser]

I played the Nids this weekend, 1500 points.

I got an absolute kicking ... half by army gone turn 1 before I could act. The majority of the rest gone by first half of turn 2.

 

I made a few mistakes (not protecting Bjorn enough) but the new(ish) rules for Nids now are brutal.

 

My army was

BJORN

Runepriest (basic)

Battle leader with krakenbone sword and ss.

 

5 Hellblasters

5 intercessors

5 grey hunters pg, pp

 

Razorback TLLC

Razorback TLAC

 

5 Wulfen 2 th/SS. 2fa

 

3 TWC 3 th/ss

2 cyberwolves

 

 

Pleae forgive me, because I may sound scathing in my feedback, But before I comment on the Tyranids, I'm afraid I have to ask you to analyse your list.

 

What are 5 hellblasters supposed to do?

What are 5 Grey Hunters supposed to do?

What are 5 intercessors suposed to do?

What are 5 wulfen supposed to do?

What is a battle leader, who already rerolls 1s to wound, doing with a krakensword?

 

I'm sorry, but before you cry cheese on the other player (even if it is somewhat justified), I feel you need to relook at your list which is VERY inefficient. You have one of everything doing something of everything rather than what you REALLY need to fight a tyranid horde or any other horde. Which simply is:

 

1) Bubble wrap

2) Careful Castling of gunline

3) and more Dakka dakka dakka.

 

We CANNOT try to out assault almost ANY assault army, whether it is Tyranids, Orks or even Blood Angels. All of them either hit harder (BA +1 to wound), or hit A LOT MORE. Even if they failed the assault and your wulfen, Bjorn and TWC charged them, do you really expect them to survive the counter assault? 3 TWC have at best 10 attacks if you arm with claws, plus another 9 S5 attacks from the dogs. That's 15 attacks. Since all S5, maybe 75% will wound or 11 wounds. The Genestealers have 5+ invulnsaves. They can have 5+ ignore wounds. In the end, maybe 8 will die.

 

8 of 20. And then 16 hits back. And since they're fearless, 16 will still hit back in his turn for either 32 or 48 attacks, I can't remember if genestealers have 2 or 3 attacks base.

 

Similar scenario for Wulfen who have less attacks than TWC unless you give them all axes.

 

To be honest, playing against tyranids is like playing on hardcore if not outright insanity level where you CANNOT make mistakes, starting from your list. 

 

Based on what I and others have said, try to envision a better list before we try pit it in theory with the exact same tyranid list and discuss tactics.

 

I'll just give two suggestions on what you need:

 

1) Twin assault cannon razorback

2) Stormwolf with two TWIN heavy bolters. (that's another 12 shots on a flying platform)

[PeteySödes]

Stormwolf is also amazing at getting position to take out malanthropes if they were so inclined...

[Kasper_Hawser]

Stormwolf is also amazing at getting position to take out malanthropes if they were so inclined...

 

True, although typically in a foot slogging army, their characters will be right smack in middle of a horde which you cannot land near to ensure character hits unless he is really dumb. For my suggestion, i was thinking of using it as an anti-infantry gunship, secondary anti-tank/monstrous creature (against the flyrant, the Hellfrost and two lascannons should hurt him enough), and lastly, as emergency objective grabber. 

 

Not sure if Malanthropes are characters though. i expect them to be.

[Karhedron]

My Wulfen and WGBL in reserve.

These strike me as the wrong units to be putting in Reserve. You know the Nids will be coming towards you so you won't need help getting Wulfen into assault. Put them behind some LOS blocking terrain and use them for counter-charging. Outflanking works better for shooty units like the Hellblasters. This prevents them from being Alpha'ed and ensures you can get at least one good turn of shooting out of them, preferably at a valuable target.

 

Your army seems to lack boots on the ground. Basic bolters need to be used en-masse against the kind of number Nids are likely to field. Either that or invest in some serious horde-clearance units like Stormbolter wolfguard on bikes.

 

Bubble-wrapping is pretty vital in 8th. This does not have to be in the form of chaff units (although it can be). Grey Hunters in Transports and Axe/Shield Ven dreads are both durable enough to blunt a nid offensive and protect the shooty units behind. Speaking of shooty units, some Long Fangs would not go amiss.

 

TWC and Wulfen just don't look like the right units to tackle a Nid horde as they are neither tough enough nor punchy enough. Axe/Shield Dreads are tough enough and hitty enough to take on the big bugs while WG Bikers with Storm Bolters or even Blood Claws in a Rhino will help to deal with hordes of little critters.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks guys. Let me take the comments one at a time.

 

I feel my army is pretty well balanced personally (I haven’t tailored for Nids). However I am more than willing to try different things.

 

Kasper ... I had a TLAC razorback. The devilgaunts can pop one of those per round if they double shoot. The hiveguard also cause serious damage to vehicles and don’t need LOS.

I could go full mech of course.

 

Intercessors are there for super cheap bodies on ground and a good screen for Bjorn.

Hellblasters, Bjorn, razorback with TLAC, GH and intercessors keep close together to benefit from reroll 1s (particularly the plasma of course) while the TWC provide a distraction.

Wulfen are there to take down the big guys (which they did a reasonable job of and would have done a lot better with if the Nids couldn’t fall back and still assault).

Battle leader with krakenbone is just because it’s supet cheap for him. I couldn’t afford a wolf priest (which I would have preferred to go with the Wulfen .... he has a jet pack which I missed saying)

 

What I really want to stress here is that his Nid army wasn’t strongly assault based. It was strongly shooting based. More shots than I can pump out ... good BS ... good str. Bubble wrap isn’t going to help that and 120 shots from devilgaunts would clear any bubble wrap anyway.

 

Stormbolter bikers. I love these guys and have used them on Nids. In the end though they are expensive 2wound T5 marines who get vapourised by shooting just like everything else.

 

 

Last thing ... I’m definitely not crying cheese here. I just need advice on how to deal with that....

 

HDL

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thinking on it I suppose his army had good elements of assault too ... but it was without doubt the shooting which wiped me out. (For instance my Wulfen took out his flyrant but when they got in combat with his carnie he just fell back next round and shot the hell out of them).

[The Saint Ragnar]

Yeah Nids are a tough nut with the right list composition. Something I noticed is you said BS 3+ for the gaunts. They are BS 4+ from my memory and playing against them. Might have been a simple rules mistake by your opponent. Only think with BS 3+ are some bigger beasts like Hive Tyrants or Carnifexes with a gland as examples.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I think you’re right Saint

[Kasper_Hawser]

Thanks guys. Let me take the comments one at a time.

 

I feel my army is pretty well balanced personally (I haven’t tailored for Nids). However I am more than willing to try different things.

 

Kasper ... I had a TLAC razorback. The devilgaunts can pop one of those per round if they double shoot. The hiveguard also cause serious damage to vehicles and don’t need LOS.

I could go full mech of course.

 

Intercessors are there for super cheap bodies on ground and a good screen for Bjorn.

Hellblasters, Bjorn, razorback with TLAC, GH and intercessors keep close together to benefit from reroll 1s (particularly the plasma of course) while the TWC provide a distraction.

Wulfen are there to take down the big guys (which they did a reasonable job of and would have done a lot better with if the Nids couldn’t fall back and still assault).

Battle leader with krakenbone is just because it’s supet cheap for him. I couldn’t afford a wolf priest (which I would have preferred to go with the Wulfen .... he has a jet pack which I missed saying)

 

What I really want to stress here is that his Nid army wasn’t strongly assault based. It was strongly shooting based. More shots than I can pump out ... good BS ... good str. Bubble wrap isn’t going to help that and 120 shots from devilgaunts would clear any bubble wrap anyway.

 

Stormbolter bikers. I love these guys and have used them on Nids. In the end though they are expensive 2wound T5 marines who get vapourised by shooting just like everything else.

 

 

Last thing ... I’m definitely not crying cheese here. I just need advice on how to deal with that....

 

HDL

 

Sorry if i sound rude, believe me when I say my intention is to give good advice so you can give the Tyranid a serious counter wallop in future.

 

A screening unit must have two things: It must be cheap points wise and there must be a lot of them. I can understand using your intercessors as a sort of body guard unit for your footslogging characters like Bjorn, but Intercessors are very expensive and as you found out, even with two wounds can die to a dedicated volley even if its just S4 AP0 BS3 attacks. No MSU should be out in the open on first turn, unless they have a good LOS blocker.

 

I am rather doubtful the devilgaunts coud pop the Razorback. Also I'm not aware of a strategem where they can shoot twice either. shoot or charge after advancing yes. even then, S4 vs T7 with a 3+ armour is rather hard to kill outright.

 

In either case, then placement of your forces is key. I'm not sure how your deployment was like, but it  looked like he was able to get within shooting distant Turn 1 with the Trygon. I'm surprised he decided to deepstrike the gaunts instead of the genestealers then. 

 

Deployment and counter deployment is key. In such a scenario, yes, you would have to sacrifice your small number units  to make sure your heavy dakka is protected from a turn 1 charge so as not to neutralise your essential shooting. Always be in cover, or if you get turn 1, make sure you get the Stormcaller off to give your units practically terminator armour. A lot of tyranid weapons are AP0 I think.

 

But I still think your list is rather weak especially due to Thunderwolves, which you could have gotten a Razorback with Twin heavy bolter with good utility, or multiple Long Fangs with missile launchers and Heavy bolters. The Wulfen are just a stand alone, with no one to support and to support them.

 

Hmmm, just realised you mentioned the gaunts having BS3+. In which case I call bull and cheater on your opponent as well.

 

We may not be able to memorise everything about the opponent codex but there are always a few things we must know about our opponents. Like generallty Tyranids are BS4+. only the tyrant is BS3+ I think. Good AP is also a rarity unless he spams Hive Guards. that's why Stormcaller is invaluable in this sort of situation to neutralise his shooting.

 

And their most important unit I believe isn't the genestealers, the Flyrants, the Swarmlord or even the Zoanthropes: it is the Malanthrope. That is his only protection for his little bugs, as well as the Big Bugs. Target prioritise them if he has them. Just stay the hell away until you've whittled down his numbers to manageable numbers.

[PeteySödes]

The other thing that i don't think we got context on was the mission. I feel like a lot of people just play pitched battles, or more frequently, just get bloodlusted and don't play to the objectives.

 

Right now we're at a tactical disadvantage being that we don't have a codex and PA is getting increasingly useless as whole, bottom line it doesnt seem great (ahem wolftime..). In a straight up i march at you, you march at me lets fight, I don't think we end up too great against most armies.

 

What we do have though are specialized units that can be better at "X" than a lot of armies. But to capitalize on it you need to play the mission. I don't mean to sound condescending or 101 class here but every decision you make should be in service to it.

 

Tyranids are scary and can put the pressure on, guess what though, so can we. Hide what you can turn 1, outflank a speedbump squad and start splitting his forces. If they are outshooting you, maybe that speedbump can try and pick out those hive guard? 

 

Could we get more context on the mission?

[TiguriusX]

In my experience shield dreads are always the answer to what ails you

 

In my 2 games v nids the shield dreads and bjorn went bonkers (my monsters are scarier than yours muwahaha)

 

My storm bolter bikers had fun too

[Wolf Guard Dan]

You're getting a lot of good advice. The biggest problem is we are fighting uphill battles because we don't have our codex and all the goodies that come with it. And Tyranids are a really well designed codex. Every unit has a place and a role in their codex with only a few bad units.

 

Successful 8th edition lists aren't "balanced". They take what they are best at and focus on that. Focus > Balance. Which is tough for us because I think SW style has been Jack of All Trades.

 

The nids list outnumbers you by a lot but still has room for a ton of monstrous creatures. Very touch matchup for your "elite" list. Unless you're custodes it is really tough for elite armies this edition. BA have their niche right now too.

 

You have too many elite units in your list. I would set aside the TWC as they've been lackluster this edition. If you have to field the TWC get rid of the thunder hammers. Switch to an anti-infantry weapon, even if it is just a chainsword. My personal favorites are Long fangs with missile launchers supported by a WGBL and Fenrisian wolf screens. Often people will ignore the Fen Wolves and it will be their mistake. I also view the Rune Priest as a point-sink. Your list would be better off with a second WGBL if you needed a third HQ.

 

During deployment you should castle up and deploy as far back as you can so their first turn half of their weapons won't be able to reach you.

 

Overall I wouldn't go out and buy a whole new army or anything. Our codex is probably out within the next 2-3 months. GW has gotten better at writing codexes as the edition has matured. I predict our codex will be as well-designed as the Dark Eldar codex is now. Everyone loves that codex right now.

[Kasper_Hawser]

You're getting a lot of good advice. The biggest problem is we are fighting uphill battles because we don't have our codex and all the goodies that come with it. And Tyranids are a really well designed codex. Every unit has a place and a role in their codex with only a few bad units.

 

Successful 8th edition lists aren't "balanced". They take what they are best at and focus on that. Focus > Balance. Which is tough for us because I think SW style has been Jack of All Trades.

 

The nids list outnumbers you by a lot but still has room for a ton of monstrous creatures. Very touch matchup for your "elite" list. Unless you're custodes it is really tough for elite armies this edition. BA have their niche right now too.

 

You have too many elite units in your list. I would set aside the TWC as they've been lackluster this edition. If you have to field the TWC get rid of the thunder hammers. Switch to an anti-infantry weapon, even if it is just a chainsword. My personal favorites are Long fangs with missile launchers supported by a WGBL and Fenrisian wolf screens. Often people will ignore the Fen Wolves and it will be their mistake. I also view the Rune Priest as a point-sink. Your list would be better off with a second WGBL if you needed a third HQ.

 

During deployment you should castle up and deploy as far back as you can so their first turn half of their weapons won't be able to reach you.

 

Overall I wouldn't go out and buy a whole new army or anything. Our codex is probably out within the next 2-3 months. GW has gotten better at writing codexes as the edition has matured. I predict our codex will be as well-designed as the Dark Eldar codex is now. Everyone loves that codex right now.

 

In the meantime, try going back to grey hunters and razorbacks. Maybe invest a little in some individual cyberwolves to "screen" or push back the deepstrike positions. Leave the Thunderwolves at home. My prejudice against them aside, (Aesthethically, Fluffily, and now Competitively, they're not good) the former kings of marine close combat isn't worth it.

[Ishagu]

Nids are a top codex, beating them is always hard.

 

You need to know them well, deploy correctly and have key dice rolls on our side.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Nids are a top codex, beating them is always hard.

 

You need to know them well, deploy correctly and have key dice rolls on our side.

 

You know something terrifying? I know a guy who plays nids and EVERYONE was terrified of him. You know when this was? during the horrible days of 6th and 7th edition, BEFORE the Tyranocyte was "ahem" dropped. This guy was so tactically aware, that he made the nids, which were the lowest at the time (thanks to Robin Crudance I think), into a terrifying force that even the most competitive veteran in my meta was afraid.

 

And now nids are legitimately top tier..... God I need to practice with him soon in order to experience first turn charges and all the high level distractions.

[TiguriusX]

The mawloc with 1" deep strike causing mortal wounds the second it is placed is a curveball

 

Gives the middle finger to cyberwolves spread out in the backfield anf creates a hole in the backfield for another unit to immediately deploy in

[Kasper_Hawser]

The mawloc with 1" deep strike causing mortal wounds the second it is placed is a curveball

 

Gives the middle finger to cyberwolves spread out in the backfield anf creates a hole in the backfield for another unit to immediately deploy in

 

Actually the previous "Terror from below" was more terriying, an AP2 large blast popping twice trying to nommm your mass of units. Your only hope was that it rolled a 1 to die when it went back into reserve I think as if there were still units underneath after the two attacks, and therefore could potentially mishap itself.

 

But if he DOES use a mawloc, that means one less blob of genestealers or ranged dakkafex, and then your plasma and melta will be in range. If you are really gutsy, put Bjorn in heroic intervention range if a mawloc is used.

 

Besides, despite the 1" deployment, the Cyberwolf has 2 wounds,  and moreover the base of the Mawloc is HUGE. Need some placement practice to anticipate but I think it can be done.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Some great advice and posts here. I’m going to answer some in more detail later but let me answer this first.

 

I played this army when he deepstruck genestealers with the mawlock / trygon (I can’t remember the name but he gets to come up from the ground and with 2cp he gets to bring 2 units with him). He only had a 1/3 chance of getting his 9” charge .. and he missed. Putting the devilgaunts in instead was massively the right move. They get to come in anywhere within 9” and then shoot 120 shots (with 2cp for shoot again). It can’t fail. Back that up with the flyrant and trygon shooting, plus hive guard no LOS and that shooting phase is nasty. The genestealers have enough move to get close if not assault ... and with another 2cp they get to move and advance again (can’t assault but can get into a great position).

Plus don’t forget all the many psychers get fnp. 20 devilgaunts with fnp and 20 genestealers with 5++ 5+fnp ....

 

HDL

[The Saint Ragnar]

I have seen a nasty combo from Tyranids and hormagaunts where they used kraken, advanced the hormagaunts (with adrenal glands) and then spent I think 1 or 2 CP to double that advance. The gaunts were now super close and at the end of the movement a Hive Tyrant came down and cast Onslaught so now the huge blob of hormagaunts charged and tied up the front screen. With that number of bodies they were able to wrap a unit so they stayed in combat as they consolidate 6". Next turn the hormagaunts fell back from the combat as they were charged by some units from the opposing player. After that since they were kraken they basically wrapped up the gun line behind. not as deadly as genestealers when they charge but the number of bodies that moved across the board and just would not die was ridiculous. He also spent CPs on caustic blood? so that each gaunt who died could potentially mortal wound the nice and expensive counter charge unit that took them out.

 

There are some tasty combos for them but what I found to be my saving grace was bodies. Bringing as many GHs as I could with heavy weapons dug in behind them. The heavy weapons shoot the big beasties while the bodies shoot everything else and charge if necessary to help screen the bodies further back.

 

I also recently tried two outflanking Long Fangs squads with plasma on the pack leader and WGPL and the other four Long Fangs carrying HBs. For 152 points per squad they pumped out a ridiculous amount of fire and the built in re-roll to 1s meant I could either overcharge the plasma guns against the big boys or re-rolls the HBs against the small swarms. I brought them on near my backfield as my opponent was moving aggressive and they melted the ~30 man termagaunt squad and were able to take down two carnifexes before they saw combat. They were near my missile launcher long fang squad so I brought my jump pack WGBL with all of them so that is probably why they were so deadly.

[TiguriusX]

Yes more users of the LF on the hunt! I stumbled across them and have been pleasantly surprised ever since

[Krakendoomcool]

I feel like a fool. I’ve got Chaos Havocs with Plasma guns and Wolf Guard with combi-plasmas. I’ve had both these units since 5th edition. But I’ve never done Long Fangs with plasma guns. It’s like I’ve been looking everywhere but somehow not directly at the solution. Now with their built in re-roll 1s they are perfect for the job. Tempting...