Against the Nids ... help!

[Kasper_Hawser]

I have seen a nasty combo from Tyranids and hormagaunts where they used kraken, advanced the hormagaunts (with adrenal glands) and then spent I think 1 or 2 CP to double that advance. The gaunts were now super close and at the end of the movement a Hive Tyrant came down and cast Onslaught so now the huge blob of hormagaunts charged and tied up the front screen. With that number of bodies they were able to wrap a unit so they stayed in combat as they consolidate 6". Next turn the hormagaunts fell back from the combat as they were charged by some units from the opposing player. After that since they were kraken they basically wrapped up the gun line behind. not as deadly as genestealers when they charge but the number of bodies that moved across the board and just would not die was ridiculous. He also spent CPs on caustic blood? so that each gaunt who died could potentially mortal wound the nice and expensive counter charge unit that took them out.

 

There are some tasty combos for them but what I found to be my saving grace was bodies. Bringing as many GHs as I could with heavy weapons dug in behind them. The heavy weapons shoot the big beasties while the bodies shoot everything else and charge if necessary to help screen the bodies further back.

 

I also recently tried two outflanking Long Fangs squads with plasma on the pack leader and WGPL and the other four Long Fangs carrying HBs. For 152 points per squad they pumped out a ridiculous amount of fire and the built in re-roll to 1s meant I could either overcharge the plasma guns against the big boys or re-rolls the HBs against the small swarms. I brought them on near my backfield as my opponent was moving aggressive and they melted the ~30 man termagaunt squad and were able to take down two carnifexes before they saw combat. They were near my missile launcher long fang squad so I brought my jump pack WGBL with all of them so that is probably why they were so deadly.

 

Yes more users of the LF on the hunt! I stumbled across them and have been pleasantly surprised ever since

 

These days I never leave Long Fangs at home, bringing 3 at minimum. Less resilient than vehicles but easier to hide and in a way, more mobile and accurate due to reroll 1s and can easily come out of hiding to shoot from a ruin. As opposed to a Razorback which may not have big enough terrain to hide in.

 

Weakness is still lack of bolter bodies, but now i'm not missing the signum so much.

 

As for LF with just heavy bolters, well, perhaps I should give it a go, although I don't see much utility beyond thinning hordes. Even then, potential 15 shots from 5 heavy bolters who will be on the move most of the time..... could work but really needs a lieutenant to make sure something dies. 

 

As mentioned, in a list like Nids or Orks, EVERY hit needs to count. One more hit to kill a gaunt, is one less hit to kill the valuable synapse creatures.

 

Just to check, how many wounds are Hive Tyrants and Swarmlord? Are they generally > 9 wounds? If so what are their defences apart from 4++ and Hive Guards doing Look Out Sir? Traditionally I think of them being dakka flyrants but that was back in 7th when every idiot was doing it. If > 10 wounds, how hard/easy is it to pour heavy weapons fire into them, assuming he goes first? Does he/it have -1 to hit like flyers?

 

I'm still trying to figure out my strategies, but aside from castling up, I'm thinking that if the terrain is unforgiving and I don't trust my bubble wrap to do the job, then I think I will outflank the Long Fangs to come up to the necessary targets, whether it is the flyrant up front, or the Dakka fex at the back. 

 

Hmmmmmmm, on the other side, I wonder how to have a list which gives him NO big target to charge. These kind of 1st turn charges are supposed to break your lines and your spirit on turn 1. But what if your army has no "Base" so to speak?

 

Crazy idea I just came up with: have a small fleet of Stormwolves and all of your army embarked on them on the table. Only the Flyrants should be able to charge them then. They may still die to dakka, but at least the nids will be hitting on 5+. risky I know, if they explode and all the 15 guys comes out, my  luck typically I will rolll a lot of ones and they trip over themselves coming out of the wreckage.

[TiguriusX]

*Sudden Death not Boots on the ground rules (auto loss if no non flyers on board i think is the wording but not 100%) might stop that specific idea but you can do similar tricks.

 

Your thinking is drifting to my style of fighting (counter assault).

 

Deny easy targets and pounce after the opponent is attacking.

 

I present hard target shield dreads up front with my lascannon LF tucked behind and safe from normal deep strikers.

 

Go ahead and charge my dreads. It saves me from chasing after you. Bjorn heroically intervenes and gets free swings. My other hqs might too if they like the odds. Bjorn with warrior born can potentially swing first and i can spend cp on a shield dread to swing before his target too if the enemy activates the wrong unit.

[Kasper_Hawser]

*Sudden Death not Boots on the ground rules (auto loss if no non flyers on board i think is the wording but not 100%) might stop that specific idea but you can do similar tricks.

 

Your thinking is drifting to my style of fighting (counter assault).

 

Deny easy targets and pounce after the opponent is attacking.

 

I present hard target shield dreads up front with my lascannon LF tucked behind and safe from normal deep strikers.

 

Go ahead and charge my dreads. It saves me from chasing after you. Bjorn heroically intervenes and gets free swings. My other hqs might too if they like the odds. Bjorn with warrior born can potentially swing first and i can spend cp on a shield dread to swing before his target too if the enemy activates the wrong unit.

 

Hmm, forgot about Sudden Death rule. Damn now I remember that it was all thanks to the Stormraven Spam a year ago. THANKS YOU ALL, FRIGGIN COMPETITIVE BREAKERS OF THE GAME! Now I can't pull of a strategy involving flyers which does NOT involve spamming them.....

 

.... or am I? Does that mean I'm also a FRIGGIN COMPETITIVE BREAKER OF THE GAME? damn I am confused, am I a hypocrite and a heretic for trying to do something similar yet cursing the Stormraven spammers? Personally I don't think so since the reason I'm doing it is to ensure my troops survive to do damage. Yet it seems a thin line to me.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Thanks guys. Let me take the comments one at a time.

 

I feel my army is pretty well balanced personally (I haven’t tailored for Nids). However I am more than willing to try different things.

 

I don't see anything from that list that you provided that even remotely appears to be balanced. 

 

Your infantry are being treated like a tax, maybe that's to open up points for dreadnoughts and TWC, I'm not quite sure.  The Nids opponent has 40+ infantry models to your, 20+? Not knowing anything about Nids this edition I'm also going to guess he had plenty of aura buffs to go around. You can't take on an army like that with having close to no units capable of dealing with the numbers. 

 

As others have said, first and foremost, you need more infantry and need to design them in a way that gives you at least some tactical flexibility if not tactical advantages. Space Wolves definitely have some good characters on paper but without a large unit to bubble wrap them with they are going to be focused fired or charged to death with ease. It happens to the larger LoW characters like Mortarion, you can definitely bet it'll happen to a dreadnought or some TWC. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Bloodylegionaire - I already gave him a rather scathing review of his list, so let's let up on that. He needs more boots and bolters, not overgrown PAWS and claws on the ground, already made that clear alonng with others.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks guys. As I said initially I didn’t tailor for Nids. I’m referring to the army bring balanced because I have decent shooting (Bjorn AC, razor AC, razor with LC, Hellblasters able to overcharge every round, GH with plasma and intercessors) all with reroll 1s to hit, reasonable amounts of vehicles, and then I have some tough combat units with the Wulfen, TWC and Bjorn. I don’t see why that isn’t balanced but am happy to have it explained why.

 

I have to keep repeating this on the Nids though. Lots of talk about assaults and bubble wrapping ... bubble wrapping doesn’t work against shooting and the Nids gave great shooting.

 

Let’s do some maths hammer.

Shield dread.

120 shots with devil gaunts which can appear 9” away and shoot 18”. 60 hit. 5+wound do 20 wounds. 3+save so 8 wounds, dread is dead in 1 round of shooting. No need to assault it,

 

Exocrines shoot 48”. Hits do 1 mortal wound usually but can do 3. If they miss then there is a floating bomb 3” away which will charge and do that damage next round anyway,

 

Hive guard ... AP -2 str 7 2 shots each. 36” range. No LOS needed. No cover save.

 

Carnoflexes. 18” range, 24 shots each.

 

So ... I hear the comments about more boots less claws

[Gherrick]

I think an aggressor squad (non-flamers) would be a much better outflank unit than LF. Lots more shots, and they shouldn't be shooting higher T mobs in any case. I'd probably make a full-size unit and combat squad them during the outflank placement.

[TiguriusX]

Shooty nids you need to keep them at arms length from your key units.

 

You become the gunline basically and the nid wants medium range to shoot you

 

Vanilla scouts are the easiest buffer tool available to do this. 2 units of 5 sprrad to max coherency can basically deny mid field deep strike turn 1.

 

If you choose not to use scouts you need to hide key units on the rear edge of deployment and throw your speed bumps up front and just take the full brunt of their deep strike and stratagem combo.

 

Option B is not typically successful unless you have shield dreads as the speed bumps.

 

The next item is you need a horde killing unit or 2. Every list has some type of horde chaff.

 

I use 5 bikers with storm bolters (40 dice rapid fire range) and a leviathan with dual storm cannons (20 dice)

 

I am considering adding even more and swapping the plasma wolf guard to flamers.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Shooty nids you need to keep them at arms length from your key units.

 

You become the gunline basically and the nid wants medium range to shoot you

 

Vanilla scouts are the easiest buffer tool available to do this. 2 units of 5 sprrad to max coherency can basically deny mid field deep strike turn 1.

 

If you choose not to use scouts you need to hide key units on the rear edge of deployment and throw your speed bumps up front and just take the full brunt of their deep strike and stratagem combo.

 

Option B is not typically successful unless you have shield dreads as the speed bumps.

 

The next item is you need a horde killing unit or 2. Every list has some type of horde chaff.

 

I use 5 bikers with storm bolters (40 dice rapid fire range) and a leviathan with dual storm cannons (20 dice)

 

I am considering adding even more and swapping the plasma wolf guard to flamers.

 

I really like the idea of Wolf Guard Bikers with Stormbolters, except that prior to this edition, there was almost no use for Wolf Guard bikers and thus, in my collection thus far I have few bikes, most of them are used as Characters.

 

To create 5 WG bikers with Stormbolters just for anti-horde... before I myself try that idea, outside of horde lists, does it have some use against MEQ armies as well? Do you put power weapons on your WG bikers. Or just leave them with chainswords? 

[Gherrick]

I used grey knight arm-mounted storm bolters on my WG bikers, so I could still have them have a hand on the handlebars. Granted, I would think in 40000 years we could have a hands-free bike, but maybe someday...

[TiguriusX]

Shooty nids you need to keep them at arms length from your key units.

You become the gunline basically and the nid wants medium range to shoot you

Vanilla scouts are the easiest buffer tool available to do this. 2 units of 5 sprrad to max coherency can basically deny mid field deep strike turn 1.

If you choose not to use scouts you need to hide key units on the rear edge of deployment and throw your speed bumps up front and just take the full brunt of their deep strike and stratagem combo.

Option B is not typically successful unless you have shield dreads as the speed bumps.

The next item is you need a horde killing unit or 2. Every list has some type of horde chaff.

I use 5 bikers with storm bolters (40 dice rapid fire range) and a leviathan with dual storm cannons (20 dice)

I am considering adding even more and swapping the plasma wolf guard to flamers.

I really like the idea of Wolf Guard Bikers with Stormbolters, except that prior to this edition, there was almost no use for Wolf Guard bikers and thus, in my collection thus far I have few bikes, most of them are used as Characters.

To create 5 WG bikers with Stormbolters just for anti-horde... before I myself try that idea, outside of horde lists, does it have some use against MEQ armies as well? Do you put power weapons on your WG bikers. Or just leave them with chainswords?

I went ebay hunting and got like 12 or 13 of them.

Was able to get them for between $6-8 per bike

I originally planned to combi-flamer them but storm bolters save me so many points and are still effective I am torn

Need to place another order on Shapeways...

Anyways they are good against most targets because buckets of dice. I even fired them at a flyer nearby the other day and they got 3 or 4 wounds through.

I put storm shields on them and the PL gets a power axe or something depending on points I have leftover

[PeteySödes]

SB/SS wolf guard are my bread and butter. Grab two squads, toss them each in a RB. Mmm mmm watch em melt.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks again guys, I'm going to try out a few suggested lists on this thread for comment.

 

One question on who goes first (which is often critical) ... chapter approved talks about giving +1 to a roll off, rather than automatic going first for those who finish setting up first. Us this for all missions... Or just selected ones?

[TiguriusX]

That is between you and opponent

 

I play in an ITC environment so we always give +1

 

I personally prefer going 2nd

[Hear da Lamentation]

It's just knowing you will go first can be really effective for deployment if your planning an alpha strike from reserve.

 

I doubt he'll go for the +1 roll so I have a choice of seeing if I can go first or take the pummeling first.

 

I've reads boots on the ground , flier rule for deployment but there is no requirement for minimum deployment is there? You could out everything in reserve other than one unit? Thats just an example, I realise if you could take that unit out if you went first you would win ....

 

HDL

[TiguriusX]

It's just knowing you will go first can be really effective for deployment if your planning an alpha strike from reserve.

 

I doubt he'll go for the +1 roll so I have a choice of seeing if I can go first or take the pummeling first.

 

I've reads boots on the ground , flier rule for deployment but there is no requirement for minimum deployment is there? You could out everything in reserve other than one unit? Thats just an example, I realise if you could take that unit out if you went first you would win ....

 

HDL

 

Half your drops have to be on the board.  That is the deployment rule I am aware of that impacts alpha strike lists.

 

Easy to do with tons of cyberwolves if you are building an alpha strike type army.  Put a shield dread on the field so you don't get board wiped turn 1

 

I don't use flyers but the "sudden death" rule kicks in after turn 1 I believe (basically if you have no troops on the ground you lose).

 

Smart horde players can fill the board and prevent you any landing spaces so don't think alpha strike is the silver bullet solution

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks ... I was more thinking if his army was legal. I couldn’t find the rule that 50% needed to start on the board.

 

Ok .., so taking some ideas of this I knocked up a quick 1500. I’m a bit disappointed by what I managed to get.

 

Bjorn

Runepriest basic (need that cover save)

 

5 GH pg, pp

5 GH pg, pp

5 GH pg, pp

Razorback TLAC

Razorback TLAC

stormwolf TLHF, 2 LC, 2 TLHB

Longfangs 2LC 2PC

Longfangs 2LC 2PC

 

Deepstrike midfield deniers

5 SM vanilla scouts

5 SM vanilla scouts

 

Ok .. so that’s the basic idea talked about here ... more boots less claws. More shooting and a scout speed bump.

 

It doesn’t “feel” that powerful to me, but I’d appreciate comments and advice.

 

HDL

[Hear da Lamentation]

If I put the LF into the stormwolf I stand a chance of finishing deployment first...

[Gherrick]

At 1500pts, I'd not include a flyer. It's putting too many points into a difficult to defend unit. If you don't go first, expect it to be crippled if not outright destroyed turn 1.

[PeteySödes]

Lotta toys, not enough boys.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I hear that Fear ... there doesn’t seem to be enough bodies. But I need bloody good shooting if I’m not having strong assault (assault is a bit dead now that the Nids can fall back and assault).

 

If I spend those 260 points on another 2 GH/ RB squads ....... is that going to do it?

 

HDL

[Gherrick]

I'm a huge fan of WG with jump packs sporting SB/CS with 1-2 having SS instead of CS. That is a lot of shots and has a ton of mobility to get around as needed. I'd often take 2 of those WG units at ~125 points, IIRC.

[TiguriusX]

New FAQ changing reserve rules

 

Half your points on board instead of units now

 

Also can only deep strike into your own dz on turn 1. Big attempt to nerf unfair alpha strike builds

[PeteySödes]

New FAQ changing reserve rules

 

Half your points on board instead of units now

 

Also can only deep strike into your own dz on turn 1. Big attempt to nerf unfair alpha strike builds

 

GS cults are exempted, expect some shenanigans still.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Only DS into your own DZ???? That is massive!

 

I need to get a link to that ...